US Pilot Labor Thread--11/16-23

[nostradamus]

If that were the case, Nos had no need of including who else worked for CO or what the UA neutral may have known about a possible UA/US merger. Just giving the 2 pilot neutrals would have gotten that message across if that's what was intended.

Including that info is pretty definitive of Nos' intentions.

Jim

It is a conflict of interest, similar to the one you have. You belong to a group (FFocus) that is telling passengers not to fly on Us Airways. You are retired from this same company. You are flying non revenue, using the companies and employees time, while you are at the same time going to meetings of a group that is telling people not to fly on the airline you are flying for free on.

 

[nostradamus]

I knew it was an ALPA conspiracy to screw the USAirways East pilots!

Thanks for being the watchdog you are. If only you had brought this up sooner, perhaps the Nicolau Award would have never come to fruition.
Keep up the good work.

Another conflict of interest. You are a former PSA pilot that was integrated into the Us Airways seniority list by date of hire. American Airlines bought Air California and put their pilots on the bottom of the seniority list. Us Airways bought your former airline psa and you got date of hire. You now fly very senior but live on the west coast. You do not care about right or wrong you just care about being based closer to your home. You also have a web site that has a link to america west. You are in it for yourself sir.

 

[Megasnoop]

It is a conflict of interest, similar to the one you have. You belong to a group (FFocus) that is telling passengers not to fly on Us Airways. You are retired from this same company. You are flying non revenue, using the companies and employees time, while you are at the same time going to meetings of a group that is telling people not to fly on the airline you are flying for free on.

Nostra, it makes sense to me. Chase off the paying pax and youve got empty non-rev seats! But in all seriousness, thanks for bringing up this conflict of interest to our attention. It explains a lot about the mindset of Bboy and the other LCC bashers (FFocus) that post on this thread rather than on operational threads. snooper

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nos has plenty of conflict of interest and conspiracy bogeymen in his closet. Unfortunately he has no proof that any of them exist...outside his imagination, that is.

Jim

 

[767jetz]

there were no "pilot neutrals" in the NWA/DAL arbitration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWA/DAL did not go to arbitration. There was negotiation and possibly mediation, but it never went to final and binding arbitration. Hence no "pilot neutrals." Both sides decided to do it much differently than US/AWA, and the results speak for themselves.

 

[dariencc]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWA/DAL did not go to arbitration.

Ok, I will. You are wrong.

There was negotiation and possibly mediation, but it never went to final and binding arbitration. Hence no "pilot neutrals."

The only accurate statement here is that there was negotiation.

Both sides decided to do it much differently than US/AWA, and the results speak for themselves.

"Both sides" would be impressed with your expert opinion.

And please feel free to share the results you are privy to, since the NW-DL pilots haven't yet received them from the panel.

 

[N924PS]

Another conflict of interest. You are a former PSA pilot that was integrated into the Us Airways seniority list by date of hire. American Airlines bought Air California and put their pilots on the bottom of the seniority list. Us Airways bought your former airline psa and you got date of hire. You now fly very senior but live on the west coast. You do not care about right or wrong you just care about being based closer to your home. You also have a web site that has a link to america west. You are in it for yourself sir.

Nostra,

I've pretty much given up on being based closer to where I live.

As I told you in a previous post, the PSA Web site http://www.psa-history.org/index.php is run by a former America West fellow who had an interest in preserving the unique history of PSA and it's employees.

 

[nostradamus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NWA/DAL did not go to arbitration. There was negotiation and possibly mediation, but it never went to final and binding arbitration. Hence no "pilot neutrals." Both sides decided to do it much differently than US/AWA, and the results speak for themselves.

arbitration hearings that began Thursday at a hotel near Los Angeles.

 

[electricjet98]

The alpa arbitration board for the Us Airways america west merger

George Nicolau Chairman

Captain James P Brucia, Pilot Neutral Continental Airlines pilot, John Prater President of alpa is a continental pilot.

Captain Stephen Gillen Pilot Neutral United Airlines pilot, who knew that a merger with Us Airways was being discussed.

Okay Nossy, enough of the conspiracy laden, wild-goose chase!

George Nicolau, Chairman of the panel was selected by both sides striking names of arbitrators until they came to the final name. Nicolau was someone that the east MEC and Merger Committee members had extensive experience with and quite happy to have as the selected mediator/arbitrator.

Captain James P Brucia, Pilot Neutral chosen by the east MEC and Merger Committee members. Prater had nothing to do with the east choosing him as their neutral.

Captain Stephen Gillen, Pilot Neutral chosen by the west MEC and Merger Committee. He was most certainly that multiple merger combinations were being discussed throughout the industry. He also knew that United & USAirways merger discussions/attempts had a history of going nowhere.


Due to the extensive experience that the east had with mergers in general and Nicolau in particular, they believed that they had "stacked the deck" in their favor. That gave them a sense of over-confidence that caused them to resist negotiation and mediation, so they could get right to arbitration. With their bloated ego and self-entitled attitude, they decided "to go for all or nothing"...the rest is history!

 

[767jetz]

Ok, I will. You are wrong.

My bad. I was thinking of the joint contract that they agreed upon, not the seniority integration. I guess that in fact is still ongoing. I have no details.

However, NWA/DAL did decide to agree to a joint contract BEFORE concluding seniority integration. Which means when they have a list, be it mutually agreed upon or arbitrated, it will go into effect immediately. No one will be able to tie up the closure of the deal for years to come. It also motivates both sides to find common ground in the middle, since at the conclusion of arbitration the deal is done.

It is in this regard they have chosen to do it much differently than US/AWA. Again, the results do and will speak for themselves.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

...Is it plausable or even possible that ALPA & the selected pilot "neutrals" colluded or conspired to come up with a solution (Nic Award) so distasteful to the East group that that same group would form a new union, USAPA which would likely be bogged down in court for years and if a merger or sale to any other ALPA represented carrier would likely mean that the US pilots would get stapled to the bottom of any new seniority list???

I've smelled a rat in this thing the whole time and I used to feel that the Big Fat Cheese Eater was Parker, Kirby et al. However as I read and read I'm beginning to question the motives of some of the parties involved in creating this cesspool.

As a customer, I'm to far removed to have any real knowledge so I go by what I read and what I'm reading is beginning to defy logic from so many angles

My thinking is that it had more to do with UAL (and others) wanting to "trash" the only real obstacle in a merger scenario, the seniority (as in Length-of-Service) of the East pilots. That's the whole crux of the merger debate when other airlines look at merging with LCC. I haven't read it in a while, but I believe that Capt Brucia actually objected to the methodology used.

By the way, in legal cases, you generally don't have to "prove" conflict of interest, only that there is a "possibility" of one. I think that it is fairly obvious that this is the case here. But here's the real kicker. Since this wasn't even an NMB arbitration, there are no procedures for appealing it other than district court. The East MEC's case against ALPA and the West was discontinued since neither side has any interest in the case after being replaced as CBA.

 

[electricjet98]

Tiger, Im not sure why the need to use contempt and attempted ridicule in this debate. Point is, there were no "pilot neutrals" in the NWA/DAL arbitration. And which two of the Horowitz, Eischen, Bloch trio are going to relegate themselves to the role of "non-voting." ALPO doesnt follow its own merger policy. Your continue barrage of contempt and ridicule is noted. snooper, aka Fred the first officer

Bloch is the only arbitrator; the other two are attornies, will they have a vote?

Freund once again makes perfect sense:

In his opening statement on behalf of Delta's pilots, attorney Jeffrey R. Freund told the panel that to integrate the two pilot lists, the first step should be to place the aircraft on both sides of the combined company in broad categories and then look at each pilot's status on those aircraft.

Pilots value their seniority. Those at the top of the list get first choice on vacations, the best routes and the bigger planes.For example, Freund said, there could be international wide-body captains and narrow-body first officers.

He said that whatever the categories are, the appropriate process would be to then count the pilots in each status and category who held those positions on a particular date, on the respective seniority lists.

So, if there were 200 Delta international wide-body captains and 100 Northwest international wide-body captains, the top 300 pilots from the two seniority lists would be distributed on the merged seniority list on the basis of two Delta pilots and then one Northwest pilot, and so on down the line.

Freund said the pilots in other aircraft categories should be distributed on the merged list the same way.

"That's the way its been done at Delta in every decade, the '70s, '80s, '90s and now the 2000s," Freund told the panel. "And every decade up until this decade, there has been seniority integration that has been done on status and category and it's been done fundamentally successfully."

 

[Pi brat]

Both sides decided to do it much differently than US/AWA, and the results speak for themselves.

Have they finished yet? I haven't seen the list. Why do you think the took a different path? Could it be the mess ALPA's merger policy created here? I had an ALPA NWA national guy tell me they learned their lesson from us. I said "If the pilots are afraid to use the policy, doesn't that tell you there might be a problem with it?" He just shrugged. Aw heck, it doesn't matter , it's just old US Air.

 

[fodase]

For those easties that think the company hasn't accepted the Nic. per the TA, here's a little reminder.May 19, 2007,


To: US Airways Pilots
I have received a number of questions and comments from pilots regarding what the Company can do in relation to the recent seniority integration arbitration decision. While I’ve been responding to them individually, I thought in this case it would make sense to update the entire pilot workforce.
First, let me begin with the facts -- the Company’s role in the seniority integration process is extremely limited. We, along with the East and West ALPA MECs, entered in to a Transition Agreement in September 2005 that addressed a number of issues, including the Company’s role in pilot seniority integration. The Agreement states that the integrated seniority list will be determined in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and then submitted to the Company by national ALPA for acceptance. The Company is then to evaluate the list to determine compliance with five criteria set forth in the Transition Agreement. Those criteria are:
No "system flush" whereby an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter's Position.
Furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots.
No requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown).
Allows pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain or 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the integrated seniority list.
Does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase costs associated with training or company paid moves.
If all of the criteria are satisfied, the Company must accept the list.
So, where are we now? First, while we all know that the arbitrator has made a determination, national ALPA has not yet submitted a list to the Company for acceptance. Whenever we do receive a list, we will review it for compliance using the standards listed above, but as you can see, the criteria is pretty straightforward and well defined.
Please do not take a lack of involvement to mean that the Company is not interested in this important issue. I have heard from many of you about how much this award could potentially affect you and your family, and I care about that very much. What I am saying is that the integration of seniority (other than compliance with the negotiated criteria) is a union process to manage and the Company cannot do anything unilaterally to affect this award.
I know that both pilot groups have very strong feelings on this subject and emotions are running high, but I’d ask that we please don’t let this process and the emotion around it drive us to a place that will make it difficult to work together in the future. As this unfolds, please be respectful of each other’s position and professional as always.
We’ll continue to monitor the process and I’ll let you know if anything develops regarding the Company’s involvement.

Doug


and just to make it official

 

[electricjet98]

First, let me begin with the facts -- the Company’s role in the seniority integration process is extremely limited. We, along with the East and West ALPA MECs, entered in to a Transition Agreement in September 2005 that addressed a number of issues, including the Company’s role in pilot seniority integration.

The Agreement states that the integrated seniority list will be determined in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and then submitted to the Company by national ALPA for acceptance.

Completed and accepted

The Company is then to evaluate the list to determine compliance with five criteria set forth in the Transition Agreement. Those criteria are:
No "system flush" whereby an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter's Position.
Furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots.
No requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown).
Allows pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain or 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the integrated seniority list.
Does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase costs associated with training or company paid moves.
If all of the criteria are satisfied, the Company must accept the list.

All criteria satisfied and, as stated earlier, accepted


I believe the fact that the company also paid $300k to each pilot group for their commitment to be involved and complete the arbitration to determine pilot seniority is also frequently and conveniently, overlooked.


Please riddle me this:

How has the company responded to USAPA's Dream List, in regards to acceptance statements or financial resources?