USAPA Files

[EastUS]

Listen most of us don't want your widebody flying because that would entail a long commute back east. I believe you could fence us off even longer and most westies wouldn't complain. In fact by your own vacancy bids the "coveted" widebody flying doesn't go to the most senior pilots anyway which leads me to believe it isn't that desirable. I am gong to go with this "new ball game" concept and what I like about it is that Nic recognizes that a senior CA at either company will remain a senior CA at the new company (aside from the infamous 518) and you know what else? A junior FO is also still a junior FO at the new company. DOH = staple.

All have heard the "nobody wants to move east" bit for some time now...and few reasonably believe anything of the sort. A great many of us have been previously displaced from western, and other bases, and know what the commute's like....but most follow the work in the end. Why is there the battle cry of "no fences!" out west?

"A junior FO is also still a junior FO at the new company" Momentarilly true, but that completely ignores the reality within which we live = our 'junior fo's" for the most part are all ex captains, or could have bid such earlier. None of your juniors see anything so obscene as the potential to live out their entire careers without any possible upgrades. We've an abundance who would suffer exactly that, and all underneath people with huge disparities in years worked and time flown. The whole Nic thing's monstrous at every level for all of us. It's only served to create a "perfect storm" within which our two groups, in any attempts at becoming one, are foundering. Thanks a whole heckuva' lot Alpo...really nice work here. Obtaining any cohesive group unity for both east and west will indeed be extremely difficult for us all, and apparently impossible under Alpo's "leadership". In any case: One rarely seeks the assistance of the arsonist when his/her house is on fire.

Piedmont 1984's above posting covers the sentiments of most of us who would not be hideously assaulted via Nic: "But there are about 1000 of my fellow pilots who's careers have been devastated by Nicolau. Loyalty is important to me. And my loyalty to those I have shared the cockpit with these past decades is greater than my precarious connection to a group of mostly youngsters out west......" Would you have us think otherwise for the pesonal convenience of the moment? What type of people would we be to do so?

We've a great deal of ground to cover before closing the chaotic gulf between our groups so handilly engineered by Alpo's delivery of their latest bastard child.

 

[b737fo]

All have heard the "nobody wants to move east" bit for some time now...and few reasonably believe anything of the sort. A great many of us have been previously displaced from western, and other bases, and know what the commute's like....but most follow the work in the end. Why is there the battle cry of "no fences!" out west?

"A junior FO is also still a junior FO at the new company" Momentarilly true, but that completely ignores the reality within which we live = our 'junior fo's" for the most part are all ex captains, or could have bid such earlier. None of your juniors see anything so obscene as the potential to live out their entire careers without any possible upgrades. We've an abundance who would suffer exactly that, and all underneath people with huge disparities in years worked and time flown. The whole Nic thing's monstrous at every level for all of us. It's only served to create a "perfect storm" within which our two groups, in any attempts at becoming one, are foundering. Thanks a whole heckuva' lot Alpo...really nice work here. Obtaining any cohesive group unity for both east and west will indeed be extremely difficult for us all, and apparently impossible under Alpo's "leadership". In any case: One rarely seeks the assistance of the arsonist when his/her house is on fire.

Piedmont 1984's above posting covers the sentiments of most of us who would not be hideously assaulted via Nic: "But there are about 1000 of my fellow pilots who's careers have been devastated by Nicolau. Loyalty is important to me. And my loyalty to those I have shared the cockpit with these past decades is greater than my precarious connection to a group of mostly youngsters out west......" Would you have us think otherwise for the pesonal convenience of the moment? What type of people would we be to do so?

We've a great deal of ground to cover before closing the chaotic gulf between our groups so handilly engineered by Alpo's delivery of their latest bastard child.

Those who follow the work have made a decision that was placed upon them by aforementioned displacements. Those who were previous captains and then found themselves getting furloughed or close to it were victims of several management teams who were more interested in their own pockets then the well being of the employees. In a previous life I too was one of those who was a captain and then saw the pain of those around me get furloughed while I became a somewhat junior fo. That is when I made a decision to change my environment and find another place that would value what I can offer. A place that other AAA furloughed people also came to. I don't get where, for example, a mid level captain on the west should sacrifice and lose relative position because another pilot had faced such hard career stumbles (i.e. furlough) at a different carrier in a different time. Your junior fos are junior fos and what position they held in a previous time frame is not what they brought to this merger. I also find it hard to believe that a "cohesive" group of east and west pilots can be forged out of attempting to remove the bargaining agent most supported by the pilots out west. It will be a standoff and unfortunately we the pilots of US Airways will be the losers.

 

[prechilill]

I don't get where, for example, a mid level captain on the west should sacrifice and lose relative position because another pilot had faced such hard career stumbles (i.e. furlough) at a different carrier in a different time.

The east's position has nothing to do about logic, Piedmont1984 stated very eloquently their position on DOH and Nic is strictly from an emotional sense of loyalty to their fellow pilots.

 

[luvn737s]

I don't get where, for example, a mid level captain on the west should sacrifice and lose relative position because another pilot had faced such hard career stumbles (i.e. furlough) at a different carrier in a different time. Your junior fos are junior fos and what position they held in a previous time frame is not what they brought to this merger. I also find it hard to believe that a "cohesive" group of east and west pilots can be forged out of attempting to remove the bargaining agent most supported by the pilots out west. It will be a standoff and unfortunately we the pilots of US Airways will be the losers.

FOLKS You have been warned about using logic in explaining the issue to the east. Any further displays of logic will be dealt with severely and referred to a local U-SAPs representitive. Please stick to the established monologue, "DOH, burn it down, nothing to lose, All my soorrows....young wippersnapper, dc al coda.

: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

[Piedmont1984]

The east's position has nothing to do about logic, Piedmont1984 stated very eloquently their position on DOH and Nic is strictly from an emotional sense of loyalty to their fellow pilots.

Yes, the east position is highly charged with emotion. No, I will not concede that you have the market cornered on logic in regard to this issue. I am inclined to prefer emotion to logic when getting into a scrap.

I am not a fanatic. I do not suggest we deliberately burn the place down. But as I argued on these boards back in June - then it was with AWA320, Aquagreen, and others who were calling our bluff with respect to the cards - if ALPA did not step up and take responsibility for a deeply flawed award, if they simply did the Pontious Pilot routine, then we would be stepping out onto a very slippery slope where events would carry all of us faster and farther than we may have anticipated.

So far it's been a hell of a ride.

 

[EastUS]

The east's position has nothing to do about logic, Piedmont1984 stated very eloquently their position on DOH and Nic is strictly from an emotional sense of loyalty to their fellow pilots.

I see. Loyalty is somehow "illogical" in your mind? :blink: A telling trait there. 'Tis easier to understand you're being so fully supportive of Alpo and their insanity. After all: What could provide more of a polar opposite to typical Alpoid "thought", or "process" than any group with "an emotional sense of loyalty to their fellow pilots."? Forgive me if I now feel that you personally offer little incentive to make one wish for your speedy adoption into the east group's flying, much less the continuation of Alpo on any level.

"The east's position has nothing to do about logic," You must, of course, be "right", we're all just completely insane lunatics out here concerning ourselves with illogical idiocies such as "Loyalty",,,and:We simply cannot fathom, nor fully appreciate, the wise, intricate, and exquisite "logic", that would place someone still in their probationary year ahead of any person with nearly two decades of unbroken service. You win...your thinking's truly astonishing, and fully awes me

b737fo:"I also find it hard to believe that a "cohesive" group of east and west pilots can be forged out of attempting to remove the bargaining agent most supported by the pilots out west. It will be a standoff and unfortunately we the pilots of US Airways will be the losers."

The standoff, most regretably, is already firmly in place it seems. How we can eventually get through it's up to us all in the end. We'll all be offered an actual choice, and an actual vote on a major issue of great importance in the fairly near future...and that's something never much to be seen under Alpo.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

......... But could we please move along this decert drive a bit faster so we can reach its inevitable failure ASAP?

Wishful thinking on your part. Why don't you call the NMB and submit your request for more speed, I bet you will carry a lot of weight with them.

BTW. We are now over 3100 known cards on file. Won't know the true figure since the NMB hasn't released the data on cards submitted directly.

 

[luvn737s]

BTW. We are now over 3100 known cards on file. Won't know the true figure since the NMB hasn't released the data on cards submitted directly.

Well thank you for passing along the false figure.

 

[luvn737s]

I see. Loyalty is somehow "illogical" in your mind?

The brand that U-SAPs is peddling certainly is. Twisting the screwing of people out of significant money and time with their families while stoking them with fantastic fears of impending furlough is far from "Loyalty". It's a rouse to exact vengeance on their favorite target: ALPA. Of course when they see that ALPA wasn't the cause of all their problems, they'll pick another group, say the west pilots. When that doesn't pan out for them they'll move on to someone else.

USAPA- "If you aren't part of our solution, you're part of the problem. Ah heck, who are we kidding, you're the problem either way."

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (prechilill @ Nov 26 2007, 05:10 PM)
The east's position has nothing to do about logic, Piedmont1984 stated very eloquently their position on DOH and Nic is strictly from an emotional sense of loyalty to their fellow pilots.


EastUS: "I see. Loyalty is somehow "illogical" in your mind?"

prechilill: "The brand that U-SAPs is peddling certainly is."

I didn't realize that "loyalty to their fellow pilots." was subject to flavors or "brand" selection, nor does any attempted spin on your part alter anything. The rest is unworthy of direct address, in that your meaningless fantasies are your personal issues to deal with.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Well thank you for passing along the false figure.

Your welcome. No matter what you think, it's still the truth. If you're so well connected, why don't you tell all of us the exact figure then. Could I sense the emotion of denial creeping in here?

 

[PA18]

The situations were entirely different PI/US vis-a-vis US/AW. The overall makeup of the PI and US groups were much closer than the huge disparity in the US and AW groups. Back in the late 80s, only a very small number of pilots on both the PI and US side had ever been furloughed, and those furloughs were either fairly short-lived (controllers' strike) or from the early 1970s. In the aftermath of some really moronic and/or evil management, the furlough time of the US group is huge and recent. This makes the entire situation completely different than PI/US.

You are correct in that the huge disparity in the latest merger is at the bottom of the list, whereas the bottom pilots at both AAA and PAI were pretty even, as both were hiring at the time of the merger, and had nobody on furlough.

Had PAI won the Kagel arbitration, the disparity would have come at the top of the list. I remember many five-year PAI captains telling me with a perfectly straight face that they should be "equal" in seniority to a 19-year AAA captain, because their numbers were the same on their respective seniority lists. IOW, they wanted to gain 14 years seniority, after having no qualms about stealing 11 years seniority from a senior Empire pilot.

Look, I realize this is all in the past. And I certainly wasn't going after Piedmont1984 personally (and I appreciate his very gracious reply).

It's just when I hear or read anybody from the East saying "DOH is the only fair way to integrate", or "We've always gone DOH", I tend to react the same way Curley does when he hears "Pop Goes The Weasel".

 

[fr8tmastr]

The brand that U-SAPs is peddling certainly is. Twisting the screwing of people out of significant money and time with their families while stoking them with fantastic fears of impending furlough is far from "Loyalty". It's a rouse to exact vengeance on their favorite target: ALPA. Of course when they see that ALPA wasn't the cause of all their problems, they'll pick another group, say the west pilots. When that doesn't pan out for them they'll move on to someone else.

USAPA- "If you aren't part of our solution, you're part of the problem. Ah heck, who are we kidding, you're the problem either way."

Management would not hardly even talk to the pilot group for two years, and yet you find a way to blame the East for your not getting your raise.

You can blame the East for not wanting you to take their seniority away, but there is no way you can blame them for Dougies BS!

 

[fr8tmastr]

Your welcome. No matter what you think, it's still the truth. If you're so well connected, why don't you tell all of us the exact figure then. Could I sense the emotion of denial creeping in here?

What happened to AWA320 pilot, He was claiming that he "KNEW" that there were not nearly enough votes and USAPA would never even file.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

What happened to AWA320 pilot, He was claiming that he "KNEW" that there were not nearly enough votes and USAPA would never even file.

AWA320 wrote Nov 7, 07, 12:52p.m. Post#78 ALPA Thread:

Well I heard from a little bird that you are several hundred cards short so why do we just end the drama for both sides and file the cards so that way we both know

I wonder what his "little bird" is telling him now? After all the insults, false predictions and lies, he disappeared. Oh well.