Us Airways Negotiations: 12 Angry Men

[USA320Pilot]

A320Driver:

A320Driver said: "Yeah, the chest beaters are havin' a field day, aren't they? I'm not in favor of any cram down, but I feel that the negotiating committee has not had it's best day mainly due to the fact that their hands are tied in so many different ways, that they can't do what negotiating committees are supposed to do...NEGOTIATE."

USA320Pilot: That's exactly what the NC told the RC4 hardliners, but the RC4 "rookies" do not want to hear it. The RC4 has backed them self into a corner and every key ALPA advisor, officer, and representative have told them things will be much worse unless they change their position on the DC Plan.

We currently have about 25 ALPA leaders and advisors telling the RC4 they are leading the way for the death of US Airways and the RC4 do not want to hear it.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[funguy2]

We currently have about 25 ALPA leaders and advisors telling the RC4 they are leading the way for the death of US Airways and the RC4 do not want to hear it.

[post="173392"][/post]​

Maybe the "RC4" aren't stupid. If the pilots they represent stand behind their position, the rest doesn't matter.

The RC4 are not leading the way for the death of US Airways, at least a decade of poor management is leading the way to the death of US Airways.

The fact that 25 ALPA leaders and advisors are scared, is the bigger issue. Fear is ruling, not creativity, not teamwork, not an attitude of "we're in this together, let's work something out". No, only fear, blame, and finger-pointing. Not good, not good at all.

Management will have their scapegoat: the unions

Now, the unions have their scapegoat too: the hardliners

For this company to succeed, all of this crap needs to stop, intead it gets worse.

 

[savyinvestor]

"ALLEGED"! Lets deal with the facts and only the facts! Its simple. They don't agree with you and thats a fact!!! No ALLEGE there. Savy

 

[USA320Pilot]

Funguy2:

The RC4 do not have the support of the majority of the pilots.

Unless the RC4 lifts all negotiating restrictions, according to the advisor's management is going to seek even deeper cuts and the airline will likely liquidate in the process.

Bankruptcy is coming on September 12 and any union wihtout a new agreement is going to get "creamed" one way or another. Furthermore, when the company enters bankrputcy all of the returns from consensual deals will be lost.

4 men of which 3 have no ALPA experience and no ALPA training are disregarding the thoughts of hundreds of years of ALPA experience and are acting against the advice of every advisor.

It is plain stupid for these rookies with no expeirence to disregard the advice of virtually everybody at ALPA National and virtually the entire MEC, its committees, and now all of the negotiators.

Tic...Toc...Tic...Toc...bankruptcy and failure is just around the corner because of labor denial.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[Walmartgreeter]

A320Driver:


USA320Pilot: That's exactly what the NC told the RC4 hardliners, but the RC4 "rookies" do not want to hear it. Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="173392"][/post]​

I have seen you do this before. The minute you are on the floor crying like a baby you start calling people names..then sign your posts "respectfully."

You are the true rookie now, because for the first time in your career at U you are going to have to act like a Pilot and stand with your brothers as they try and NEGOCIATE a settlement instead of cowering in the face of one sided management. The end game is here, we both know it. Let us act like men and not mice and get this thing accomplished. If management thinks the offers are not enough, fine...the U pilots should and will pony up even bigger givebacks. But the cram down land grab now presented by U management is an insult to the profession. How about working WITH the rookies, as you so insultingly say, instead of acting as the mouthpiece for crooked, thieving, non-contract honoring management. Good luck to all at U. Greeter.

 

[USA320Pilot]

DELETED

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Funguy2:


4 men of which 3 have no ALPA experience and no ALPA training are disregarding the thoughts of hundreds of years of ALPA experience and are acting against the advice of every advisor.

It is plain stupid for these rookies with no expeirence to disregard the advice of virtually everybody at ALPA National and virtually the entire MEC, its committees, and now all of the negotiators.

Tic...Toc...Tic...Toc...bankruptcy and failure is just around the corner because of labor denial.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="173401"][/post]​

Would that be the same "experienced" ALPA pilots that allowed the U pilots to be BLINDSIDED by and underfunded pension? How about B scale, C scale, etc? I notice you are now using the word "stupid"........I will keep track of your name calling..........Greeter.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Walmartgreeter:

I said the action was stupid and did not insult the RC4 where people like Freshwater and Von Bargen are rookies. Please read my comment again.

Without consensual union agreements the company told the MEC it will park all of the A330s and the advisors have said the airline will be much smaller, resulting in thousands of employees losing their jobs.

Management said ALPA could have the America West contract, but so far the RC4 has been unwilling to give on the DC Plan, probably because they're all near retirement and unprepared for that situation.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[funguy2]

First... US Airways and ALPA could stand for some fresh ideas and new thinking.

Second, if the RC4 are representing the goals of 51% of their constituents, then they are doing their job, representing the majority of the people who elected them.

President Bush was not elected by popular vote, yet he was elected by the electoral college, because if a state casts 51% of its vote for him, he got 100% of the electoral college votes.

As I understand it, the situation with the RC4 is similar. You may not like it, but it is what it is.

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

I am tempted to call Miss Cleo and see how all this comes out.

Some things are worth pursuing even if you know you are going to get creamed.

I tend to think all employees are better off placing their trust in the BK judge than in the management of this outfit. And yes, it is true, any group might be better off hitting the BK judge with a higher, rather than a lower, start point.

Negotiating in good faith means much more than the company presenting a pretty shabby offer and demanding a group "take it or we'll abrogate your contract in BK."

Maybe the infamour four see the handwriting on the wall or maybe they have just had enough. What I find unseemly, though, is someone who claims that the majority of the pilots disagree with them.

That may very well be true, but those guys were duly elected to represent a specific bloc of flight operation personnel and until such time as they are recalled or turned out of office, their job is to best represent their constituents and I would imagine that they see what they are doing as just that - providing the best possible representation.

And as far as death threats are concerned.....well, that's not much of an incentive to go along. If one side feels strongly enough about an issue to issue death threats, then you generally would do well not to embrace their position. People who make death threats are generally the type that would lie, cheat, hose investors and stockholders, violate union contracts and other binding agreements, and hurt puppies.

Oh wait a minute, I might have just described a group of people some would allege to be USAirways' management team.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Did I read somewhere on here that if this piece of DELETED BY MODERATOR deal went out for a vote that the pilots would lose the right to "self help" even if they voted it down? Is this right?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Walmartgreeter:

I said the action was stupid and did not insult the RC4 where people like Freshwater and Von Bargen are rookies. Please read my comment again.


Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="173409"][/post]​

Hey. I will back off. Just show a little respect for your fellow pilots...they ARE doing a bang up job, even the ones that don't agree with PIT and PHL....its all part of the process. Can you not see what has just happend here. Management has not been honoring U pilots current contract, and have not presented ONE thing in talks that represented "good faith." As I said....if the give back is truly not enough, then NEGOCIATE more. But things like reserve "2 hour report" and the many others are simply a land grab. Management's unwillingness to address "other" costs is a concern also. You seem to have a lot of sway. How about using some of it on your management friends. They need negociate, not dictate and ask for a bypass of the negociating committee. Greeter.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

"Land grab" is a good term for it. There's a system of checks-and-balances and many things the company wants in theory do not cost very much in dollars. I call it dollars and no sense negotiating. I truly think the goal here is to make people as miserable as possible so they'll quit. I really believe that. Hello! You are asking a workgroup that averages 54 years of age to work on average two more days a month, for less money, less vacation, oh, and less sick time. If you ask me that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[A320 Driver]

I'm afraid I can't go along with those of you that say the PIT and PHL reps (I will not call them one of the coined names) represent a majority of the pilots. If we use history as an indicator, LOA91 would prove out rather convinsingly that on many issues their constituancy does not agree with them. I believe they do represent a very vocal minority which come off with a large voice, but quiet to a whimper when it's time to vote. True they have the numbers, but I do not believe they have the support. Big difference. If they continue to tie the negotiating committee's hands and block progress toward a settlement, I also believe their support will wither.

A320 Driver

 

[700UW]

The smell of fear is overcoming this thread. It is amazing to see how scared a certain pilot poster is, it is actually pathetic.

The sky is falling the sky is falling sounds like chicken little instead of men.

Reminds me of what someone told me, US Airways is burning down your house, one room at a time, are you gonna let them destroy your house or are you gonna fight back?

I can see certain posters are gonna let them burn down their house because of fear.