USAirways Purchases Domain Name for AA Merger

[FWAAA]

Yea, those guys that just started Bus school are a figment of my imagination. The first 321's are going to be used west coast to Hawaii. But you're right. Lots of moving parts, so anything can change.

I've enjoyed your posts today - they're well written and I think they're a lot more facutal than most. But unless you're talking about A321neos, I don't think AA will be flying any classic A320s or A321s to Hawaii. There's that pesky range issue that causes westbound A320s in the winter to sometines need more fuel on their flights between the east coast and CA, especially the jetBlue A320s. Without any gas stations (or dry land) between Dockweiler Beach and the Big Island, I don't think AA would risk the potential water landing that might result. No other airline is flying A321s or A320s to Hawaii, and I think the reason may be range (or lack of it on a reliable, day in, day out basis).

 

[psa8979]

I SECOND THAT BROTHER. SHOW! ME! THE! MONEY! DP. THOSE OVER 55 WILL BE GONE at both LCC and AMR.

 

[PullUp]

Yea, those guys that just started Bus school are a figment of my imagination. The first 321's are going to be used west coast to Hawaii. But you're right. Lots of moving parts, so anything can change.

You know, you asked what my price was and I told you. Now you say it doesn't matter because the wizards behind the curtain could care less if labor is on board. Then Kirby says he need labor support for it to work...

I guess we'll see when the dust settles...

Have a good weekend.

Thanks for the interesting discourse and non-intimidating tone of your reply.
Here's just one more observation:
I saw the proposed pay rates for AA equipment going forward, and the AB320 series pays 141 versus a 737/MD88 paying 160.
With the airbus and the boeing being essentially the same size airplanes, why the disparity?
I would be very suspicious that after the dust settles, the boeing orders would be cancelled, in favor of more airbii.
Also, it should be noted that 141 is the current west rate for TOS captains. And LCC has a boatload of AB type hulls.
Make of it what you will, just pointing it out....
Cheers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

[quote name='PullUp' timestamp='1331991171' post='880941]With the airbus and the boeing being essentially the same size airplanes, why the disparity?[/quote]

Believe it or not, US didn't write the book or bankruptcy rules and everyone else has to do the same. Although US has less than a $40 difference between the A319 and A333 captain TOS and the majority of pilots ratified it, everybody doesn't have to have a fairly narrow pay range. The A320 will be in the 135 seat area since AA has announced a three cabin configuration - FC, E+ and E. The 7378 will be about 150 seats. I think you'll see that AA's proposed pay scale just has bigger differences between clearly different sized planes than US.

I would be very suspicious that after the dust settles, the boeing orders would be cancelled, in favor of more airbii.

Since AA has already confirmed and has financing for this years Boeing deliveries (with the Judge and Creditor's Committee approval) if any orders are in danger it may be the Airbus. But probably not. When you order 450+ airplanes and want to replace 200+ airplanes within 5 or so years it's hard to get that many from either Boeing or Airbus when you're talking about the most popular planes that already have more orders outstanding than any other plane.

Just pointing it out...

Jim

 

[PullUp]

Since AA has already confirmed and has financing for this years Boeing deliveries (with the Judge and Creditor's Committee approval) if any orders are in danger it may be the Airbus. But probably not. When you order 450+ airplanes and want to replace 200+ airplanes within 5 or so years it's hard to get that many from either Boeing or Airbus when you're talking about the most popular planes that already have more orders outstanding than any other plane.
Jim

Jim,
We all know that the airbus type consists of four differently sized aircraft. A 321 can carry about as many as a 737, n'est pas? And under the proposed rates, guys flying the 'bus will get 20 less/hr flying those a/c.
We also know that management fibs, obfuscates, and outright lies while looking us right in the eye - without as much as a flinch. It's a valid question: why are the aircraft replacing the MD's paying 20 less/hr and is that acceptable to the AA pilots?
If you can't imagine a scenario where the 737's disappear from AA's inventory, you'd better take off those rose colored glasses and stop drinking the koolaid.
Just sayin'.
Cheers.

 

[AAviator]

Or, you could put on corrective lenses and re-read the pay rates. Nobody voted on anything, or is supporting anything at face value.

Report back when you re-read page one of the full term sheet..

 

[Move2CLT]

Or, you could put on corrective lenses and re-read the pay rates. Nobody voted on anything, or is supporting anything at face value.

Report back when you re-read page one of the full term sheet..

Asking an eastie to read something and gather the facts by himself?!?

Who are you?

 

[FWAAA]

Thanks for the interesting discourse and non-intimidating tone of your reply.
Here's just one more observation:
I saw the proposed pay rates for AA equipment going forward, and the AB320 series pays 141 versus a 737/MD88 paying 160.
With the airbus and the boeing being essentially the same size airplanes, why the disparity?
I would be very suspicious that after the dust settles, the boeing orders would be cancelled, in favor of more airbii.
Also, it should be noted that 141 is the current west rate for TOS captains. And LCC has a boatload of AB type hulls.
Make of it what you will, just pointing it out....
Cheers.

No, you didn't read the Term Sheet correctly. AA is proposing pay banding that would include all MD-80s, 738s, A320s and A321s in the same pay group. A319s, 737-700s and similar would be in their own cheaper group. AA currently flies no A319s or 737-700s.

Here's the term sheet: http://www.restructuringamr.com/documents/APA%20Company%20Term%20Sheet_1113_01Feb2012%20FINAL.pdf

Believe it or not, US didn't write the book or bankruptcy rules and everyone else has to do the same. Although US has less than a $40 difference between the A319 and A333 captain TOS and the majority of pilots ratified it, everybody doesn't have to have a fairly narrow pay range. The A320 will be in the 135 seat area since AA has announced a three cabin configuration - FC, E+ and E. The 7378 will be about 150 seats. I think you'll see that AA's proposed pay scale just has bigger differences between clearly different sized planes than US.

BoeingBoy: PullUp has taken you down a path that AA has not proposed. The pay bands do not place 738s in a higher hourly pay group than the A320 or A321.

As an aside, with AA's version of extra legroom, I suspect that the 738s and A320s will be identically configured with 150 seats.

 

[AAviator]

Thanks for the interesting discourse and non-intimidating tone of your reply.

I would be very suspicious that after the dust settles, the boeing orders would be cancelled, in favor of more airbii.


Also, it should be noted that 141 is the current west rate for TOS captains. And LCC has a boatload of AB type hulls.


Make of it what you will, just pointing it out....
Cheers.

<chuckle>

did you go to the USA320Pilot school of connect the dots? Did you know AS 737 rate was inedtical to AA's rate before they got their last raise? I'll bet no one saw that one coming! I've noticed every major airline out there except WN has Airbii in their fleet. Even come REAL LCC's have Airbii. Just 'sayin..

Why favor the Airbus BTW?

http://www.centreforaviation.com/blogs/aviation-blog/american-airlines-defends-usd1-billion-revenue-growth-plan-69002

 

[AAviator]

I've enjoyed your posts today - they're well written and I think they're a lot more facutal than most. But unless you're talking about A321neos, I don't think AA will be flying any classic A320s or A321s to Hawaii. There's that pesky range issue that causes westbound A320s in the winter to sometines need more fuel on their flights between the east coast and CA, especially the jetBlue A320s. Without any gas stations (or dry land) between Dockweiler Beach and the Big Island, I don't think AA would risk the potential water landing that might result. No other airline is flying A321s or A320s to Hawaii, and I think the reason may be range (or lack of it on a reliable, day in, day out basis).

Thanks, and yes FWAAA, I did say the 321's but it's the NEO's that will have the capability for the west coast to Hawaii. Reading all the different info we're barraged with from multiple sources at work, I never gave a thought to the current generation 321 capabilities. I stand corrected.

 

[BoeingBoy]

BoeingBoy: PullUp has taken you down a path that AA has not proposed.

I knew I should have checked the term sheet instead of assuming that pullup was using an actual fact.

As an aside, with AA's version of extra legroom, I suspect that the 738s and A320s will be identically configured with 150 seats.

AA will be hard pressed to put 150 seats in the 320 (the specific version, not shorthand for the family as I thought pullup meant). US puts less than 150 with only 12 FC and no extra legroom section in coach. I probably mis-remembered but thought it was posted in the AA thread about extra legroom that the current 7378's (or NG3's for WT) had over 150 and that the extra legroom would reduce that to just under 150.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,
We all know that the airbus type consists of four differently sized aircraft.

Yes it does, but I also know that the A319 is in a lower pay group than the A321/738 per AA's term sheet for pilots. I wasn't sure which pay group the A320 is in so assumed it was in the lower pay group based on what you said about it paying less than the 738. But it seems that you were wrong about that. So one member of the 320-series, the smallest AA is likely to get - will pay less than the 738 but you're talking about a 30-seat difference in capacity.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

AA will be hard pressed to put 150 seats in the 320 (the specific version, not shorthand for the family as I thought pullup meant). US puts less than 150 with only 12 FC and no extra legroom section in coach. I probably mis-remembered but thought it was posted in the AA thread about extra legroom that the current 7378's (or NG3's for WT) had over 150 and that the extra legroom would reduce that to just under 150.

D'Oh! You're right. I stand corrected. There's no way to squeeze 16 F seats plus extra legroom seats ahead of the exit rows and still cram 150 total seats on an Airbus A320. AA's 738s currently contain 16F/144Y for a total of 160. By removing one row ahead of the exit rows (and four additional seats) to make the extra legroom section, AA's 738s will contain 150 total seats (according to AA).

That leads me to a question: The A320 is heavier than a 738 and, because of the extra six inches of diameter, it burns more fuel punching its way thru the air. It's range-challenged on westbound transcon flights. And now it turns out that it can't seat as many people as the comparable Boeing 737. So why have airlines made the A320 so popular and why did AA agree to buy such a dog? Is it because Boeing is incapable of delivering enough 737s fast enough to meet AA's five year plan? Is it because the purchase price of the A320 makes up for all those deficiencies?

 

[traderjake]

So why have airlines made the A320 so popular and why did AA agree to buy such a dog?

Have you ever sat in the middle seat of a 737 or 757 for 5 hours? It's a miserable experience.

The 320 is much more comfortable.

The airlines don't care about comfort but that's why passangers like the Airbus.

 

[767one]

D'Oh! You're right. I stand corrected. There's no way to squeeze 16 F seats plus extra legroom seats ahead of the exit rows and still cram 150 total seats on an Airbus A320. AA's 738s currently contain 16F/144Y for a total of 160. By removing one row ahead of the exit rows (and four additional seats) to make the extra legroom section, AA's 738s will contain 150 total seats (according to AA).

That leads me to a question: The A320 is heavier than a 738 and, because of the extra six inches of diameter, it burns more fuel punching its way thru the air. It's range-challenged on westbound transcon flights. And now it turns out that it can't seat as many people as the comparable Boeing 737. So why have airlines made the A320 so popular and why did AA agree to buy such a dog? Is it because Boeing is incapable of delivering enough 737s fast enough to meet AA's five year plan? Is it because the purchase price of the A320 makes up for all those deficiencies?

Yes I think it is the price. Same reason USAirways bought the 321's. Don't know whether or not Boeing is capable of providing ac quick enough.