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US/Delta Slot and Facility Swap at LGA
- Thread starter ebwgs
- Start date
flybynite
Veteran
Oh yes...Delta rocked that deal.
I was astonished that we gave up so much for so little. Our concourses in LGA were great.
Over the last few years management just handed over our mainline ops to the commuters and it just went to hell. What a shame and a sham.
I went on line to the Port Authority and pulled up the D Terminal info and it doesn't have any thing except a Burger King and a coffee shop. You have to go back thru security to get any decent food. The flight crews are going to hate this!!!
And the Delta Shuttle Terminal....has nothing to speak of. And I think it just might piss people off to have to take a bus to get to the main terminal. What a ripoff.
Boo Boo Boo!!!
FutureUScapt
Veteran
- Dec 1, 2005
- 600
- 13
OK, the point being that the "injustice" done to LGA was done years ago though
True, it would have been nice to get some cash for the deal as well.
DL plans on building a connector between the two terminals; I'd have to think that they will be connected behind security since DL will still be operating from part of Terminal D as well.
Why would they need to go to the main terminal? Many NYC travelers actually like the MAT as they find it very quick and easy to get to. With the drawdown, there won't be people connecting from the Shuttle in LGA.
From the NY Times:
Published: Saturday, November 16, 1991
In a bid to increase its already sizable presence at La Guardia Airport, USAir said yesterday that it had agreed to buy 108 arrival and departure slots at La Guardia from Continental Airlines for $61 million.... follow link to read full article
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/16/business...61-million.html
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think this was a good deal for both airlines. Companies of all types routinely divest assets that no longer make sense and buy others. This allows DL to build its NYC presence even further and US to build its WAS presence even further, good for both carriers.
My only concern is US has to do something with 35A/B in DCA. Those gates are insane with the current flight schedule.
My only concern is US has to do something with 35A/B in DCA. Those gates are insane with the current flight schedule.
Waketurbulence
Advanced
They are eliminating unprofitable flying. I think it's a smart move. Why would you keep running a money losing operation, because it's a nice terminal and you don't have to go outside for coffee?
LCC gains 41 additional slots in DCA with ongoing legislation to relax the perimeter rule, something that was not and will not happen in LGA. Running small rj's to BUF or HPN half full is a money loser. Running a full Airbus or 75 to the Mid West and West coast will make money in the long run. With these additional slots and some lifting of perimeter, look for SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX DEN ect. non-stops with higher yield passengers filling them up.
I am not a fan, but the "boys in Tempe" contrary to what some believe, are not idiots.
They ARE going to do something about 35A/B. They are going to use the new slots and applied for gates to increase MAINLINE service and decrease EXPRESS flying from DCA. Please re-read the press releases to see this information more clearly. Less EXPRESS means less need for 35A/B.
From the looks of the press release, US is going to build up DCA as a hub versus the current focus city status. In this scenario, they will be moving larger domestic aircraft into/out of DCA to provide a reliever for PHL for north/south and east/west domestic flying, plus they will pick up some originating traffic in the DCA area that is currently underserved. With the US Shuttle operated by mainline out of LGA, they will not need as much Express flying to PHL and CLT to make connections.
It's really quite brilliant because DCA is not exposed to as much low fare traffic as LGA is, and any originating traffic they add with more mainline flights in DCA will be gravy to the hub operation.
US will save $75 million per year, and most of it will be from delayed and cancelled flights at LGA due to constrained airspace and slot restricted operations. They will NOT have these same restrictions at DCA due to the physical location of the airport respective to the NYC air space.
Actually the D Terminal has a Burger King, a Chilli's. a Sabaro's a Nathan's, and a Fox Sports Lounge. In addition, once the connector opens connecting the two terminals which will likely occur prior to US actually operating flights at D you will have access to all the vendors in the current US Terminal without leaving security, probably about an 8-10 min walk from the new US gates to the current US Food court. Also in D but outside security their is a Subway. I think the crews will be happy food options wise.
Regards
LGA777
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
The decision to execute the slot transaction is not black or white and with anything there are positive and negative points.
US Airways has tried different actions to make LGA work because of the station’s high overhead. The company has sought other airlines to lease space and found not takers, the company tried to seek vendors to rent space only to see small businesses come in an close up shop because they would not make a profit, and another option was to use smaller aircraft to match capacity with demand with a lot of frequency (Express operation on gates 1 through 10). The plan to use smaller aircraft failed when fuel prices skyrocketed and RJ flying became unprofitable.
Other attempts to make LGA profitable were not permitted by the PANYNJ such as having the perimeter rule exemption lifted so US Airways could fly from LGA to PHX and LAS; as well as using mainline aircraft to fly to places like BUF and ROC less times per day than the RJ’s if the PANYNJ if the PA would not give the slots to a competitor, which would defeat US Airways’ plan of trying to lower its unit costs, reduce congestion, and not create more competition.
In the end management was presented with an option to get out of a facility lease that is very expensive, reduce unprofitable Express flying, and transfer ASM’s to one of US Airways’ most profitable large airports in the system, obtain Tokyo and San Paulo route authority, and make LGA profitable.
Although I understand the rational behind the decision, one point I do not understand is US Airways’ split operation at both LGA and DCA. Delta is going to have superior facilities in all 3 Shuttle cities. US Airways is comparable in BOS and US Airways has a better Shuttle product. However, the split operation in LGA and DCA bothers me because I would have liked to see US Airways hold out an extract a better deal. For example, I would have liked US Airways use Terminal C gates 1-7 in LGA instead of Terminal D gates 8 through 10 and the MAT.
I understand US Airways looked at every conceivable option to have a single facility on LGA, but it did not work primarily because the MAT’s terminal is too small. Even though the MAT has 6 gates and US Airways’ post Delta deal requires 7 gates, the MAT terminal space is too small to accommodate Mainline and Shuttle passengers.
And, I’m fearful US Airways will use DCA’s Banjo Terminal on the south side of the field and bus passengers from Gate 35 to the former NWA gates like the company does with the Commuter World. Now US Airways will have two bus operations, one to the Commuter World and one to the Banjo Terminal, its main concourse, and the use of gates 23, 24, 25.
I’m hopeful US Airways can work out a deal with Republic to obtain gate 26, which is currently used by Frontier or some other option can be worked out with the MWAA and United or American on some kind of move, but DCA is going to have its challenges.
Separately, for those who have discussed placing the E-170 or E-175 on the Shuttle this is not permitted per the East pilot contract. The Shuttle must be flown by Mainline aircraft. The company has the option to place the E-190 on the Shuttle, but that could be problematic. The Shuttle requires 12 aircraft to operate and US Airways owns 25 E-190s. In the past US Airways has found the Shuttle runs poorly during operational disruptions with different aircraft or aircraft that cannot be easily put into the mainline with MEL’s. Crew swaps, dual segment cancellations, or placing an aircraft into the Mainline operation that can better operate with a MEL than on the Shuttle are some of the examples of why the A319 is now the best suited aircraft for the Shuttle mission.
Finally, I understand the logic behind the Slot Transaction deal, but I’m disappointed US Airways could not have obtained a better deal with Delta with more DCA slots provided to the Tempe-based carrier and a one-location operation in LGA. If there is a way to consolidate LGA Mainline and Shuttle operations I strongly believe US Airways should make the commitment to do so. And, I know US Airways is working with MWAA to figure out a better gate solution, but this needs to be done too.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
US Airways has tried different actions to make LGA work because of the station’s high overhead. The company has sought other airlines to lease space and found not takers, the company tried to seek vendors to rent space only to see small businesses come in an close up shop because they would not make a profit, and another option was to use smaller aircraft to match capacity with demand with a lot of frequency (Express operation on gates 1 through 10). The plan to use smaller aircraft failed when fuel prices skyrocketed and RJ flying became unprofitable.
Other attempts to make LGA profitable were not permitted by the PANYNJ such as having the perimeter rule exemption lifted so US Airways could fly from LGA to PHX and LAS; as well as using mainline aircraft to fly to places like BUF and ROC less times per day than the RJ’s if the PANYNJ if the PA would not give the slots to a competitor, which would defeat US Airways’ plan of trying to lower its unit costs, reduce congestion, and not create more competition.
In the end management was presented with an option to get out of a facility lease that is very expensive, reduce unprofitable Express flying, and transfer ASM’s to one of US Airways’ most profitable large airports in the system, obtain Tokyo and San Paulo route authority, and make LGA profitable.
Although I understand the rational behind the decision, one point I do not understand is US Airways’ split operation at both LGA and DCA. Delta is going to have superior facilities in all 3 Shuttle cities. US Airways is comparable in BOS and US Airways has a better Shuttle product. However, the split operation in LGA and DCA bothers me because I would have liked to see US Airways hold out an extract a better deal. For example, I would have liked US Airways use Terminal C gates 1-7 in LGA instead of Terminal D gates 8 through 10 and the MAT.
I understand US Airways looked at every conceivable option to have a single facility on LGA, but it did not work primarily because the MAT’s terminal is too small. Even though the MAT has 6 gates and US Airways’ post Delta deal requires 7 gates, the MAT terminal space is too small to accommodate Mainline and Shuttle passengers.
And, I’m fearful US Airways will use DCA’s Banjo Terminal on the south side of the field and bus passengers from Gate 35 to the former NWA gates like the company does with the Commuter World. Now US Airways will have two bus operations, one to the Commuter World and one to the Banjo Terminal, its main concourse, and the use of gates 23, 24, 25.
I’m hopeful US Airways can work out a deal with Republic to obtain gate 26, which is currently used by Frontier or some other option can be worked out with the MWAA and United or American on some kind of move, but DCA is going to have its challenges.
Separately, for those who have discussed placing the E-170 or E-175 on the Shuttle this is not permitted per the East pilot contract. The Shuttle must be flown by Mainline aircraft. The company has the option to place the E-190 on the Shuttle, but that could be problematic. The Shuttle requires 12 aircraft to operate and US Airways owns 25 E-190s. In the past US Airways has found the Shuttle runs poorly during operational disruptions with different aircraft or aircraft that cannot be easily put into the mainline with MEL’s. Crew swaps, dual segment cancellations, or placing an aircraft into the Mainline operation that can better operate with a MEL than on the Shuttle are some of the examples of why the A319 is now the best suited aircraft for the Shuttle mission.
Finally, I understand the logic behind the Slot Transaction deal, but I’m disappointed US Airways could not have obtained a better deal with Delta with more DCA slots provided to the Tempe-based carrier and a one-location operation in LGA. If there is a way to consolidate LGA Mainline and Shuttle operations I strongly believe US Airways should make the commitment to do so. And, I know US Airways is working with MWAA to figure out a better gate solution, but this needs to be done too.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
NoMoreKoolAid
Senior
- Nov 12, 2007
- 315
- 20
PineyBob I agree with that statement. Spot on.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Shaka,
Shaka asked: "Do u think that US AIR will take more gates in the center pier at DCA and MWAA will move United or American to the south pier? Seems to me that MWAA would want to keep their main tenant as happy as possible."
USA320Pilot comments: That is my hope and the only DCA option(s) that make sense. Moving Repbulic (now that they apparently are going to acquire Frontier) from gate 26 would be the first option and then obtaining two gates from United (gate 27 & 29) or obtaining two gates from American (gate 28 & 30) the additional best options. Will American and/or United do this?
The problem is the Banjo Concourse is an inferior facility. Gates 1-4 have no jetways and gates 5-9 are used by AirTran, Midwest (Republic), Spirit, and Delta (Northwest). It's clear why Delta does not want the former Northwest DCA Banjo terminal gates because their DCA operations would be split.
Delta gave up the DCA Banjo terminal gates, 42 DCA slots, and two international route authorities to obtain 124 LGA slots, the premier LGA terminal, and a way to consolidate their LGA and DCA operations.
I'm not to upset about US Airways giving up the LGA terminal because the company's scope of operation could not sustain the terminal lease expense and LGA lost money, lots of money.
What bothers me is that US Airways had leverage and may have been able to obtain a better deal. I know Delta was the driver here and US Airways needs to further cut costs and boost revenue to return to profitability. The Slot Transaction will do that by about $75 million per year, which is good.
However, I believe for the deal to be truly a success US Airways must find a way to consolidate operations at both LGA and DCA like Delta did.
One more point, the LGA MAT does have its benefits over Terminal C for Shuttle operations. According to Barclays airline analyst Gary Chase the MAT has corporate account preference over US Airways' Terminal C operation. The terminal is closer to Manhattan, security lines are shorter, and the terminal is less congested than Terminal C. And, US Airways says it will make improvements to the MAT, which will be a boost for the customer.
However, to provide a better customer experience I believe US Airways must make the improvements necessary to consolidate operations at both LGA and DCA to compete in today's marketplace.
How would I do this? I would find a way to operate 7 gates out of the MAT, even if one is remote for RJ flights, and work with the MWAA to get 3 additional DCA gates in between gates 23-34. Now the question is how can Corporate Real Estate accomplish these tasks?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Shaka asked: "Do u think that US AIR will take more gates in the center pier at DCA and MWAA will move United or American to the south pier? Seems to me that MWAA would want to keep their main tenant as happy as possible."
USA320Pilot comments: That is my hope and the only DCA option(s) that make sense. Moving Repbulic (now that they apparently are going to acquire Frontier) from gate 26 would be the first option and then obtaining two gates from United (gate 27 & 29) or obtaining two gates from American (gate 28 & 30) the additional best options. Will American and/or United do this?
The problem is the Banjo Concourse is an inferior facility. Gates 1-4 have no jetways and gates 5-9 are used by AirTran, Midwest (Republic), Spirit, and Delta (Northwest). It's clear why Delta does not want the former Northwest DCA Banjo terminal gates because their DCA operations would be split.
Delta gave up the DCA Banjo terminal gates, 42 DCA slots, and two international route authorities to obtain 124 LGA slots, the premier LGA terminal, and a way to consolidate their LGA and DCA operations.
I'm not to upset about US Airways giving up the LGA terminal because the company's scope of operation could not sustain the terminal lease expense and LGA lost money, lots of money.
What bothers me is that US Airways had leverage and may have been able to obtain a better deal. I know Delta was the driver here and US Airways needs to further cut costs and boost revenue to return to profitability. The Slot Transaction will do that by about $75 million per year, which is good.
However, I believe for the deal to be truly a success US Airways must find a way to consolidate operations at both LGA and DCA like Delta did.
One more point, the LGA MAT does have its benefits over Terminal C for Shuttle operations. According to Barclays airline analyst Gary Chase the MAT has corporate account preference over US Airways' Terminal C operation. The terminal is closer to Manhattan, security lines are shorter, and the terminal is less congested than Terminal C. And, US Airways says it will make improvements to the MAT, which will be a boost for the customer.
However, to provide a better customer experience I believe US Airways must make the improvements necessary to consolidate operations at both LGA and DCA to compete in today's marketplace.
How would I do this? I would find a way to operate 7 gates out of the MAT, even if one is remote for RJ flights, and work with the MWAA to get 3 additional DCA gates in between gates 23-34. Now the question is how can Corporate Real Estate accomplish these tasks?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Glucose Intolerant
Senior
- Feb 22, 2008
- 443
- 264
