United, Unions Get Deadline To Cut Deal

[casual rat]

It's great to see that someone brought their abacus to the 'party'!

 

[uafa21]

So someone can figure what the wage consession will be. What about the pension take away? And work rule changes? And the layoffs without requard to senority?

The way I read the FA proposal, they can layoff employee's without requard to senority. What's to prevent the company from hiring new fa's and laying off senior fa's that make more money? A CSR friend of mine has the same issues.

This proposal is BAD, no matter what. If management gets this, by vote or by the Judge then why have a union? What are my dues paying for? If I'm one of the higher paid fa's and I'm going to be cut because I make too much money then srew them, I don't care if the company is around or not.

 

[JungleClone]

I must admit, the FIRST thing that hit me when I saw the union proposals was the part about furloughing out of seniority. That is HUGE. You are essentially breaking the union. Is there something I'm missing? Can anyone in the know actually tell us if the company does indeed mean that literally? In other words, they can pick and choose who they want to furlough?

 

[Flyboy4u]

I know this is not the forum I should be posting in that I am an AA'er and everytime I post something on here i get shot down by a few egotistical people in the AA forum, however, I must ask the question...At what poing does the labor force stand up to big corporations and tell them enough is enough? I know it may ( or may not be ) the risk of a company filing Chapter 7 but how many wage cuts can one personally take before they realize life outside the airline industry does exist? I personally hope you guys at UAL and US fight this all the way....If if means strike than do it...This has never happend in US history and who is to say the RLA does or doesn't take precedence over a bankruptcy? With my legal past, I am not aware of anything of this ever happening in US Court history. Anyways, there is no personal vendetta for me posting this since I know the airline I work for will soon be after the same thing with us once it happens to you guys. I am certainly making future plans outside the airlines expecting the worst and hoping for the best...However, this may be the one and only chance labor can stand up for what's right and demand management be held accountable for their actions...History in the US has proven time, and time again, that those who stand up for what's right, eventhough the consequences may be dire, endup, in the end, to prevail...This goes all the way back to the revolutionary war....What good does 1980's wages do for one trying to live in the 21st century?Goodluck to you guys and we will be supporting your every move....


What Unity?

 

[mrfish3726]

Driver we'll still be here giving UniTED hell in DEN EVEN IF THEY MAKE IT OUT OF THE BK. Remember nothing EVER changes at UniTED, that's what the old timers told me the 6 years I worked there :unsure: . And you know what, they were right ! Even after the BK the same management will be in place, so what will change besides your pay check????

 

[The Gopher]

I must admit, the FIRST thing that hit me when I saw the union proposals was the part about furloughing out of seniority. That is HUGE. You are essentially breaking the union. Is there something I'm missing? Can anyone in the know actually tell us if the company does indeed mean that literally? In other words, they can pick and choose who they want to furlough?

[post="203570"][/post]​

Start furloughs with those at level 5 discipline, then work down. Everyone knows who the problem people are.

 

[ualdriver]

Where in the flight attendant proposal (or anyone elses' besides AMFA's) that there will be out of seniority furloughs? I can't seem to find any reference?

 

[atabuy]

Where in the flight attendant proposal (or anyone elses' besides AMFA's) that there will be out of seniority furloughs? I can't seem to find any reference?

[post="203607"][/post]​

This is all about setting the negotiating levels and bargaining chips that are on the table.
The bar is set high and you work from there.
Like a lawyer asking for a 10 million dollar settlement and happy to get 2 million.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Where in the flight attendant proposal (or anyone elses' besides AMFA's) that there will be out of seniority furloughs? I can't seem to find any reference?

[post="203607"][/post]​

Ualdriver,

Do you have access to skynet?
Everyone's 'Term Sheet' is there (except ALPA, go figure... )

B) UT

 

[mrfish3726]

TECH,

Your right I have seen propsals for every group at UniTED except ALPA, GO FIGURE!!! :blink:

 

[mrfish3726]

ATABUY SAYS, "This is all about setting the negotiating levels and bargaining chips that are on the table. The bar is set high and you work from there. Like a lawyer asking for a 10 million dollar settlement and happy to get 2 million.?

Keep beliving that ATA, your living in a dream world to think that UniTED will settle for anything less than what USAIR obtains. As the next few months will truly be the most trying for UniTED going into their 3rd year of BK. They will be lucky if they can make the dip payment this 4Q. If they can't make that payment expect the conssesions to be even greater!

 

[Bear96]

I'm having the same problem as ualdriver. I am looking at the AFA term sheet and I can't see anything about furloughing out of seniority order. What are y'all referring to?

I see the bit about the company being able to decide on the seniorities of those who take VOLUNTARY furlough (which makes sense-- to make a VF worthwhile, they need senior people to take it, so they may set a bar and say "Only those senior to 19XX seniority are eligible for VF) but that is a bit different from implying the Term Sheet says they can start involuntary furloughs from the top of the list and move on down.

Unless I am not seeing that part...

 

[ualdriver]

ALPA's term sheet isn't there because ALPA didn't release it until after the others were posted. I doubt they were trying to hide it from other employee groups. They just didn't want to publish it until the MEC convened and the Negotiating Committee got their hands on it.

Fish, you're wrong about a 3rd bite at the apple or whatever crap you're trying to spread. Obviously Frontier will never thrive unless UAL goes away, so as usual you're stirring the pot. The only way I could see UAL coming at us again after this is if something really bad happens (we enter bankruptcy again after we exit, terrorist attack, UAL aircraft crash, significant work interruptions/strike, increase in oil prices above and beyond where oil prices were when these new contracts were submitted, etc., etc.)

UT- wanna see ALPA's proposal? No one is trying to hide it. Here's the stuff in general:

Contract lasts until DEC 31, 2010

1.5% pay raises every year starting in 2006

8-18% paycut. 8% if we agree to lots of work rule give backs, 18% if we agree to no work rule give backs. Something in between if we agree to some work rule givebacks.

4% additional pay cut until we exit bankruptcy, 4% additonal pay cut if needed to meet DIP covenants (same as everyone)

No late night flying premium (not a big deal it was very small anyway)

28 days max vacation per year (remember that with us that if we are assigned a week's vacation, for example, and we had that day off anyway, it still burns up a vacation day for that day)

All same sick leave stuff as everyone else got

757/widebody guys will fly as much as the narrowbody guys do (sort of a big deal as the narrowbody guys have few work rules and can be away from home up to 20 days a month)

747/777 relief pilots go from 747/777 pay to A320 pay (big deal as this is a significant pay cut for those guys, around 50% and it would require UAL to rebid the entire pilot seniority list, a very expensive proposition. Lots of guys in the airline would be demoted again. We're kind of scratching our heads and wondering with this one. Probably a deal breaker in its present form.)

Replace pilot instructors currently at TK with non-UAL pilot instructors (outsourcing)

If UAL starts a freight operation again, flying might be outsourced unless we do it on the cheap as pilots

Paid absences of any type pay only 2.8 hours a day

A fund termination (this is a big deal obviously)

4% contribution to a defined benefit plan (inadequate, could be a deal breaker)

Same profit sharing plan as everyone else (inadequate, could be a deal breaker)

Same health benefits as everyone else

Well, that's basically everything, but as our leadership has said, it's all under negotiation and I would imagine what we ultimately get could look very different than the above.

 

[UAL_TECH]

ALPA's term sheet isn't there because ALPA didn't release it until after the others were posted. I doubt they were trying to hide it from other employee groups. They just didn't want to publish it until the MEC convened and the Negotiating Committee got their hands on it.

Fish, you're wrong about a 3rd bite at the apple or whatever crap you're trying to spread. Obviously Frontier will never thrive unless UAL goes away, so as usual you're stirring the pot. The only way I could see UAL coming at us again after this is if something really bad happens (we enter bankruptcy again after we exit, terrorist attack, UAL aircraft crash, significant work interruptions/strike, increase in oil prices above and beyond where oil prices were when these new contracts were submitted, etc., etc.)

UT- wanna see ALPA's proposal? No one is trying to hide it. Here's the stuff in general:

Contract lasts until DEC 31, 2010

1.5% pay raises every year starting in 2006

8-18% paycut. 8% if we agree to lots of work rule give backs, 18% if we agree to no work rule give backs. Something in between if we agree to some work rule givebacks.

4% additional pay cut until we exit bankruptcy, 4% additonal pay cut if needed to meet DIP covenants (same as everyone)

No late night flying premium (not a big deal it was very small anyway)

28 days max vacation per year (remember that with us that if we are assigned a week's vacation, for example, and we had that day off anyway, it still burns up a vacation day for that day)

All same sick leave stuff as everyone else got

757/widebody guys will fly as much as the narrowbody guys do (sort of a big deal as the narrowbody guys have few work rules and can be away from home up to 20 days a month)

747/777 relief pilots go from 747/777 pay to A320 pay (big deal as this is a significant pay cut for those guys, around 50% and it would require UAL to rebid the entire pilot seniority list, a very expensive proposition. Lots of guys in the airline would be demoted again. We're kind of scratching our heads and wondering with this one. Probably a deal breaker in its present form.)

Replace pilot instructors currently at TK with non-UAL pilot instructors (outsourcing)

If UAL starts a freight operation again, flying might be outsourced unless we do it on the cheap as pilots

Paid absences of any type pay only 2.8 hours a day

A fund termination (this is a big deal obviously)

4% contribution to a defined benefit plan (inadequate, could be a deal breaker)

Same profit sharing plan as everyone else (inadequate, could be a deal breaker)

Same health benefits as everyone else

Well, that's basically everything, but as our leadership has said, it's all under negotiation and I would imagine what we ultimately get could look very different than the above.

[post="203701"][/post]​

Ualdriver,
Thank you for your information!!!
However, as skynet is a ‘supposedly’ company internal internet provider and is in total(?) control of it’s content; why would the ALPA Term Sheet not be included automatically as were the ‘rest’ of the union Term Sheets? I may be wrong, but I do not believe that UAL ‘asked for permission’ from the AMFA if the Term Sheet could be posted on skynet and I would ‘a$$ume’ that this is the case for the IAM, AFA, CWA, TWU.

Regardless, the AMFA ‘Term Sheet’ is not only untenable, but insulting to us and those that have sacrificed before us. It is not like we have not been at this concessionary mode before and not given. We have given and given for what? Lies and intimidation!!!

As you may know, (since I have mentioned it numerous times) I will not agree to ‘any’ further concessions and I will support a strike action.

For you and the AMFA Membership, I will take one point (for now) in this ‘Term Sheet’ and throw it out for interpretation:

RE: Term Sheet November 4, 2004 (Page 8):

Termination of Defined Benefit Retirement Plans
AMFA agrees that, under the 2005-2010 Mechanics' Agreement, the Company shall not be required to maintain the United Air Lines, Inc. Union Ground Employees' Retirement Plan (the "Plan"), or provide any defined benefit pension benefits whether from a plan, including the Plan or otherwise, and may terminate the Plan without violating the 2005-2010 Mechanics' Agreement or any other agreements or status quo between the parties. AMFA further agrees that in the event the Company seeks to terminate such Plan, AMFA shall not oppose such termination.

If AMFA ‘agrees’ to have DB pension benefits ‘terminated without opposition’, how will this affect our benefits in regards to the PBGC?

The PBGC is clearly fighting accepting the UAL termination of all defined benefit plan terminations, and if AMFA is foolish enough to be an agreeable party in these proceedings, there is a great likelihood that the PBGC will reduce our benefits further because we are an agreeable accomplice.

A ‘distress termination’ (rape) is a different beast than a ‘willfull’ termination (prostitution).

If we ‘willfully’ agree to a termination of our defined pension plan, what ( if any ) benefits are ‘guaranteed’ (assuming the PBGC survives)?

JMHO,
B) UT

P.S.
Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

[mrfish3726]

UAL TECH,

To bad the PBGC couldn't be on the list of creditors in the UniTED BK HUH? At least that way everyone could make UAL liquidate and still have their retirement intact. I doubt that I'll even get the messily $426 a month that was on my statement after quitting UniTED, but I could care less really. When all is said and done IF THEY SURVIVE in some form, you know that you'll get the shaft from them AGAIN before 2010.

Now can you see why I considered myself lucky to get out of UAL HELL before I got BURNED to bad? I got burned on the ESOP that at one time was worth around 45K; I should have cut and run then!!! But I have NEVER worried about getting a retirement from any major corporation and have been saving for my own retirement for years. At 46 now with what I have saved and accumulated for my retirement, right now I'd have a comfortable 4.5K a month not counting SS. I guess that was the smartest thing I ever have done in my life. I still got about 14 more years till I could get full retirement, and that number will continue to go up and UP . So much for worrying about that big corporate retirement plan HUH?

It's not the employees of UniTED, it's the upper management hierarchy that has continually F'D that company up time and again. They have NEVER had any good relations with the employ groups for decades, except after the EFLOP, which only turned smoke and mirrors after the end of the contracts in 2000. Then it was back to the old style management way of rule by hate and intimidation. Rest assured that if the good times return and profits roll in. Tilton, McDonald, and Brace will be laughing all the way to bank! B)