United Airlines Reduces Business Fares With Discounts Up To 40% Off Unrestricted, Refundable Coach F

[George Zip]

Busdrvr,

I have to say you are creating a shameful reflection on your fellow UAL aviators, the great majority of which I find to be truly wonderful people and excellent pilots. Let us not, however, get into the topic of closet skeletons without reminding you of some mighty big bones behind the UAL door.

The shabby poachers you mention at two of your biggest hubs now have younger fleets than you do, and have NO hull losses attributable to pilot error. Nor did they nearly fly a fully loaded 747 into a mountain after takeoff attributable to nothing outside the crew failing to maintain heading after an engine failure.

Should we discuss the legendary hiring practices? No, let's not go there.

More than half my family income is gone as of March 1 due to UAL furloughs, so I am one of the loudest cheerleaders there are for a healthy, recovered UAL. I believe UAL to be among the best in the world - but you have a warped view of reality if you truly believe your OAL pilot comments. Please observe the plank in your own eye before you pull the splinter out of mine.

signed - OAL pilot.

 

[Speedbird]

Diesel8:

You should be nominated for Sainthood!

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 1133 AM George Zip wrote:

Busdrvr,

"Let us not, however, get into the topic of closet skeletons without reminding you of some mighty big bones behind the UAL door."

Go for it. This is a forum of DISCUSSION.

"The shabby poachers you mention at two of your biggest hubs now have younger fleets than you do, and have NO hull losses attributable to pilot error. Nor did they nearly fly a fully loaded 747 into a mountain after takeoff attributable to nothing outside the crew failing to maintain heading after an engine failure."

Did it result in a hull loss? If you are counting "close", do it for everyone.

"Should we discuss the legendary hiring practices? No, let's not go there."

Again GO FOR IT! If you mean folks hired because UAL was ordered to by a federal judge, then we can go there. The ignorant influence of folks outside the profession would be a lively topic.

"More than half my family income is gone as of March 1 due to UAL furloughs, so I am one of the loudest cheerleaders there are for a healthy, recovered UAL. I believe UAL to be among the best in the world - but you have a warped view of reality if you truly believe your OAL pilot comments."

signed - OAL pilot.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Do I think most of the other majors have an equivilent product? Absolutely. The discussion degenerated into whether or not an airline that pays half the salary of a major can attract the same level of talent. I say no. If you think they can, then you should prepare yourself for another 50% cut in household income, since you obviously feel you are overpaid. BTW, what airline do YOU fly for?

 

[Positive Rate]

Busdrvr:

It's obvious you are a very bitter person. I'm very sorry that things are that bad for you. I truly sympathize with the fine professionals at UAL in these tough times. However, frustrated as you may be, bitterness and anger towards others will not ease your own woes.

I hope you get better.

Pos Rate

 

[Diesel8]

BusDrivr siad: "The discussion degenerated into whether or not an airline that pays half the salary of a major can attract the same level of talent."

Well, you took it there

I know a few pilots at UAL, all of them great guys and girls. I know even more, not exactly an exclusive club, who was turned down by UAL. Needless to say, this fact probably has more to do with hiring practices than skills. While I am sure, that there are some that has horrendous backgrounds, I would bet that most have excellent backgrounds.

The number of pilots at UAL was around ten or 11 thousand, while the number of Commercial Pilots in the US is around 250K, with quite a few more in the armed forces. One would have to believe, that some of those, have skills equal to or better than any of us.

It reminds me of the great movie: The Right Stuff.

"Who is the greatest pilot of all time? Hmmm, I knew this guy who could turn the envelope inside out and bring it home safely, his name....? Who is the greatest of all time, well, it's me, of course."

 

[George Zip]

While there is no doubt that in general the highest talent is generally attracted to the highest remunerative compensations, you mistakenly think that hiring (anywhere, but certainly at UAL) is done solely via merit based data points.


As a result, many of the most talented people I have known end up in career positions that aren't the carriers they dreamed of as a kid. They weren't in the right "group" to be considered until they had many hours, years, and effort invested elsewhere. The decision looks a lot different when you look at it in later years.

Having said that, The people I fly with now have been circling the globe (literally) to places I can't pronounce and you probably haven't heard of, in widebody airplanes, without company stations or much support for 30 years.....and BTW no hull losses. Frankly, I find this kind of flying (and the work I used to do, in 727's shooting non-precision approaches in the mountains in foreign countries )far more challenging, satisfying and exciting than the Chicago - Tulsa runs I have done in the past. I'd do this for far less pay than the "milk run" alternative. It's just my preference.

Never will you see me say that I think that makes pilots who choose otherwise, or who don't reach their lofty ambition of a career at one of the "big 3 or 4" any different from you. Would I have chosen UAL if I had the chance? Absolutely. Did my past employers have our best and brightest turned down by UAL only to have them take our rejects and laughingstocks? Absolutely. Does that change my perception that UAL pilots have been some of the best folks I have had the pleasure to associate with? No way.

I bet you're a pretty sharp pilot (really). But I think you are ignorant to how good some of the operations you slam are. My apologies if am misconstruing your intent, but it sounded like you simply don't believe OAL pilots are up to your standard at UAL. This is patently false.

Who do I work for? The airline that operates out of Midway, poaching your traffic, has NEVER had a pilot attributable hull loss, and was named "medium airline of the year" by ATW this fall.

OAL pilot

 

[Speedbird]

GeorgeZip:

I must agree with you, I think busdrvr is a very talented pilot. He is also the beneficiary of good timing, and god-given abilites that often determine the outcome of a pilot's career many years before the so-called prize is won.

As a fellow Air Force pilot, I also respect busdrvr's willingness to serve his country, and I know just a little bit about the sacrifices he's made to obtain and keep the wings of silver he earned. For that I salute him and respect his achievements.

However, there are a few things I vehemently disagree with him on. This particular subject happens to be the most recent example.

For some unknown reason, busdrvr has a strong distaste for some OAL pilots and their decisions to work for certain airlines. He attempts to use a flawed logic to assume that all professional/airline pilots can be separated into two camps:

1. Those who want to fly for a major airline (i.e., United Airlines), and are successfully hired by one. Or;

2. Those who want to fly for a major airline, and for some fundamental reasons (usually dealing with their professional abilities, or lack thereof) they must accept employment with an airline which is considered second-rate, and therefore appropriate for their station on the ladder of professional achievement.

While busdrvr may be motivated and raised to believe that such a scenario is true, he certainly doesn't know, or has lived the experiences of the 100,000's of professional pilots who journeyed the many, varied paths to reach their goals (or perhaps failed to do so)as professional pilots, in this often fickle and cruel business.

Yet despite this fact, he is more than happy to tell someone like myself why I work for an airline like jetBlue. I am not only offended by such an arrogant, and poorly thought out position, but I also amazed that such a person is willing to make such inflammatory statements on a public forum, and then attempt to defend them as he does.

Busdrvr,

Let me dispell your myth right here by using my experience.

First of all, I achieved high levels of success in my professional education, having graduated with honors both as an undergraduate (Accounting) and in post-graduate work (MBA).

Second, I was accepted into pilot training in the USAF and graduated to become a T-37 FAIP. I was a distinguished graduate at PIT, and went on to fly five different aircraft types & three different MWS. I also graduated as a DG in my initial training in one of these MWS platforms. In all types but one, I served as an IP. In one system I served as a stan/eval EP.

I've flown over 200 hours of combat time in two different wars (Desert Storm & Kosovo). I have extensive international flying experience, and have NEVER busted a form 8 checkride in my 20-year career with the AF. I have never received a violation, nor suffered a mishap in an aircraft. By all standards, I've had a superlative aviation career up to this point.

Now my reasons for selecting jetBlue as my employer involved many factors. The first one was my age. In 1990-91, I attempted to separate from the Air Force, but was unable to get out soon enough before all airline hiring ceased. I had to remain on active duty and take an onerous seven-year "pilot-bonus" commitment, or be placed in a non-flying tour. That sealed my fate to remain in the AF for 20 years.

Wind forward to 2000-01, I now find myself at age 43, trying to pick up a job at any airline on the tail end of big hiring boom. I knew enough to know that my chance for sitting at the bottom of a 10,000 pilot seniority list with a lot of younger guys and gals in front of me would mean a very slow upgrade to captain. Also the risk of quick furlough if the economy took a nose-dive was not an appealing option. But despite that I'd accept those terms.

I successfully interviewed with Delta & jetBlue in the fall of 2000. jetBlue however, offered me a class in early 2001, and Delta put me in a pool with a class date TBD. I figured I go with jetBlue, and at least wait for Delta with a later training date. As it turned out, that Delta class never materialized and I remained on at jetBlue.

What I lost ten years earlier in job and seniority opportunity, I regained with B6 in 2001. That being a quick upgrade to captain, and an excellent seniority position. It was a big risk, to stay with them, but external events which occurred to the industry made my decision easy. Since then I've been extrememly grateful for my employment and have never looked back.

Jetblue is an exceptional company, with exceptional management, and employees who are very happy to be there, and make my work experience very enjoyable and satisfying. For me and my personal situation, it is an ideal match for my career aspirations.

Is it the right choice? I won't know for another 15 years at least, but so far I couldn't have done better.

So you see busdrvr, it isn't always as you think it is.

 

[Busdrvr]

"Is it the right choice? I won't know for another 15 years at least, but so far I couldn't have done better."

I'll let you know in 25.

"So you see busdrvr, it isn't always as you think it is."

I must admit I had you pegged as one of those "banked" Tanker guys
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif'] But a tweet FAIP using "speedbird" as a screen name?! COME ON! [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/6.gif'] Had Delta offered you the same class date as JBlu, would you have gone to DAL at the time? Why? I agree (and have stated in the past) that Jblu got some REALLY good folks post hiring boom (like apparently you). My whole point was simply an economic one. When you are the best paying outfit at the time of hiring, you tend to have a bigger group to chose from, and get first dibs. If your company is NOT perceived to be the place of choice at the time, you get the left-overs. One only need to look at the CAL DC-9 crash or the steller FQ 50's on UALs list to understand the concept. Do I think ALL airlines have an equivilent level of competant pilots? NO! (although I feel better about Jblu [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif']) as long as you have parasites like Johnny Orenstein in the industry, we will be played against each other in a continuing downward wage spiral. I must admit ALPA has a great deal of culpability in the current mess due to it's insistance on "pattern" bargaining instead of demanding ALL (union AND non-union) carriers pay at least a minimum level. But Speedy, since you were an EP will you help me explain to KC that there is NEVER a good reason to overspeed each and every flap setting from 1 to 40 and cross the numbers 40 knots hot? He thinks that kind of thing happens by "accident"

george,
Those funny places you've been to? I likely flew in your airstairs[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif'] .

 

[UnitedChicago]

Totally not my area...but are the UA planes 737s? Because I know at one point the FAA urged flying the 737s faster on approach (obviously within acceptable speeds) to increase control surface response in case of an unexpected upset. All of course related to the lost UA and U 737s.

My two cents.

 

[KCFlyer]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/8/2003 6:18:47 PM Busdrvr wrote: [BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/8/2003 6:00:59 PM KCFlyer wrote: [BR][BR]And I have yet to hear the pilots call out their flap settings on the radio frequency, or their airspeed at the time the flaps are deployed. Are your eyes [STRONG]that[/STRONG] good that you can see the flaps move when in trail of a SWA jet?[BR]----------------[BR][/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]No KC, they don't call those things out. the ATSB determined it after the fact. My point is your "there..." line is silly if you for once believe that MOST pilots are a little more professional than to pull that stunt, and when a few do, it doesn't help matters to have apologist for it.[BR][BR][BR]----------------[BR][BR]I thought the ATSB was only there for the loans. Little did I know that they are there for my safety. Minor slip up there...I know you MEANT to say [STRONG]NTSB[/STRONG]. But I won't ride you too hard on that...after all, there but for the Grace of God go I... Bottom line, one captain does not implicate the entire pilot ranks at an airline. No apoligist here...just one who wonders why the actions of one affect them all in your eyes. [/BLOCKQUOTE]

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 6:00:59 PM KCFlyer wrote:

And I have yet to hear the pilots call out their flap settings on the radio frequency, or their airspeed at the time the flaps are deployed. Are your eyes [STRONG]that[/STRONG] good that you can see the flaps move when in trail of a SWA jet?
----------------
[/blockquote]

No KC, they don't call those things out. the NTSB determined it after the fact. My point is your "there..." line is silly if you for once believe that MOST pilots are a little more professional than to pull that stunt, and when a few do, it doesn't help matters to have apologist for it.

 

[KCFlyer]

[BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/8/2003 4:48:33 PM Busdrvr wrote: [BR][BR]But Speedy, since you were an EP will you help me explain to KC that there is NEVER a good reason to overspeed each and every flap setting from 1 to 40 and cross the numbers 40 knots hot? He thinks that kind of thing happens by "accident" ----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE][BR][BR]Gee busdriver...in almost a [STRONG]million[/STRONG] flights operated, [STRONG]one [/STRONG]captain overshot a runway, so that implicates [STRONG]all[/STRONG] Southwest pilots. I pretty much define "accident" as something that occurs one time in a million (over the course of a year). I certainly don't think it reflects every Southwest pilot. Indeed, that captain no longer flies for Southwest.[BR][BR]Being an avid plane watcher, I notice that UAL jets cross the threshold at MCI at just about the same speed as the Southwest jets. You might want to tell those boys on that route to slow things down a bit. And I have yet to hear the pilots call out their flap settings on the radio frequency, or their airspeed at the time the flaps are deployed. Are your eyes [STRONG]that[/STRONG] good that you can see the flaps move when in trail of a SWA jet?

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/8/2003 6:12:14 PM UnitedChicago wrote:

Totally not my area...but are the UA planes 737s? Because I know at one point the FAA urged flying the 737s faster on approach (obviously within acceptable speeds) to increase control surface response in case of an unexpected upset. All of course related to the lost UA and U 737s.

My two cents.
----------------
[/blockquote]

I think all operators of the 737 fly them fast at the non-landing flap speeds. as the AOA goes up (deck angle, level altitude pitch angle), the rudder becomes more effective and the ailerons less effective (swept wing stalls from the outside in). at lower AOA's (for simplicity sake, higher speeds) the ailerons are more effective than the rudder, so if there was an uncommanded "rudder hardover" the jet would still be flyable (at least in theory...)

 

[KCFlyer]

Busdriver - good recovery...but remember, there's no "edit" button on final to cover those little slips.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 1/8/2003 8:27:39 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Busdriver - good recovery...but remember, there's no "edit" button on final to cover those little slips.
----------------
[/blockquote]


Which is why there are TWO of us! ATSB, NTSB, dealing with either sucks!