USAPA Files

[767jetz]

767 any comments on your mec letter and their burn the house down comments?


Ual to Delta, we will burn the house.

YAWN.

My only comment is that you, EastUs, and the rest amuse me, and bore me, all at the same time. Nothing new or useful to say. (yes... I am laughing at you, not with you.)

Care to quote EXACTLY where anything in that statement talks about "burning the house down." Never mind. I know you can't. But keep trying to spin everything in your direction. It doesn't change the fact that you are living the consequences of your actions.

Of course you'll never see it that way. Yes, Yes... we know what a victim you are. Poor, poor you. Everyone else is to blame. Boo Hoo, and all that. <sigh>

over and out, my blind and bitter peers...

767jetz

 

[Freighterguynow]

Trust and believe in us, do no independent thinking, and all will be well. Keep sending in that money though. Dont forget that in any future merger under our august Alpo umbrella, that we'll be just as likely to produce another abortion that sells out ALL of you, east and west, if it makes our lives easier.Thanks ....Suckers

Now THAT was funny.

Thanks for the laugh EastUS - I needed it this morning.

 

[Freighterguynow]

At last an innovative solution. On the other hand, both sides have to give up their position as far as the other side's bases are concerned.

However, with the expectation that most widebodies and new flying will be in the East, it would require getting the West to give up their Nic "final and binding" position for that flying, which means they wouldn't see much of it. Then there's furloughs - which list is used? How about new bases (if any)? Which list governs in those? Plus, which list will be used if another merger comes along? Will East be OK with using Nic for that? Or West OK with DOH?

So we're really talking about step 2 again. There's lots of options for that step, but until the current stalemate gets solved they're useless. Which apparently is what sharktooth can't grasp.

Jim

I think this is a workable solution. The additional flying opportunities on the East were not brought to the merger by the West. It is a benefit the West pilots can capture without harming an East pilot as the Nic award will.

As to furloughs, if the West downsizes then absent the merger, west pilots would be furloughed. They would now have an opportunity to move East. With newhires arriving on the East, they can be assured of holding a job vs being unemployed - and again, they would not be taking jobs at the expense of East pilots.

Which list in the event of a merger? Well that would be negotiated at the time between all 3 parties.

 

[b737fo]

I think this is a workable solution. The additional flying opportunities on the East were not brought to the merger by the West. It is a benefit the West pilots can capture without harming an East pilot as the Nic award will.

The additional opportunities were not brought to the merger by the East either. They were the result of a healthier new combined company. I don't think there was financing available for E190s or additional widebody aircraft without being merged.

 

[EastUS]

YAWN.

My only comment is that you, EastUs, and the rest amuse me, and bore me, all at the same time. Nothing new or useful to say. (yes... I am laughing at you, not with you.)

Care to quote EXACTLY where anything in that statement talks about "burning the house down." Never mind. I know you can't. But keep trying to spin everything in your direction. It doesn't change the fact that you are living the consequences of your actions.

Of course you'll never see it that way. Yes, Yes... we know what a victim you are. Poor, poor you. Everyone else is to blame. Boo Hoo, and all that. <sigh>

over and out, my blind and bitter peers...

767jetz

"It doesn't change the fact that you are living the consequences of your actions." Gee..and all this time I'd thought that we, east and west, are living the consequences of Alpoid insanity, brewed up in a vile and tiny cauldron by equally tiny minds and abilities. I still can't recall any line pilots having anything whatsoever to do with establishing this nightmare.

"over and out, my blind and bitter peers..." Aww....say it's not so little one

 

[767jetz]

Gee..and all this time I'd thought that we, east and west, are living the consequences of Alpoid insanity

Not surprising considering your inability to accept responsibility for anything, or even holding your elected fellow pilot leaders accountable. You poor, poor victim.

"over and out, my blind and bitter peers..." Aww....say it's not so little one

Sportin' wood already, huh? Not so fast skippy. Better put that small and unimpressive thing away. :blink:

Over and out refers to the pathetic hypothesis of UA pilots "burning down the house" and wasting any further bandwidth on the subject. I'm still around, in full support of the West. Hope you enjoy the holidays anyway.

 

[EastUS]

The additional opportunities were not brought to the merger by the East either. They were the result of a healthier new combined company. I don't think there was financing available for E190s or additional widebody aircraft without being merged.

OK. Let's go with a "new combined company". How does "relative" anything properly fit into such then?

Was there ever ANY viable platform from which to project that the west would EVER have otherwise seen widebodies with trans atlantic routes?. What's the logical case for insistence on west pilots getting said flying ahead of far more actually senior folks out east? If we're to go with the "new ball game" concept; doesn't that make obscene levels of seniority obliteration even more absurd? Given that the west group, by virtue of relative youth, stands to essentially inherit the entire airline in but a few years...the whole situation's ridiculous, and only exists via Alpoid bungling of the first order.

 

[EastUS]

I'm still around, in full support of the West.

Whew! That's gotta' be a huge relief for them.

Do keep your well considered postings spewing forth good sir. You serve as an example of Alpo's finest "thinking", and one couldn't hope for more with a decert election forthcoming

 

[PA18]

DOH would be the foundation of any agreement. What is placed on that foundation can be as elaborate as the two sides wish it to be.

Any merger between two union pilot groups should follow precedent, tradition and history. Numerous factors should be considered, but the underlying and most compelling factor when merging two groups of the same craft has always been, and should continue to be, date of hire.

ALPA decided - or allowed - itself to move away from this long standing and well established principle; as a result we find ourselves in the current predicament.

Like the poet said, "Good fences make good neighbors".

I'm guessing by your handle that you were hired by Piedmont in 1984.

Were you for DOH in the Empire merger?

Were you for DOH in the USAir merger?

It wasn't just ALPA, but Piedmont ALPA that chose to stray from the DOH precedent, prior to the 1991 change in ALPA merger policy. They stapled the Empire pilots to the bottom of the list (behind a group that been offered a job but hadn't even started class yet -- talk about "Save Dave"); then they fought vehemently against DOH in the USAir merger.

Ironically, what the PAI side thought was perfectly justified and "fair" to ask for in the AAA merger is almost exactly what the AWA side got from Mr. Nicolau in the latest merger. So if it was perfectly "fair" in 1988, how come it's such a travesty now?

 

[sharktooth]

Then you proceeded to explain why DOH was the proper way to create the underlying list - which would require either capitulation by the West or be forced on the West - exactly what I said were the only ways to end the stalemate.

Why are you so certain that the "West", embracing DOH, would be either capitulation or a loss? Either or is not the way out.

As long as there is verbal interaction, there is no stalemate.

I admit, asking someone to give up their winning lottery ticket is a tall order, but when one makes the case that holding the "winning lottery ticket" will become a millstone in the not too distant future.

It seems to me that you have restricted yourself to a two-dimensional rut that obscures your vision of the future. Try something different.

 

[767jetz]

Was there ever ANY viable platform from which to project that the west would EVER have otherwise seen widebodies with trans atlantic routes?. What's the logical case for insistence on west pilots getting said flying ahead of far more actually senior folks out east?

Are you really this ignorant, or are you just pretending to be? For someone with such self-proclaimed vast experience and understanding on "what's right" and "how things are supposed to work," you certainly demonstrate a lack of fundamental understanding of how our industry works.

Let me clue you in. Your puny international operation is a product of limited feed and domestic reach. Ever hear of code sharing. Where do you think the extra revenue comes from? Answer: additional customers fed into your route system that would not have had access to said system otherwise. Therefore, it should be easy for even a simpleton to comprehend that any additional expansion to your international operation is partially due to having greater access to more customers thanks to the West.

stands to essentially inherit the entire airline in but a few years...

Correction... in a few years PLUS 5 years. Or do you also conveniently forget that the East attrition will slow to a trickle when the retirement age is raised to 65.

 

[b737fo]

OK. Let's go with a "new combined company". How does "relative" anything properly fit into such then?

Was there ever ANY viable platform from which to project that the west would EVER have otherwise seen widebodies with trans atlantic routes?. What's the logical case for insistence on west pilots getting said flying ahead of far more actually senior folks out east? If we're to go with the "new ball game" concept; doesn't that make obscene levels of seniority obliteration even more absurd? Given that the west group, by virtue of relative youth, stands to essentially inherit the entire airline in but a few years...the whole situation's ridiculous, and only exists via Alpoid bungling of the first order.

Listen most of us don't want your widebody flying because that would entail a long commute back east. I believe you could fence us off even longer and most westies wouldn't complain. In fact by your own vacancy bids the "coveted" widebody flying doesn't go to the most senior pilots anyway which leads me to believe it isn't that desirable. I am gong to go with this "new ball game" concept and what I like about it is that Nic recognizes that a senior CA at either company will remain a senior CA at the new company (aside from the infamous 518) and you know what else? A junior FO is also still a junior FO at the new company. DOH = staple.

 

[767jetz]

Do keep your well considered postings spewing forth good sir.

Thanks. I will.

You serve as an example of Alpo's finest "thinking", and one couldn't hope for more with a decert election forthcoming

Thanks again. But could we please move along this decert drive a bit faster so we can reach its inevitable failure ASAP?

 

[Piedmont1984]

I'm guessing by your handle that you were hired by Piedmont in 1984.

Were you for DOH in the Empire merger?

Were you for DOH in the USAir merger?

It wasn't just ALPA, but Piedmont ALPA that chose to stray from the DOH precedent, prior to the 1991 change in ALPA merger policy. They stapled the Empire pilots to the bottom of the list (behind a group that been offered a job but hadn't even started class yet -- talk about "Save Dave"); then they fought vehemently against DOH in the USAir merger.

Ironically, what the PAI side thought was perfectly justified and "fair" to ask for in the AAA merger is almost exactly what the AWA side got from Mr. Nicolau in the latest merger. So if it was perfectly "fair" in 1988, how come it's such a travesty now?

Fair question. I live on 1984 Piedmont Circle. Just kidding, yes you are correct.

With no disrespect to the Empire pilots, during that merger I was preoccuppied with something else and so the entire process was pretty much off my radar. I did not view it as a career changing event however, since Empire only had a couple hundred pilots and Piedmont was expanding so fast you could actually hear it.

In the USAir merger I did what was best for me, but I did not prevail and I took a pretty good career hit. Yet, in the aftermath and upon reflection, I accepted DOH as a fair and equitable arrangement. I did not march on Herndon, stop dues check-off, terminate my contributions to ALPA-PAC, cease wearing my pin and support an independent, in-house union.

This time I took a much smaller career hit, same relative position, the fellow slotted ahead of me was hired 4.5 years after I was. I can probably live with that. But there are about 1000 of my fellow pilots who's careers have been devastated by Nicolau. Loyalty is important to me. And my loyalty to those I have shared the cockpit with these past decades is greater than my precarious connection to a group of mostly youngsters out west who view me as nothing but an Easthole.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm guessing by your handle that you were hired by Piedmont in 1984.

Were you for DOH in the Empire merger?

Were you for DOH in the USAir merger?

It wasn't just ALPA, but Piedmont ALPA that chose to stray from the DOH precedent, prior to the 1991 change in ALPA merger policy. They stapled the Empire pilots to the bottom of the list (behind a group that been offered a job but hadn't even started class yet -- talk about "Save Dave"); then they fought vehemently against DOH in the USAir merger.

Ironically, what the PAI side thought was perfectly justified and "fair" to ask for in the AAA merger is almost exactly what the AWA side got from Mr. Nicolau in the latest merger. So if it was perfectly "fair" in 1988, how come it's such a travesty now?

The situations were entirely different PI/US vis-a-vis US/AW. The overall makeup of the PI and US groups were much closer than the huge disparity in the US and AW groups. Back in the late 80s, only a very small number of pilots on both the PI and US side had ever been furloughed, and those furloughs were either fairly short-lived (controllers' strike) or from the early 1970s. In the aftermath of some really moronic and/or evil management, the furlough time of the US group is huge and recent. This makes the entire situation completely different than PI/US.