Ruling May Open Door To Bids For United

[mrfish3726]

NOVAQT says "Perhaps the Judge should order the ATSB to reconsider United's loan application instead. Perhaps Congress needs to act on new ways to stabilize the industry for the short term and then study more permanent changes in the tax and transportation laws."

You got to be kidding me RIGHT! The ATSB made a VERY good decision on not bailing UniTED out at the taxpayers expense. They explained to Tilton, Brace, and McDonald that thier plan was not worthy of a multi-billion dollar TAXPAYER loan. They didn't want to make the same mistake twice as they did with USAIR. And besides, every airline that applied for a loan through the ATSB ALL had the same rules and conditions to abide by to recieve a loan. Not one company that recieved a loan did so because the ATSB board favored them over another. Face it NOVAQT, UniTED management TO THIS VERY DAY HAS NOOOOOOOOO IDEA HOW TO GET UniTED OUT OF THIS BK. And the twist that the judge tossed at UniTED management hasn't helped to further the process along. So, you sir are a disgrace to even think that UniTED is BETTER than any other airline in this country. And that the government, or taxpayers should save your job because your management team has made ALL the wrong decisions for two years now! I tell you what folks, all you high and mighty whinners over there at UniTED. Your nobody special, your job is no more important than anyone elses in this industry. This industry will survive just fine with or without UniTED. There is NO ONE or NO ONE COMPANY that can't be replaced in this industry PERIOD!

If you truly think that George W and the congress are going to get involved with what is happening in the airline industry or that they really care. Again, YOU GOT BE KIDDING ME RIGHT!!! What makes you think that UniTED should survive over ANY OTHER air carrier in this country!!!!!! What makes you think that UniTED should be given reconsideration to a still unseen and unprovided business plan. What makes you think that UniTED should be subsidized by the tax payer be it a loan from the ATSB or the dumping of your pensions on to the back of the PBGC? The government doesn't care if ANY of the big boys survive in this FREE MARKET society. They could care less if UniTED, USAIR, or Delta join the long and distinquished list of the HAS BEENS.

As for changes in the laws, I don't think that you will see any legislation any time soon to outlaw the LCC LOL. Even as much as all you legacy players would like to see that happen. I can't wait for the day when SWA is ranked as the #1 carrier in the entire country . This will only show that true LEADERSHIP, DEDICATION to your employees, and a COMMITMENT to your share holders is what truly makes a company #1. One thing that UniTED has never had or EVER WILL! So face it NOVAQT you'll be lucky to see UniTED even survive this one!

 

[WorldTraveler]

UA's decision to delay terminating the pensions could prove pivotal in UA's reorganization. I believe there will be a party emerge that will be willing to acquire UA and reorganize them while keeping UA's pensions. Another airline with underfunded pensions (such as DL or CO) who would be willing to retain UA's pensions in returnment for some deferments would seem like a savior to the PBGC.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Another airline with underfunded pensions (such as DL or CO) who would be willing to retain UA's pensions in returnment for some deferments would seem like a savior to the PBGC.

[post="239531"][/post]​

[/quote]

Traveler, how would any deferment even allow a carrier to justify taking on said pensions. The unions would have to agree to let that carrier chop its pensions down to the level PBGC would have paid anyway...and who would want to put their reduced pension in the hands of a struggling, now giant carrier, instead of good ol' taxpayer? PBGC is going to end up with all the major's pensions, barring a complete overhaul in the pension laws and help from Uncle Sam. My question is what role will ATSB moneys play in the coming consolidation?....I think I read part of their charter included using the moneys for mergers and the like. Best. Greeter.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The ATSB won't commit any new funds to consolidation although you are right that the ATSB originally said funds could be used for that purpose - which gives you an idea of something of the government's intent. I still believe they would rather see legacy airlines consolidate which largely means eliminating excess hubs - where the real opportunity to increase efficiency in the legacy segment comes from.

I don't think it is necessary for carriers to dump their pensions on the PBGC in order to survive. Washington is very concerned about the level of underfunding in the airline industry and wants to both ensure that additional defaults do not occur and increase the financial commitment airlines have to protect the government from additional liabilities. I think Uncle Sam is taking a hard line to deter thoughts of additional pension dumping but when push comes to shove I believe they will provide relief on a case by case basis if it means not having to assume responsibility for some of those pensions.
I also do not think UA is far enough down the road to bankruptcy where it is necessary to terminate all of the pensions; they just need relief so that they don't have to pay $500M plus pension payments per year.
While some think I give DL far too much credit, they recognized the pension problem several years ago and froze their defined benefit plans for non-pilots several years and froze the pilot plan more recently. Like UA, DL has offered alot of early retirement that has put alot of stress on their pension plans and artificially increased their pension underfunding. The first step to fixing the pension problem is to quit perpetuating it. Then it is possible to decide how much of the pension obligations can be handled in the course of doing business.
As I mentioned in my PM to you, I believe US' pension termination will dramatically increased the company's "sale-ability". UA recognizes the same principle applies when looking for financing but will not find termination will happen quite as "easily" as US. AA, CO, DL, and NW plus all of the LCCs do not want UA to be able to terminate their pensions so UA will be fighting a battle that will set an unhealthy precedent but one that no one wants to be set.

Good evening, Fly. The Dr. said my EEGs look good and all remaining brain functions are normal. I do smile and laugh alot more than I used to so maybe a lobotomy is a good investment.

 

[JFK777]

If the judge did rule UA assets are going to the highest bidder, let the feast begin. How much is Asia worth? AA is getting those pencils sharpened. LHR should be worth a pretty penny too.

 

[WorldTraveler]

UA is far from being liquidated and sold off in pieces. If someone comes along and is willing to take UA pretty close it in its entirety, things could change.

 

[Winglet]

The only way anybody would even begin to buy UAL or any major is on the courthouse steps after all union agreements and leases are null and void, a la TWA. Even after that, you can see what a stupid move buying TWA was.

Health-wise UAL is in grave trouble and getting worse. Oil prices and industry deflation on top of rudderless management is very likely to kill UAL.

 

[mweiss]

...multi-billion dollar TAXPAYER loan.

[post="239496"][/post]​

Maybe it's about time that you learned that the ATSB loans are not taxpayer loans. :huh:

 

[Fly]

Hi Weiss....where have you been hiding? Meet Fish....he's stupid!

 

[mweiss]

Hi Fly!

I've been working. But things were slow during the holidays. I'll have to disappear into the woodwork again soon.

As for Fish, he was around before I left. I already figured out who he is.

 

[novaqt]

Fish:

What a putrid and disgraceful reply. Looks like it touched a nerve. Your flagrant and public display on United's forum is nothing more than continuous pitiful self-aggrandizement. As a former employee of the company you CHOSE to leave, you don't look back and repeatedly slam and insult the company and employees you formerly worked with. I am sure while you worked at United, you didn't say the things you do today.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Not really a good parallel. KMart got its financial house in order and started making a profit--thus the funds available to purchase Sears. Neither UAL nor U are predicting a profit anytime soon, even with these horrific concessions.

[post="239437"][/post]​

KMart did not get their financial house in order (have you even been in one of their stores lately??) Ed Lampert, the major KMart shareholder, owned 15% of Sears and combined these two struggling companies because of the real estate value.


As for UA, all this speculation about bids and routes is silly.

Ain't nothing going to happen until the $6bil pension obligation is finessed.

And UA has Glenn and Jake in their corner -- what to worry??

 

[casual rat]

Fish:

What a putrid and disgraceful reply.  Looks like it touched a nerve.  Your flagrant and public display on United's forum is nothing more than continuous pitiful self-aggrandizement.  As a former employee of the company you CHOSE to leave, you don't look back and repeatedly slam and insult the company and employees you formerly worked with.  I am sure while you worked at United, you didn't say the things you do today.

[post="239885"][/post]​

You'd better define 'aggrandizement' for the Chum. He has a difficult enough time trying to spell anything as complex as D-O-G, or C-A-T. I doubt that he has a dictionary (it's not where your urologist practices Chum), pictionary perhaps. I won't speculate on what kind of dinosaur he thinks a thesaurus is....He does pretty good with the swear words, I gotta give him a tip of the cap on that !

 

[markkus757]

If the judge decides he wants other options besides more "time", UA has enough assets to attract the vultures of the industry. U and UA are not going to merge. The only thing that they have in common would be future liquidation.................