USAPA Files

[sharktooth]

Unless one side submits to the other's demands, the only solution is for the underlying list to be forced on one side or the other, but then the "winning" side will have no reason to seek solutions to the implementation problems - conditions and restrictions.

True, but only if one limits oneself to a "black vs white" visualization of a problem.

A desired solution is to take into account all "expected" experience along with valuing a career in a carrier by not jumping ship at every jibe. A desired result would strengthen career expectations by smoothing future changes, allowing corporate gyrations according to their sometimes deluded and befuddled maneuvers, yet allowing a pilot a reasonably expected transition into retirement.

DOH does this. "nic" does not.

Allowing "nic" to stand opens a hallway of doors, each denoting a criteria "du jour" which would hardly provide confidence in any kind of career progression.

With DOH, your twenty-five years actually counts for something. Otherwise, what if the next "nic", say a "nack", rules that seniority will be by chronological age? What about by flight time? What if it changes each time there is an acquisition or merger? What kind of career would that be?

There are other issues.

Piedmont basically stapled Empire then asked for slotting from Arbitrator Kagel. When Kagels request for Piedmont to go back and "slot" the Empire dudes was turned down, he, in turn, turned down Piedmonts request for slotting. Decisions have consequences.

I can see in ten years a two year start up merging with US/AWA and an arbitrator doing "relative slotting", putting a twenty year AWA pilot behind a less than one year wet behind the ears twenty-one year old, citing a previous "merger" outcome as his basis. I can see the potential future horror show because it happens now.

DOH can all but be rendered invisible with conditions and restrictions, protecting a pilots life investment for their career. "nic" cannot. They are not two opposite ends of a spectrum that one can negotiate some middle ground. They are doorways, one to a relatively secure career progression, the other opening every possible outcome imaginable. Try not to confuse the two.

 

[luvn737s]

With DOH, your twenty-five years actually counts for something. Otherwise, what if the next "nic", say a "nack", rules that seniority will be by chronological age? What about by flight time? What if it changes each time there is an acquisition or merger? What kind of career would that be?

You need to go find an adult to explain why Nicolau rendered the decision he did. It was not capricious in the least. If two pilot groups had similar demographics, then slotting would approximate DOH. When they aren't (as in AWA/US) slotting is the only fair integration, especially given the no bump, no flush restrictions.

I can see in ten years a two year start up merging with US/AWA and an arbitrator doing "relative slotting", putting a twenty year AWA pilot behind a less than one year wet behind the ears twenty-one year old, citing a previous "merger" outcome as his basis. I can see the potential future horror show because it happens now.

I really doubt you believe your own fear mongering. Why would there be a merger between a start-up and US? Only in the event US lands back in bankruptcy (in which case US would be parted out after the fact, IMHO) would a start-up be involved. So try looking at more realistic scenarios.

 

[Mtnman928]

I really doubt you believe your own fear mongering. Why would there be a merger between a start-up and US? Only in the event US lands back in bankruptcy (in which case US would be parted out after the fact, IMHO) would a start-up be involved. So try looking at more realistic scenarios.
[/quote]

Let's look at this from another angle. Say furloughs occur, do we furlough the 25 year pilot or the 1 year pilot?

MM

 

[BoeingBoy]

DOH does this. "nic" does not.

Or to take that treatise and distill it down to essentials.....if only the other side would give in to my side's demands, everything else would fall into place pretty easily.

Like I said, as long as the chasm exists between the two sides over how the basic list is put together, there will be no solution. Your treatise merely served to further illustrate (as unnecessary as that is) the width of that chasm. You used a lot of words just to say that anything but a list based on DOH is unacceptable to the East.

Jim

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

You started out with a very good question. Then you ruined it by hurling insults. How about if you answer this question then. What will you do if USAPA is elected? I have heard some of the possible responses, but I'm just asking you. See that was easy, no insults just a straight forward question.

Just what I figured. The USAPA gerbils have no real answers - no fallback position. Its all or none. And the last part of my question was not an insult - I feel it will be a pretty fair representation of the reaction following USAPA defeat.

 

[sharktooth]

Or to take that treatise and distill it down to essentials.....if only the other side would give in to my side's demands, everything else would fall into place pretty easily.

Like I said, as long as the chasm exists between the two sides over how the basic list is put together, there will be no solution. Your treatise merely served to further illustrate (as unnecessary as that is) the width of that chasm. You used a lot of words just to say that anything but a list based on DOH is unacceptable to the East.

Jim

Jim,

Two different things entirely. Attempting to place one against the other is like comparing apples to quarks.

and, no, I am saying DOH guarantees stability. The "nic" guarantees nothing in the future but insecurity, for all.

 

[nostradamus]

I am wondering something. What will the east do if the USAPA ploy falls through, and ALPA is retained on the property? Will they begin to "follow the law" then? Will they finally abide by the agreement that is called binding arbitration? Will they open their eyes and see that there is pain on the west from the Nic award too? Or will they simply continue to whine, stall, and slobber in their beer like a bunch of frat brats who's football team just lost the homecoming game?

"Will they open their eyes and see that there is pain on the west from the Nic award too?"

I requested the inventory of pain that would be felt by AWA pilots due to NIC award. I have yet to receive a response. What exactly does your stapler icon imply?

 

[sharktooth]

Just what I figured. The USAPA gerbils have no real answers - no fallback position. Its all or none. And the last part of my question was not an insult - I feel it will be a pretty fair representation of the reaction following USAPA defeat.

You have never seen an entire airline locked at the gate, have you?

When the copilot locks the door, accuses you of terrorist intentions and cleans your clock for you, what will you do?

Have a good day, sir!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two different things entirely.

Just another angle to convince the world that DOH is the only basis to use. In other words, you want the West to accept DOH while they're waiting for the East to run out of options and (be forced to) accept Nik. Until one side loses this fight, talking about anything else is just a waste of hot air. Unless you've got another way to construct the list that would be acceptable to both sides?

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Just another angle to convince the world that DOH is the only basis to use. In other words, you want the West to accept DOH while they're waiting for the East to run out of options and (be forced to) accept Nik. Until one side loses this fight, talking about anything else is just a waste of hot air. Unless you've got another way to construct the list that would be acceptable to both sides?

Jim

It's certainly not the ONLY basis possible...just the most rational and consistent one possible within any trade group. Any merged list could always be determined via tarot cards, astrological signs, dice tossing, arbitration, or one of countless other games of pure chance and insanity.

 

[sharktooth]

Just another angle to convince the world that DOH is the only basis to use. In other words, you want the West to accept DOH while they're waiting for the East to run out of options and (be forced to) accept Nik. Until one side loses this fight, talking about anything else is just a waste of hot air. Unless you've got another way to construct the list that would be acceptable to both sides?

Jim

No sir.

I am simply saying that "nic" and DOH are not on the same playing field. Choosing "nic" puts one on a different universe altogether and opens up all sorts of unexpected, unanticipated and negative implications altogether for all.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Any merged list could always be determined via tarot cards, astrological signs, dice tossing, arbitration, or one of countless other games of pure chance and insanity.

Are you suggesting one of those methods as a compromise?

I am simply saying that "nic" and DOH are not on the same playing field. Choosing "nic" puts one on a different universe altogether and opens up all sorts of unexpected, unanticipated and negative implications altogether for all.

All you're still doing is explaining why DOH is the only acceptable method of constructing the list. Which means you're still saying that DOH is the only acceptable method. Which is what I originally said was the East's position.

To repeat my original point - as long as East insists on using DOH to construct the list and West insists on the Nic award there is no solution short of one side or the other being forced to accept the other's position.

Jim

 

[sharktooth]

ATo repeat my original point - as long as East insists on using DOH to construct the list and West insists on the Nic award there is no solution short of one side or the other being forced to accept the other's position.

Jim

There is always a solution, though, with your mindset, infinity seems a probable resolution. Dispensing your biases would help.

 

[nostradamus]

Are you suggesting one of those methods as a compromise?



All you're still doing is explaining why DOH is the only acceptable method of constructing the list. Which means you're still saying that DOH is the only acceptable method. Which is what I originally said was the East's position.

To repeat my original point - as long as East insists on using DOH to construct the list and West insists on the Nic award there is no solution short of one side or the other being forced to accept the other's position.

Jim

Piedmont Airlines (the original) stapled Empire Pilots on the bottom of their list, to their own personal gain. Piedmont then fought for slotting during the Usairways combination. Now they want date of hire. In order for some folks not to appear hypocritical, they choose to defend Nic so they feel better about themselves living a comfortable life afterwards. This is another form of NIC fever.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There is always a solution

Ok, name a solution (any solution) which doesn't require either side to abandon their position or be forced to accept the other's position.

Dispensing your biases would help.

I don't dispense biases - everyone seems to have an adequate supply, especially you. So I assume that should have been "Dispensing with your biases...."

Jim