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US Air to Address Creditors on Takeover plan

I guess you forget that AMR's $7B includes salary and benefits for Eagle, whereas DL only owns Comair (down to around 1000 employees?) at this point.

DL's balance sheet had close to $4B in "Contract Carrier Arrangements" and $1.5B for maintenance parts & outside repairs.

It's a bit specious to only point at the wages & benefits number when they're not the sum of the same parts... You would need to allocate a fair portion of the $5.5B mentioned above in order to get a cleaner comparison of AA's labor costs and DL's labor costs.

Even then it may be a bit of a crapshoot due to the regionals, since some agreements include pass-thrus for landing fees, fuel, real estate, while others don't.
I am aware of those differences in the way DL and AA do business... but all of those numbers all drop down to the final CASM number and there are also a host of sources that use DOT and SEC data to calculate CASM on a mainline, comparable system basis - ie ex-profit sharing, special items etc basis.
AA has had a mainline, equal comparison CASM 15-20% higher than DL for a number of years - from 5-10% higher than UA.
Even if you factor in all of the adjustments that you note, AA's employee cuts bring AA's CASM down to levels comparable with DL - but it doesn't surpass DL.
DL's mainline CASM recently has been lower than WN's, reflecting DL's continued cost controls while WN has stopped growing which has been their primary tool to keep CASM in check.
WN's addition of 738s WILL drop their CASM, as will DL's early retirement programs and its replacement of older jets with newer fuel-efficient aircraft - and DL is adding those new jets at prices below what AA will spend to upgrade its own fleet.
Neither the cost reductions that DL and WN are doing now are factored into the target that AA must reach in order to be competitive. In fact, it is highly possible that AA's decision to revisit their term sheets while also "agreeing" to freeze the pensions is an opportunity to extract even larger salary and benefit cuts under the guise of having to retain the pension obligations = which AA likely will still have at least in part.
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AA will have no trouble trading places with UA.. and AA's CASM will get to levels on par with where DL and WN are now.... but it is very possible - if not likely that DL and WN's cost cutting efforts will push their CASM down by another 5-10% which makes it much harder for AA to continue cutting and still keep its workforce at some level of engagement necessary to run the airline.
It's also worth noting that US' costs are higher than DL and WN's (even on a comparable look basis) and US has no public plans to significantly reduce its costs. Thus, US' costs will likely end up higher than AA, DL, and WN's on a standalone basis - and under UA's.
Believing that a merger between a carrier that has costs somewhat in the ballpark (a reorganized AA) with a carrier that has the 2nd highest costs is a recipe for failure.
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But I have no doubt that AA will get its costs where it needs to be.
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I am far less convinced that AA either by itself or with AA will be able to turn its revenue performance around - and there has been no cases of successful restructurings at airlines (if not other companies as well) that have occurred without significant increases in revenues.
So far, AA has yet to give any indication of how they will increase revenues, particularly in light of the reduced capacity that higher fuel prices dictate.
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And even in an asset acquisition, as Keller notes, the acquiring party has to take on significant portions of the debt as part of the acquisition - or pay a large premium in order to pay off some of the overall debt.
Creditors know that one way or the other, the company's obligations must be covered.
DL took on a significant amount of debt as well as a number of aircraft as part of the Pan Am asset acquisition. Again, UA took on less aircraft, less debt, and fewer employees despite acquiring the most lucrative assets.
 
I am aware of those differences in the way DL and AA do business... but all of those numbers all drop down to the final CASM number and there are also a host of sources that use DOT and SEC data to calculate CASM on a mainline, comparable system basis - ie ex-profit sharing, special items etc basis.
Just out of curiosity, what is your best apples to apples CASM numbers for DL, AA, and WN? Let's say for full year 2011. And their source?

You do realize that US claims a lower mainline CASM Ex number than DL???

Jim
 
Look! up in the Sky!!

Its, It's It's!!! usa1? etops1? USA320Pilot?

NO...it is an omen meant for AAviator. Hee Hee
 
Just out of curiosity, what is your best apples to apples CASM numbers for DL, AA, and WN? Let's say for full year 2011. And their source?

You do realize that US claims a lower mainline CASM Ex number than DL???

Jim
Just out of curiosity, what is your best apples to apples CASM numbers for DL, AA, and WN? Let's say for full year 2011. And their source?

You do realize that US claims a lower mainline CASM Ex number than DL???

Jim
Jim,
as you well know, CASM and RASM are calculated reasonably differently and show up in different documents but nearly all airlines have a mainline ex-specials, ex-fuel number (of course WN's isn't mainline it just is).
The number appears in quarterly reports... sometimes in the press releases and sometimes in the SEC filings either on a quarterly or annual basis.
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I don't have the time to look up the entire US industry and note where it was found but I did look up US and DL based on the claim that you cited.
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DL does not report its mainline CASM in its annual report but US does. So I went back to DL's press release of its quarterly results for the 4th quarter 2011 which includes the entire year. US reported its mainline CASM in its annual report which you can find on their website under investor relations
IN those documents, DL says its mainline CASM ex fuel, specials, profit sharing etc was 7.90 for the fourth quarter. US says its CASM on the same basis for the same period was 8.35.
not sure how they could make the statement that their CASM was lower than DL's....and I have never seen a mileage adjustment that shows it.
If you can find a mileage adjustment that shows it, I'd like to see it.
 
IN those documents, DL says its mainline CASM ex fuel, specials, profit sharing etc was 7.90 for the fourth quarter. US says its CASM on the same basis for the same period was 8.35.
not sure how they could make the statement that their CASM was lower than DL's....and I have never seen a mileage adjustment that shows it.
If you can find a mileage adjustment that shows it, I'd like to see it.
Ah, yes. DL excludes "ancillary businesses" which lowered mainline CASM by 0.40 cents for 2011. US doesn't. Strike one against an apples to apples comparison. That brings the difference down to 0.05 cents. US also stage length adjusts, a common practice when comparing different carriers, which further increases DL's number. Strike two. The result...US claims the lowest mainline CASM. Unfortunately, where I've seen it mentioned has been in the monthly crew news sessions and you have to have access to the secure employee site to watch those.

Jim
 
If a merger/buyout actually does happen, No Way are they going to take us and put us below the America West people. That's just not going to work. You with me?
 
Ah, yes. DL excludes "ancillary businesses" which lowered mainline CASM by 0.40 cents for 2011. US doesn't. Strike one against an apples to apples comparison. That brings the difference down to 0.05 cents. US also stage length adjusts, a common practice when comparing different carriers, which further increases DL's number. Strike two. The result...US claims the lowest mainline CASM. Unfortunately, where I've seen it mentioned has been in the monthly crew news sessions and you have to have access to the secure employee site to watch those.

Jim
ah, yes, the secret numbers.
US isn't apparently comfortable making the claim in a public setting, say with the SEC?
Maybe the reason why US doesn't deduct insourcing/ancillary business revenue is because they really don't have enough to statistically make any difference.
Every carrier or analyst that wants to compare CASM or RASM stage length adjusts... and carriers do it with their own stage length as the base.
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oh, and Jim, profit margins like RASM change are NOT stage length adjusted. They are what they are.
 
If a merger/buyout actually does happen, No Way are they going to take us and put us below the America West people. That's just not going to work. You with me?
<_< ------- That's the attitude TWA had when we were taken by AA, and look what happened! "Never say never!" And yes, it could happen!!!
 
ah, yes, the secret numbers.
US isn't apparently comfortable making the claim in a public setting, say with the SEC?

Actually, it's the other way around. While DL publishes the composite number for CASM in it's quarterly filings, US hides behind mainline only. Having an even bigger express operation than DL, percentage wise, leaving out a significant number of ASM's makes the CASM look a lot better than it really is. I don't know offhand of any carrier that stage-length adjusts numbers in the routine SEC filings since quarterly reports are reports on the specific carrier, not comparison to other carrier documents. But as you say, it's common to do so for comparison purposes which is the context in crew news sessions.

Jim
 
How good it is that the AA employees have the Delta PR department (as represented on this board) looking out for them.

Which brings me to this question: If a combination between US and AA would be such a train wreck, shouldn't DL, cutthroat competitor that they are, be cheer- leading for it?
 
If a merger/buyout actually does happen, No Way are they going to take us and put us below the America West people. That's just not going to work. You with me?
ha ha ha ha ha omg you have to be kidding me you think your even going to get a say in the matter? look what happen to the twa guys. hell you better be worried that the twa guys will get their seniority back because they were iam.
 
If a combination between US and AA would be such a train wreck, shouldn't DL, cutthroat competitor that they are, be cheer- leading for it?
no... because economic disasters in the industry are not restricted to just the companies involved.... cutting prices to fill planes that shouldn't even be flying does affect other competitors.
 
no... because economic disasters in the industry are not restricted to just the companies involved.... cutting prices to fill planes that shouldn't even be flying does affect other competitors.
"planes that shouldn't even be flying"? A snobby response but at least it was short.
 
no... because economic disasters in the industry are not restricted to just the companies involved.... cutting prices to fill planes that shouldn't even be flying does affect other competitors.
WT are you ok?
 
Would like to know how many AA main line Fleet Service workers are there 7000? any one have a good number?
 
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