Us Airways Negotiations: 12 Angry Men

[MarkMyWords]

Personally, my feeling is that the majority of ALPA can't be wrong. If ALPA financial adivsors, lawyers, etc are saying that the RC4 are wrong in their stance, then they need to conceed. If the true majority of ALPA members feel that what the negotiating committee brings back as TA is unacceptable or inappropriate, then they can vote it down. This would be the true reflection of the fact that the RC4 were representing the voice of their members.

I agree with Row.....for all the noise in this thread, I have yet to see someone stand up for the credibility of Capt Freshwater or challenge the allegations. That in itself speaks volumes to Capt Freshwaters REAL agenda. The question has to be asked, are the RC4 acting in the best interest of the ENTIRE Pilot group, or are they acting in their own best interest.

 

[USA320Pilot]

RowunderDCA asked: “Well, there are a lot of disputes on this board. But is anyone going to answer the charge that 'Freshwater is suing over the cancellation of the DB pension? That is an interesting fact. Is he suing U or U and ALPA?â€￾

USA320Pilot comment: Freshwater, PHL F/O Rep Dan Von Bargen, and NC member Ted Schott are suing ALPA over the DB plan pension loss. The suit has been filed in court and specifically names every MEC member who held a position when the plan was terminated.

Bertrand Russell said, "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt," which accurately describes the MEC.

Walmartgreeter asked: “Ok, one more time 320. Are you calling them "stupid" or not?â€￾

USA320Pilot comments: I provided a quote.

USA320Pilot’s additional comment: Earlier this month Freshwater and the other members of the RC4, sent a letter to the NC stating that they wanted an Early Retirement Incentive Program (ERIP) or early out, DC Plan Notational Cash contributions paid to the pilot before age 60, a lucrative sick bank cash out program, and vacation fly back. These points are in addition to keeping the DC Plan in place, which can pay Freshwater, Philadelphia Captain Rep John Crocker, and Pittsburgh First Officer Rep John Brookman about $60,000 per year above their income.

This letter was sent outside of the MEC and was not included in a resolution. In response, NC chairman Doug Mowrey said in an ASPEN voice mail message this correspondence was not acceptable because the RC4 was operating outside their authority. To have this demand included in a resolution Special MEC meeting (which costs about $15,000 per day in person) would need to be called to direct the NC to provide this guidance.

Even though Mowrey said this publicly, the RC4 and Mowrey continue to hold private caucuses even when the MEC is in the same room. Then the RC4 and the other members of the MEC vote and the "roll call" is used.

This is all on top of the lawsuit where some of the RC4 want the rank-and-file to provide them with a very large cash payment, either through settlement or a court order. Regardless of whether or not Freshwater, Von Bargen, and the other plaintiff’s win their suit, ALPA members will have to pay for their own attorney fees.

Every key ALPA official is lined up against the RC4 and these men with very little ALPA experience or training are holding the pilot group hostage.

Respectfully,

USA320pilot

 

[luvn737s]

Every airline has their fear mongerers. Throwing a lousy deal to the mob is just what management and their fear mongering accomplices want. All they have to do is undermine the courage of 50%+1 (and that ain't too hard when you've got the media at your disposal) and the lousy deal passes. With the contrived crisis behind them, management carries on to the next blunder, basking in their shrewdness, but none the wiser.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

.

Walmartgreeter asked: “Ok, one more time 320. Are you calling them "stupid" or not?â€￾

USA320Pilot comments: I provided a quote.


Respectfully,

USA320pilot

[post="173663"][/post]​

HEY, I quoted FIRST! That is not what I asked. Lay out, one at a time, every item presented by U management and tell the world how that particular item was negociated. You will not be able to. THERE WAS NO NEGOTIATION. NONE.NADA. U twiddled their thumbs until the last minute, for MONTHS, then slid the take it or leave it offer across the table. You are, AGAIN, making this a matter of personal attacks against those you do not agree with, while continuing to provide an excellent forum for managements requests. Just like with your good buddy Seigle, you are aligning yourself with thieves and leaving your fellow pilots behind. We are toast, but long rememebered will be USA320Pilot, the only pilot who would argue to give away his own retirements (note the plural) one after the other! Greeter.

 

[Phoenix]

Bertrand Russell once said, ....

[post="173577"][/post]​

This explains it all. You read Russell.

Russell was a troubled soul who thought he was smart enough to prove, or reason, that his worst fears were all untrue.

He might be considered among the most “contemplative†of men, but sadly he could not recognize that he had painted himself into a corner and had finally arrived at the moment of truth when he discovered his “Russell’s Paradoxâ€. (Surely you are familiar with Russell’s Paradox. The “set of all sets that is not a set of itselfâ€.)

I suspect he knew the one “set†that answered his “Paradox†but he refused to accept the solution, seeing himself “too intelligent†to agree with his own conscience.

So Russell failed to accept the answer to his paradox and he failed to prove his worst fears were untrue.

No beacon of light.

Respectrully,

Phoenix

 

[MarkMyWords]

Every airline has their fear mongerers. Throwing a lousy deal to the mob is just what management and their fear mongering accomplices want. All they have to do is undermine the courage of 50%+1 (and that ain't too hard when you've got the media at your disposal) and the lousy deal passes. With the contrived crisis behind them, management carries on to the next blunder, basking in their shrewdness, but none the wiser.

[post="173672"][/post]​

If the TA passed by 50% + 1, then it is the will of the majority....that is why it is called a vote. You would prefer that the minority rule?

Allow the NC to negotiate the best deal that they can, then you can vote however you wish. The majority will rule.

 

[mlt]

Let's take USA320's following statements apart:

they wanted an Early Retirement Incentive Program (ERIP) or early out:

If there is an early out it reduces the senior, top of scale employee and opens a slot for a furloughee to return. The company also saves in vacation accrual/payout.

DC Plan Notational Cash contributions paid to the pilot before age 60:

Of course they want it paid prior to age 60, but only paid if the pilot retires. Doesn't everyone want their pension when they retire? Or do you want to give the company an interest free loan.

a lucrative sick bank cash out program:

An incentive for employees to reduce their sick calls. If one knows his/her sick bank will be prorated to pay for the costs of retiree medical costs it is a win/win. Crew Scheduling isn't faced with crew shortages and the employee is saving to cover the cost of retirement medical insurance.

vacation fly back:

Another win/win. Crew Scheduling isn't faced with crew shortages and the employee has an opportunity to work during his/her vacation and make extra money (paid at normal wage rates). Aren't you the one that has moaned there isn't a way for pilot to make extra money?

These points are in addition to keeping the DC Plan in place, which can pay Freshwater, Philadelphia Captain Rep John Crocker, and Pittsburgh First Officer Rep John Brookman about $60,000 per year above their income:

Above their income? Don't you mean above the pension benefit they will receive from the PBGC? Isn't the point of a defined contribution plan to support oneself during retirement.

One final comment. Fred Freshwater is a man of integrity. He is blessed with reasoning skills that have been sorely needed within ALPA. When the facts are twisted to deliberately malign a good man's name, it truly shows the character of such poster.

 

[MarkMyWords]

And where do we get the money to fund and ERIP, Sick day buy back, etc? We are 18 days away from our second bankruptcy. Where is the money going to come from? Taking more form the pockets of the labor that is left behind?

 

[FlyingHippie]

i find it really amusing that someone who has cleaned out their sick bank is so in favor of the company's proposal. it's the ultimate i got mine the heck with the rest.

 

[USA320Pilot]

MarkMyWords:

You're right. In fact, the RC4 would likely authorize more furloughs as long as they keep the DC plan and obtain retirement bonus payments.

The RC4s pilot cash payment proposal, really designed to provide a lump sum retirement benefit, would be paid directly from the corporate treasury and would contribute to ATSB loan guarantee covenants violations, which has been explained to the RC4. Do they care? No siree.

Here's another point. The company would like America West pay rates, where the Phoneix-based carrier's B757 pilots are paid narrowbody pay, which is the same rate as the A320/B737.

What about the current proposal’s for US Airways pilots? B757 pilots will continue to be paid widebody rates and to make fund this difference with America West pilot costs, the parties are negotiating the loss of night and non-transatlantic premium pay for other other aircraft. Who gets hurt the worst? A320 and B737 pilots.

The company needs cost cuts and the RC4 are driving up costs with their retirement bonus payment plan.

Guess who currently holds or can hold B757 or above positions and will benefit the most? You guessed it -- members of the RC4.

Therefore, pilots on every piece of equipment lose more pay and the B757 pilots maintain widebody pay.

In regard to sick banks, mine is over 800 hours and I just received a letter from the company for no sick calls during the past 6 months. FlyingHyppie, what's your sick bank total?

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[mlt]

Flying Hippie,
AAAH, the plot thickens! A certain poster won't have a sick bank to be paid at a significantly lower rate to offset retiree medical insurance.

MMW,
I don't know what, if any, the enhancements are to the requested early retirement. Do you know? If so, please post. It would make for an interestng discussion.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Mlt:

Freshwater is suing ALPA and the MEC, he used vulgar language in open session at yesterday’s meeting, he is seeking cost increase items to benefit the senior, he walked out of the meeting when others discuss issues, and he refuses to listen to constituents unless they support his self serving agenda.

He also insults pilots in official communications and lacks general decorum.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[Fatherknowsbest]

no one wanted to answer my querry

 

[mlt]

Soon to be a Reserve First Officer,
I don't understand. If they are successful in acquiring an early out, and what you have been writing is accurate, that this group of intelligent men are ready to retire, maintaining the rates on the 757 does not help them one bit.....They will be retired.....

Would it be that you are unable to currently hold a 757 slot, and in the not too distant future unable to hold a 757 first officer slot? I was always under the impression the larger the aircraft the higher the wage. Are you suggesting that all pilots regardless of type of aircraft receive the same wage?

Are you suggesting the group of pilots who are within a few years of retirement and had their anticipated retirement wiped out without the ability/years to recoup their losses should give up the top hat plan (that was negotiated when the defined benefit was terminated) so that you benefit?

Green is not a good color on you.

 

[Dog Wonder]

He also insults pilots in official communications and lacks general decorum.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

Thank you for your enlighting comment on decorum. It is very useful to hear from an expert on the subject.