United To Consider Acquisitions

[Hopeful]

It is sad that your life has been difficult in the airline industry Hopeful but you really are throwing flames at the wrong people. When AA threatened bk, your people greased up their own butts and took it faster than any of us already in bk. The work rules (for AA f/a's) is horrible. UAL has nothing as bad as those work rules. After seeing AA f/a's lose everything, our f/a's decided to take bigger paycuts to retain our workrules. Remember, ours were forced IN bankruptcy but your airlines took them OUT of bankruptcy. I'm thinking that you should probably go to the AA board and flame people seeing that the biggest concessions were taken from them.

Where did I ever defend AA? Go back and read my posts. You seem to missing my point. AA is among the worst and what makes it even more aggravating is that they have the unions in their bed helping sell the concessions. I am upset with the whole airline management greed syndrome. I am proud to have helped put EAL under rather than work on Lorenzo's rules. Few more years til retirement, but until then I will post on this board wherever I choose, as long as I adhere to the board's guidelines. When you get a chance, go read the AA forums and see the flames I have ignited there.

You seem to be more angry with my postings than you seem to be mad at your management.

Did you applaud when the fat cats got 8% of the company?

It is people like you and jamake who have helped the airlines destroy the airline worker. So keep directing your anger at people like me who took a stand at EAL, and get on the side of management who constantly remind you how lucky you are to have a job.

Keep being the sheep you are because when the airlines tell you they dont even have to match your paltry 401k and contribute anthing towards your medical benedits anymore, it will be easier to take it where you've been getting it since bankruptcy.


Ta TA, sheep!

 

[JAMAKE1]

Oh please... I have been around for a long time. I've worked for four airlines, I've been through two airline mergers, I've been furloughed, and I've most recently worked for a bankrupt company. I am not some flighty 20 year old happy to work for nothing. I just refuse to buy into the "I'm a victim...look what the airline did to ME!" mentality. I control my destiny...not United Airlines. If I am not happy with the pay, workrules, and benefits offered during a time of market correction and globalization, then I can CHOOSE to go elsewhere. I refuse to give my power away to United or any other company. I get to choose whether or not I want to work under the conditions set, based on the market, or walk away.

As for "greedy" management: It is no secret that the there is an imbalance in executive level compensation in this country. I don't dispute that. However, it takes a significantly greater skill set to run a Fortune 500 company than to serve Cokes at 35,000 feet. I think it is human nature to negotiate the best for ourselves. When one possesses unique skill-sets that are highly sought after, then one has the advantage of commanding their worth. There is a significantly larger labor pool in this country of people who are willing to do my job and other front-line jobs (think NWA mechanics) for considerably less. So labor, collectively, does not have the power to leverage themselves in the way a person with a unique skill-set and who is more difficult to replace, can.

If I decide I want to earn an MBA in high finance and spend 12 hours a day crunching numbers in a cubicle, then I can certainly choose to do that and my efforts will most likely yield much greater financial rewards. The fact of the matter is, I probably work in a month, what those MBA-types work in a week. So who am I to say that they shouldn't get paid a bonus or a get a greater stake in the company? Their unique skill-set affords them the ability to command their worth at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, I (we) no longer have that advantage. If you think I am part of the problem, because I don't harbor feelings of betrayal and bitterness, then so be it. No matter what I say is going to change your mind.

At the end of the day, I still have a job that I like to show up to, I still have medical and dental benefits that are better than most, and I have an opportuniy to maximize my earnings potential to make up for the givebacks we've taken. When I sit back and assess, for me, it is STILL a pretty good gig compared to most jobs that my skill-set qualifies me for. Enough said....

 

[Hopeful]

Oh please... I have been around for a long time. I've worked for four airlines, I've been through two airline mergers, I've been furloughed, and I've most recently worked for a bankrupt company. I am not some flighty 20 year old happy to work for nothing. I just refuse to buy into the "I'm a victim...look what the airline did to ME!" mentality. I control my destiny...not United Airlines. If I am not happy with the pay, workrules, and benefits offered during a time of market correction and globalization, then I can CHOOSE to go elsewhere. I refuse to give my power away to United or any other company. I get to choose whether or not I want to work under the conditions set, based on the market, or walk away.

As for "greedy" management: It is no secret that the there is an imbalance in executive level compensation in this country. I don't dispute that. However, it takes a significantly greater skill set to run a Fortune 500 company than to serve Cokes at 35,000 feet. I think it is human nature to negotiate the best for ourselves. When one possesses unique skill-sets that are highly sought after, then one has the advantage of commanding their worth. There is a significantly larger labor pool in this country of people who are willing to do my job and other front-line jobs (think NWA mechanics) for considerably less. So labor, collectively, does not have the power to leverage themselves in the way a person with a unique skill-set and who is more difficult to replace, can.

If I decide I want to earn an MBA in high finance and spend 12 hours a day crunching numbers in a cubicle, then I can certainly choose to do that and my efforts will most likely yield much greater financial rewards. The fact of the matter is, I probably work in a month, what those MBA-types work in a week. So who am I to say that they shouldn't get paid a bonus or a get a greater stake in the company? Their unique skill-set affords them the ability to command their worth at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, I (we) no longer have that advantage. If you think I am part of the problem, because I don't harbor feelings of betrayal and bitterness, then so be it. No matter what I say is going to change your mind.

At the end of the day, I still have a job that I like to show up to, I still have medical and dental benefits that are better than most, and I have an opportuniy to maximize my earnings potential to make up for the givebacks we've taken. When I sit back and assess, for me, it is STILL a pretty good gig compared to most jobs that my skill-set qualifies me for. Enough said....

And you do not need an MBA to run a Fortune 500 firm. All you have to do is layoff thousands of employees and cut wages and benefits!

Any moron can run a company to profitablity just on the backs of labor.

 

[JAMAKE1]

Any moron can run a company to profitablity just on the backs of labor.

The problem I have with people of your mentality, is that they don't want to take responsibility for the choices they have made in life. They would rather make big bad corporate America the scapegoat for their current state of misery. We can debate back and forth until we are blue in the face, but guess what? I'm not miserable. I'm not a victim. And I am not bitter. And I get to assess, re-evaluate, and re-choose if my career choices no longer work for me. I am choosing to adapt to the realities of the marketplace and make the best of what I do have. You seem to resent me because I don't subscribe to your philosophy. My mother, who happens to be in her mid-sixties, has a girl friend who just graduated from law school....at age 67. She is currently studying for the BAR exam and has every intention of practicing law. The beauty of America is that we have the opportunity to re-invent ourselves if our life choices no longer make us happy. I refuse to go to my grave, jaded, bitter, and miserable simply because I had to take a paycut because my company went bankrupt and the industry that I've chosen to work in, happened to undergo an economic market correction. If you want to think that I see through rose-colored glasses and am drinking some corporate Kool-Aide because I don't subscribe to your victimhood, then so be it...

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

The saddest part here is realizing that you are reading the sorrows of a man who has given his life for an unthankful industry. Don't let them make you a victim Hopeful. You're bigger than that.

 

[UnitedChicago]

Hey there JAMAKE - keep up the excellent posts! You provide a much needed logical, and informed perspective.

Oh please... I have been around for a long time. I've worked for four airlines, I've been through two airline mergers, I've been furloughed, and I've most recently worked for a bankrupt company. I am not some flighty 20 year old happy to work for nothing. I just refuse to buy into the "I'm a victim...look what the airline did to ME!" mentality. I control my destiny...not United Airlines. If I am not happy with the pay, workrules, and benefits offered during a time of market correction and globalization, then I can CHOOSE to go elsewhere. I refuse to give my power away to United or any other company. I get to choose whether or not I want to work under the conditions set, based on the market, or walk away.

As for "greedy" management: It is no secret that the there is an imbalance in executive level compensation in this country. I don't dispute that. However, it takes a significantly greater skill set to run a Fortune 500 company than to serve Cokes at 35,000 feet. I think it is human nature to negotiate the best for ourselves. When one possesses unique skill-sets that are highly sought after, then one has the advantage of commanding their worth. There is a significantly larger labor pool in this country of people who are willing to do my job and other front-line jobs (think NWA mechanics) for considerably less. So labor, collectively, does not have the power to leverage themselves in the way a person with a unique skill-set and who is more difficult to replace, can.

If I decide I want to earn an MBA in high finance and spend 12 hours a day crunching numbers in a cubicle, then I can certainly choose to do that and my efforts will most likely yield much greater financial rewards. The fact of the matter is, I probably work in a month, what those MBA-types work in a week. So who am I to say that they shouldn't get paid a bonus or a get a greater stake in the company? Their unique skill-set affords them the ability to command their worth at the negotiating table. Unfortunately, I (we) no longer have that advantage. If you think I am part of the problem, because I don't harbor feelings of betrayal and bitterness, then so be it. No matter what I say is going to change your mind.

At the end of the day, I still have a job that I like to show up to, I still have medical and dental benefits that are better than most, and I have an opportuniy to maximize my earnings potential to make up for the givebacks we've taken. When I sit back and assess, for me, it is STILL a pretty good gig compared to most jobs that my skill-set qualifies me for. Enough said....

 

[dc3fanatic]

The problem I have with people of your mentality, is that they don't want to take responsibility for the choices they have made in life. They would rather make big bad corporate America the scapegoat for their current state of misery. We can debate back and forth until we are blue in the face, but guess what? I'm not miserable. I'm not a victim. And I am not bitter. And I get to assess, re-evaluate, and re-choose if my career choices no longer work for me. I am choosing to adapt to the realities of the marketplace and make the best of what I do have. You seem to resent me because I don't subscribe to your philosophy. My mother, who happens to be in her mid-sixties, has a girl friend who just graduated from law school....at age 67. She is currently studying for the BAR exam and has every intention of practicing law. The beauty of America is that we have the opportunity to re-invent ourselves if our life choices no longer make us happy. I refuse to go to my grave, jaded, bitter, and miserable simply because I had to take a paycut because my company went bankrupt and the industry that I've chosen to work in, happened to undergo an economic market correction. If you want to think that I see through rose-colored glasses and am drinking some corporate Kool-Aide because I don't subscribe to your victimhood, then so be it...

What cracks me up on these message boards is the sentiment that all the management from all the airlines are conspiring together to make the line worker's life hell. That's not their goal in life.

OR the sentiment that they could just turn a knob and be profitable. Surely, they could all just raise price in concert (without illegal collusion) and make the industry healthy.

OR the fact you must be immoral if you are in management. A MORAL person couldn't possibly be in management. (sarcasm)

Obviously, the fact that the following companies have been in bankruptcy since 2001 is an indication of mgmt collusion to screw over the line worker rather than an industry correction: US Airways (x2), United, NWA, Delta, FlyI, Aloha, Hawaiian, ?? (Just how much of domestic capacity does that represent?)

 

[Bear96]

And you do not need an MBA to run a Fortune 500 firm.

If it's so easy to manage a large company, and the financial rewards for doing so are so great, why aren't you out there being the senior manager of a Fortune 500 firm and reaping ther rewards that go with that jog?

I'm sure your philosophy of "give the workers whatever they say they want no matter what the market conditions are" will make your company a resounding success.

 

[Hopeful]

This is my last post on this matter. I have earned the right to be angry with airline management. I was one of thousands who stood up to Lorenzo, and to this day, I have NO regrets! None!
Jamake has a problem with people of my mentality who do not take responsibility for the choices I have made in my life.

Let me enlighten you, Jamake! I made a damn good choice going to work for an airline 36 years ago. Did I destroy my career? No! Greedy airline executives who put profits before people did!

Tell me what happened Jamake.

Would you say Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn were pro labor?

If no one believes that airline executives have not participated in union breaking are foolish. They have used the bankruptcy courts to break the backs of the airline worker. The only difference with AA is that they own the unions on the property who assist management in taking us down even further.

Ask yourself this: HAVE YOUR COMPANY EXECUTIVES SHARED IN THE SAME SACRIFICE THAT YOU DID?


And to answer Bear96 questioning why I haven't become a senior manager since it is quite easy, I'll say this:

I AM NOT AN :censored: KISSING MBA PENCIL PUSHER.I DID NOT SELL MY SOUL TO LORENZO, AND I WILL NEVER DO SO FOR ANYONE NOR ANYTHING!
Enough said!

 

[JAMAKE1]

Hopeful:

I want to say that I very much respect what the employees did at Eastern Airlines. They made the ultimate sacrifice to stop Frank Lorenzo from destroying further aviation careers. I, by no means meant to diminish the noble stand that you and the employees of Eastern Airlines took to thwart Frank Lorenzo from further eroding the aviation profession. Having said that, the industry is very different today as companies have been forced to adapt to globalization as well as intense low-cost competition at home.

Furthermore, I believe that everyone associated with the airline industry, whether management or labor, has had to make sacrifices throughout the effects of 9/11, sky-rocketing fuel prices, and throughout the numerous corporate restructurings. I am by no means pro-management. I do however consider myself a realist. The reality is is that my position is more easily replacable than some in airline management who bring a highly specialized skill-set to their profession. When one is less easily replacable, one enjoys more leverage with which to negotiate one's compensation package. I don't happen to agree with you that people who have earned MBA's are out to merely break the backs of labor. It indeed does suck that the gravy train, that we rode for a while, is over. But having experienced the world outside the aviation industry, realitive to my skill-set, I have concluded, that in spite of all that I have gone through with regard to pay cuts, work-rule changes, and pension dumps, that believe it or not, it continues to be a viable career for myself, for the moment. So I am the one who gets to ultimately decide whether or not a career in aviation is right for me. For the time being, I am choosing to stick it out.

I do not believe in being a victim. I, like you, continue to be troubled by what I see as the thinning middle class in this country. But rather than being at the effects of it, I am empowering myself to make other choices that will enhance my skill-set and marketability in the work place. In the Fall of 2006, I am uprooting myself from the Bay Area and moving to Daytona Beach, FL to complete my BS in Aviation Business Administration at Embry Riddle. While I do have a lot of criticisms about where our country is headed, I am also greatful to live in a place that allows me the option to assess where I am, consider where I would like to eventually be with regard to future earnings potential, and then have the ability and opportunity to re-evaluate and re-choose. And that my friend, is the real beauty of America.

I wish you the best in whatever life choices you decide to make for yourself.

Respectfully,

Jamake1

 

[PITbull]

It is sad that your life has been difficult in the airline industry Hopeful but you really are throwing flames at the wrong people. When AA threatened bk, your people greased up their own butts and took it faster than any of us already in bk. The work rules (for AA f/a's) is horrible. UAL has nothing as bad as those work rules. After seeing AA f/a's lose everything, our f/a's decided to take bigger paycuts to retain our workrules. Remember, ours were forced IN bankruptcy but your airlines took them OUT of bankruptcy. I'm thinking that you should probably go to the AA board and flame people seeing that the biggest concessions were taken from them.

Nope. I don't believe there is an airline out there that took it faster up the butt than U employees. 22,000 employees furloughed, 2 BK in 3 years, pension dumping, concessions by employees that soared to $2.5 billion per year tied into 7 year contracts with wages back to the 80's, and work rules that are the poorest of any legacy carrier as reported in the BK hearings. The USAirways BK business model was thought up by their union busting new hired managment. The rest is your history.

Speaking from experience at U, I agree with HOPEFUL. The biggest atrocity is senior level managment literally taking more money home while in BK than before bK. There has been NO CORRECTION in senior level compensation. The sacrifices have only been applied to the rank and file employees. Those who forget history tend to repeat it over and over and over again.

Hats off to you Hopeful, for kicking Lorenzo in the teeth and stopping the carnage at that time. Unfortunately, the neo-lorenzos have multiplied in the Yale/Harvard business schools and are using BK to correct their balance sheets while burdening the taxpayers who not only fly their airline, but have to pay the liabilities they dumped.

I for one won't let anyone forget; I'll be sharing our history with those who care to hear it; or, those who don't! B)

 

[JAMAKE1]

Yawn... ^_^

 

[Bear96]

This is my last post on this matter. I have earned the right to be angry with airline management.

Great! Good for you! You have the "right."

Now take a moment to reflect on whether it is a wise choice for you to spend your time and energy being consumed by this anger you earned the "right" to have.

I was one of thousands who stood up to Lorenzo, and to this day, I have NO regrets! None!

I don't think anyone here has criticized any EAL employee for standing up to Lorenzo. I agree with Jamake that that was the right thing to do at the time, and people like you have earned the respect of every other unionized airline employee out there today who has any awareness of what happened then.

If no one believes that airline executives have not participated in union breaking are foolish. They have used the bankruptcy courts to break the backs of the airline worker.

...

Ask yourself this: HAVE YOUR COMPANY EXECUTIVES SHARED IN THE SAME SACRIFICE THAT YOU DID?

I don't think anyone is suggesting anything to the contrary about that either. Of course airline management is going on a huge land grab getting what they can from labor (in fact, they pretty much have a duty to do so under the laws in the U.S. governing corporations, but that is a topic for another thread).

The question for labor now is, What are you gonna do about it? The choices are: (1) Work to change the political system including laws governing corporations (pretty much impossible in this hard-core Republican era when the President is not a person but a corporation disguised as a person (apologies to Ralph Nader), where the average Joe in Kansas is more worried about stamping out the threat of gay marriage than he is about economic, social and foreign policies that threaten him and his family); (2) Leave, dust yourself off, get appropriate further education or training and find an satisfying occupation that more appropriately rewards the skills you have (the option I took); (3) Accept and adjust (Jamake's approach, for now); or (4) Do nothing and remain angry and bitter.

Life is all about choices.

And to answer Bear96 questioning why I haven't become a senior manager since it is quite easy, I'll say this:

I AM NOT AN :censored: KISSING MBA PENCIL PUSHER.I DID NOT SELL MY SOUL TO LORENZO, AND I WILL NEVER DO SO FOR ANYONE NOR ANYTHING!
Enough said!

So you made your choice in life, as is your right, to be an employee / follower instead of a business owner / leader. With that choice came a lower salary and frustration at being at the mercy of the business leaders of the country.

Now deal with your choice, and let Jamake deal with his.

Please enlighten us as to where,

Bill Gates EARNED an MBA?

Steve Jobs EARNED an MBA?

Louis Foy EARNED an MBA?

Bob Metcalf EARNED an MBA?

My MBA?? I work in a company that has 19 people who do what I do and 18 have MBA's yet when it came time for the biggest product launch in our history who did they pick??

The High School Graduate! ME!

Wow, Bob, impressive! A post that added absolutely nothing to the conversation!

But wait -- now I see why you had the urge to post such nothingness -- because it is all about Bob! And I guess you were getting nervous that a whole thread was unfolding that didn't mention you at all, so you had to come around and mark your territory.

USAviation: All Bob, all the time!

Even worse, your post about you doesn't even make sense. (Might want to sharpen up on those reading comprehension skills.) I in no way suggested one needs an MBA to run a company, so I'm not sure about what I can "enlighten" you.

I do think Hopeful lacks the skills and qualifications necessary to successfully run a Fortune 500 company (N.B.! We are talking about actual senior management here, not someone who sells office equipment to them). But it's not solely because he lacks an MBA.

 

[JAMAKE1]

And I guess you were getting nervous that a whole thread was unfolding that didn't mention you at all, so you had to come around and mark your territory.

As did PitBull...

Bear:

Do you ever notice there are those in life who talk TO you...and others who talk AT you...? :wacko:

 

[dc3fanatic]

USAviation: All Bob, all the time!

It's like we're back at DCA during the express accident with the E170. "I was there!" "I was there!" "I was there!"


SO!!! let's do some basic logic here:

An MBA isn't required to run a big company, and is often very helpful and is something they screen for.

A LACK of an MBA isn't criteria for qualification to run a F500.

If it makes you feel better, why don't you see how many 'top executives' in F500 have MBAs and how many don't? The 5-7 people you listed would be in the <0.5% minority.

Just because you don't have any MBA doesn't mean you have the ability to run a fortune 500. It takes the essence of an MBA and much more, which you may or may not have.

Stating that you can run a F500 because you don't have an MBA and you could just succeed by cutting labor is short sighted.