United Airlines Posts $1.3 Billion Loss

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/9/2003 9:31:33 AM Busdrvr wrote:

Not above market rates?! were you the ONLY qualified applicant? No?! then you are above market rates.

No, I was the most qualified applicant. And the pay rate was competitive to the rest of the market for a similar position in another company. Maybe a little less, but the offset was the working conditions.

As for Valudeath, why do you think they bought Airtran? They wanted those nice sleek 737-200s to augment the fleet? They thought "citrus" was a really cool callsign? They DID NOT buy Airtran to change the name. You can do that without having to buy a whole other company (just ask the guys at all american, alegheny, usair, usairways.)

I guess I'll tend to believe my airline hero, Herb Kelleher, who said that had something similar happened at SWA at the same point in it's history, they would not have been able to survive. Sometimes you really do have to take additional steps.

They bought Airtran because they needed a new POI. at an airline the POI is basically GOD. Some are VERY liberal (SWA's allows someone other than the flight crew to do the walkarounds and allows handflown CAT III approaches, both unheard of at other major airlines), some are not.

You know, as pompous and arrogant as many airline pilots are, I still kind of get a warm fuzzy knowing that the pilot has primary control of my aircraft - even in a CAT III approach. Since I work with computers on a daily basis, I know that they are not perfect either. And if the requirement of the other majors is that the autopilot must be flying the CATIII approaches, shouldn't the Avionics mechanics be paid more than a pilot, since it's primarily their "skills" that are bringing the aircraft to a safe landing?

Following the everglades incident (captained by an EAL scab), the POI at Valudeath refused to allow them to grow until he was satified that they would be able to do it safely. this seemed to be a long time off considering the age and mechanical condition of the core DC-9 fleet (some jets had long been retired by DAL AND an airline in TURKEY). so what did they do? they found a POI that would turn his head and allow unfettered growth, AND BOUGHT HIM. Unfortunately they had to also buy Airtran (a GREAT little company at the time) and it's jet's (now retired). I'm sure knowing that at least one FAA inspector (thier OWN POI) thought they were dangerous gives you a warm fuzzy when you put 18 of your loved ones in thier hands, but hey, you saved enough to pay for parking right?

Actually, we were flown in spanking new Boeing 717 aircraft. Really nice, and they didn't recirculate cabin air - it's the first time I didn't come down with cold symptoms after flying in an airliner. You should try them sometime.

I guess that the one FAA inspector thought they were dangerous 6 to 7 years ago. You don't think things change? Why if that's the case, why did United go from pretty abysmal in the 1960's and 1970's to pretty admirable in a span of about 6 to 7 years? How much longer were the foolish public supposed to wait before we blessed United as safe enough to warrant our business? Weren't many of United's training policies changed as a result of some of their past problems? So AirTran is stuck in the mid 1990's? Please - give me a break.

And yes, I flew them with confidence, just as I board United, American, USAirways, Southwest, Northwest, Continental and most any other airline that I have flown. And I saved more than enough for parking.

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[Busdrvr]

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On 5/9/2003 1023 AM KCFlyer wrote:


"You know, as pompous and arrogant as many airline pilots are, I still kind of get a warm fuzzy knowing that the pilot has primary control of my aircraft - even in a CAT III approach. Since I work with computers on a daily basis, I know that they are not perfect either. And if the requirement of the other majors is that the autopilot must be flying the CATIII approaches, shouldn't the Avionics mechanics be paid more than a pilot, since it's primarily their "skills" that are bringing the aircraft to a safe landing?"


Another staement that shows how truely blissful it must be for you in the back of the jet. You would REALLY rather have the pilot handfly a CAT III approach?! UNBELIEVABLE!! Having flown several (watched several) CAT III's as well as handflown many CAT II's in multiseat AC and CAT I's to similar minimums in a single seat AC, I'd have to see you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. In actuality TWO autopilots fly the approach. If ONE hicups, you go AROUND. When you need to know the answer of a complex math problem, do you use a calculator? And AC avionics don't run on Windows. The ability to WATCH the jet fly ALL THE WAY TO TOUCHDOWN allows BOTH pilots to monitor EVERYTHING. Handflying leads to target fixation, channelized attention and can also lead to disasterous visual illusions. There has NEVER been an A320 lost due to avionics failure, however there have been a few lost in the LANDING phase to TARGET FIXATION/CHANNELIZED ATTENTION and VISUAL ILLUSIONS. Some in pretty darn good VMC conditions. But you've got that figured out, what with all that flying you do in the BACK of the plane. As for what the Mech should be paid, I DON'T CARE IF HE'S PAID 1 MILL A YEAR. I know what I'M worth, he fights for what HE'S worth. The two are NOT exclusive, and I don't begrudge ANY LICENSED AMT for his salary. I think they SHOULD make more.


"Weren't many of United's training policies changed as a result of some of their past problems? So AirTran is stuck in the mid 1990's? Please - give me a break."

Actually, Valudeath had jets still catching on fire YEARS later, and I bet your closet is still full of cloths you owned in the mid 90's. The diff is UAL is a LEADER in pilot training (Air Force ONE Crews) and CRM/CLR (we invented it), and we MADE changes from 30-40 years ago while Leonard is still CEO at Valudeath



Ignorance is Bliss
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[KCFlyer]

Actually, Valudeath had jets still catching on fire YEARS later, and I bet your closet is still full of cloths you owned in the mid 90''s. The diff is UAL is a LEADER in pilot training (Air Force ONE Crews) and CRM/CLR (we invented it), and we MADE changes from 30-40 years ago while Leonard is still CEO at Valudeath

Yep, you "invented" CRM after a copilot didn''t speak up as a pilot ran a DC8 out of gas because the gear wasn''t down. FWIW, I looked up NTSB "incidents" for Airtran/Valuejet and United since 1996. The results might suprise even you.

As far as "smoke in the cockpit" - I see a number of airlines (most notably Delta) with a lot of "smoke in the cockpit" reports. Must be something about ATL. Grasp at those straws Bus...Airtrans has got a good product and a lot of people are buying it.

Finally, remind yourself as you grasp at straws that when it comes to smoke in the cockpit...well, just read my signature.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/11/2003 11:55:56 PM Busdrvr wrote:

As for what the Mech should be paid, I DON''T CARE IF HE''S PAID 1 MILL A YEAR. I know what I''M worth, he fights for what HE''S worth. The two are NOT exclusive, and I don''t begrudge ANY LICENSED AMT for his salary. I think they SHOULD make more.

If anything Bus, my comment was very "pro" AMT. Discussions on this board and others have sometimes been pretty tense between pilots and AMT''s. Pilots are paid for their skill, yet you cite an example where it''s the AMT''s skill in the most sensitive portion of the flight in the worst of conditions that is responsible for the safe landing. The pilots are merely along for the ride and to hit the TOGA button should the situation warrant. All I am saying is that if that is the case, that a working autopilot becomes the primary system for a safe landing, then the AMT should be paid more than the pilot who is just along for the ride.

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[KCFlyer]

Oh my goodness bus...just read in today''s paper how lucky the crew of UAL 33 was to have the electronic equipment in the cargo hold blow up at the gate instead of inflight. I guess that equipment knew not to mess with the pros from Dover by exploding and catching fire in midair.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 612 AM KCFlyer wrote:

"Yep, you "invented" CRM after a copilot didn''t speak up as a pilot ran a DC8 out of gas because the gear wasn''t down.    FWIW, I looked up NTSB "incidents" for Airtran/Valuejet and United since 1996.  The results might suprise even you. "

Your statement shows either extreme blissfulness, or that your pupose on the UALs boards is just to bash the good folks at UAL. Yep, UAL invented CRM after the Portland incident, and since then has had an OUTSTANDING training and cockpit crew record. Yet just a few years ago, your pals at SWA ran a perfectly good jet off the end of the Runway at BUR (the details of which are especially frightening to those of us who aren''t so Blissful), while the co-pilot pretended to be Helen Keller, yet you think that''s just dandy. Did you correct the rate of incidents for RPM''s flown? Didn''t think so.


"As far as "smoke in the cockpit" - I see a number of airlines (most notably Delta) with a lot of "smoke in the cockpit" reports.  Must be something about ATL.    Grasp at those straws Bus...Airtrans has got a good product and a lot of people are buying it. "

How many RPM''s does DAL fly per year? no wonder you chose the County Gov career route.

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IGNORANCE IS BLISS!!!!

BTW, don''t you have a real job you should be doing? Oh yeah forgot, "County" job

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 8:24:03 AM KCFlyer wrote:


Oh my goodness bus...just read in today''s paper how lucky the crew of UAL 33 was to have the electronic equipment in the cargo hold blow up at the gate instead of inflight.  I guess that equipment knew not to mess with the pros from Dover by exploding and catching fire in midair. 

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Actually, had it happened in flight, it would not have been bad enough to cause significant damage to the jet.

Ignorance is Bliss

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 646 AM KCFlyer wrote:


If anything Bus, my comment was very "pro" AMT.   Discussions on this board and others have sometimes been pretty tense between pilots and AMT''s.  Pilots are paid for their skill, yet you cite an example where it''s the AMT''s skill in the most sensitive portion of the flight in the worst of conditions that is responsible for the safe landing.  The pilots are merely along for the ride and to hit the TOGA button should the situation warrant.  All I am saying is that if that is the case, that a working autopilot becomes the primary system for a safe landing, then the AMT should be paid more than the pilot who is just along for the ride. 

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No, if anything, your post was a feeble attempt to deflect the subject to a totally unrelated area since your point proved to be excedingly Blissful. FYI, I don''t think merely pressing the "TOGA" "button" would be the only appropriate action if the autopilots were failing during landing. As far as the AMT''s "Skills" argument, thats like saying the only rason your caculator works is the "skills" of the guy who assembled it.

Ignorance is Bliss.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/12/2003 9:15:08 AM Busdrvr wrote:

Your statement shows either extreme blissfulness, or that your pupose on the UALs boards is just to bash the good folks at UAL

No bus...my points not to bash the good people at UAL...just you. It's also "equal time" for your bashing of the good people at Airtran and Southwest.

How many RPM's does DAL fly per year? no wonder you chose the County Gov career route.

Oh, so more miles flown equates to less severe smoke in the cockpit incidents?

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IGNORANCE IS BLISS!!!!

BTW, don't you have a real job you should be doing? Oh yeah forgot, "County" job

If it makes you feel better to bash me, help yourself.
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[KCFlyer]

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On 5/12/2003 11:36:48 AM Busdrvr wrote:

as to the "county Government" thing. You are the one that thinks we are underworked and overpaid. Yet today, you prob make more a year than a AMR 767 F/O (the 44 YO ex-navy fighter pilot) and it seems your biggest work responsibility is posting on web boards about airlines. Good thing they don''t pay gov employees based on productivity.
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Would you care to point to ANY post of mine on ANY board where I said that ANY airline employee was underworked or overpaid? Just one?

Rest easy - it''s lunchtime.

Ignorance is Bliss


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[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 10:25:05 AM KCFlyer wrote:

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On 5/12/2003 9:15:08 AM Busdrvr wrote:

Your statement shows either extreme blissfulness, or that your pupose on the UALs boards is just to bash the good folks at UAL

No bus...my points not to bash the good people at UAL...just you. It's also "equal time" for your bashing of the good people at Airtran and Southwest. "




I have NEVER bashed the good folks at SWA. My comments to SWA usually revolve around my belief that they damage the industry by relying on Stock options for much of their compensation (game theory, you wouldn't understand) and they're less than candid reporting of operational statistics. SWA has some of the best pilots and mechs in the industry. I think, and there is a good bit of evidence to support it, that level of competance is NOT the same at Valudeath. but with all your time in the back of the jet, I'm sure you have a better understanding of who the respective airlines hire and their level of competance. Pretty blissful. As for the 747-400 at SFO. The jet lost an engine AT V1 and AT MTOW. It is not a pretty picture if everything is DONE PERFECTLY. It was not done perfectly. The result? UAL made DRASTIC changes to training and currency for widebody F/O's. It was a proficiency issue, not a FLIGHT DISCIPLINE PROBLEM (like burbank). You can train away proficiency problems.





"How many RPM's does DAL fly per year? no wonder you chose the County Gov career route.

Oh, so more miles flown equates to less severe smoke in the cockpit incidents? "


Actually it shouldn't. I will try to explain it, but please read slowly. If you FLY significantly more sorties in a given year, then statistically, you SHOULD have more incidents. So to oversimplify, If airline A flew two flights, and both caught on fire, and airline B flew 10,000 and had three fires, which airline is safer? The way I read your post, you'd say A since they only had two fires, and I'd sit here and shake my head at your blissfulness.

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IGNORANCE IS BLISS!!!!

BTW, don't you have a real job you should be doing? Oh yeah forgot, "County" job

If it makes you feel better to bash me, help yourself.
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as to the "county Government" thing. You are the one that thinks we are underworked and overpaid. Yet today, you prob make more a year than a AMR 767 F/O (the 44 YO ex-navy fighter pilot) and it seems your biggest work responsibility is posting on web boards about airlines. Good thing they don't pay gov employees based on productivity.
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Ignorance is Bliss

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 5/12/2003 12:28:09 PM KCFlyer wrote:


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Would you care to point to ANY post of mine on ANY board where I said that ANY airline employee was underworked or overpaid?  Just one?

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you do by implication. You are one of those folks that thinks you have some god given right to travel the country coast to coast for $99. If you think mainline fares are two high while we bleed cash, then where do YOU think cost should be cut (WE can''t just raise taxes). If you think Airlines SHOULD farm out heavy MX to cheap outside sources who pay UNSKILLED laborers much less to perform tasks that should be done by AMT''s, all to save a few bucks, THEN YOU THINK WE MAKE TOO MUCH!!!

Ignorance is Bliss

 

[Busdrvr]

Wow!!! From 6:14 to 12:18 that''s some lunch time (UAL mechanics now get 15 minutes unpaid lunch time). I needs me a Gubment job

Ignorance is Bliss

 

[spanky]

Actually, Busdwvr, Mr. KC probably is use to having low fares with great service due to the number one carrier in MCI being Southwest Airlines. Fair prices, good dependable service, and loyalty to its costomers. You won''t see ticket prices jacked up at the first opportunity. Maybe UAL''s "sickout" from the summer of 2000 is having a bigger impact than you thought? Management obviously had a huge impact on UAL''s current situation, but labor''s past actions make it difficult for customers to have any trust. In other words, YES, KCFlyer can have his $99 fare. And YES, the airline offering that fare can be profitable. WN has been doing it even in the worst downturn in the history of commercial aviation.

 

[KCFlyer]

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On 5/12/2003 1:40:01 PM Busdrvr wrote:

you do by implication. You are one of those folks that thinks you have some god given right to travel the country coast to coast for $99.

You know, you couldn’t be more wrong bussie…I don’t think I have a god given right to fly coast to coast for $99. I just don’t believe that the airlines have a god given right to put so damn many restrictions on a ticket…even a ticket that makes you money…with change fees and penalties. Last Christmas, my wife wanted to fly to San Diego to see her alma mater play in the Holiday bowl. Best I could do on Southwest was full walkup fare on the way out, and a “restricted†fare on the way back. Cost me about $400 for the trip (notice that this is about $301 more than the $99 you cite, and it was only from the middle of the country, not the east coast). I figured that absolute WORST case, if she couldn’t go, we’d get a FULL refund of the outbound fare ($199 plus taxes) and we could use the FULL amount of the return fare on another ticket. THAT is called value, and yes, I do expect some of that for my travel dollar. Tell me how much I would have to pay on United to provide me that kind of value (zero out of pocket expense for changes). Checking the UAL website, the best I can find is $1,432. That’s a tad too rich for my blood. I flew 18 of us to Tampa on Airtran for $359 per person. Again, that’s about $260 over the $99 you claim that I feel I have a god given right to expect. I imagine that they made money on that fare. I bet UAL could do it, too, except they offer a $99 deal and a $1,200 deal to compensate for the losses. Nope…I won’t pay $1,200 for that trip. You can’t make a good argument on the service differences I would receive, so instead you play the “safety cardâ€, even though Airtran and UAL both have an admirable safety record over the past 5 years.


If you think mainline fares are two high while we bleed cash, then where do YOU think cost should be cut (WE can''t just raise taxes).

While you think that I claim that airline employees are overpaid because you’re bleeding cash, if you’d actually read many of my posts you’d find that I am far more critical of the flawed “revenue management’ model than I am of airline employees wages. Most of the airlines could cut labor costs to zero and still not make money based on their revenue management models. On the other hand, I would imagine that if an airline actually TRIED to “value price†and had the cajones to stick with it and not fall for some ultra super saver deal offered by a competitor, they wouldn’t have had to ask labor for nearly as much in concessions. I mentioned in another thread that my sister works in telecom in Dallas. Next trip to Dallas, take a tour of what’s left of the “telecom corridorâ€. Those companies didn’t used to bat an eye at paying some rape and pillage airfare in the past. The employees didn’t care because all was right with the world. Then the telecom sector tanked and the lucky few that survived after watching 60% of their coworkers hit the street are now VERY aware of the costs involved in travel. The employee (it’s not coming out of their pocket) is now pretty upset that it costs $1,200 to go from Dallas to St. Louis to visit a client. Nevermind their “elite†status – they’d rather have a job than spend outrageous amounts to fly an hour and 15 minutes.

If you think Airlines SHOULD farm out heavy MX to cheap outside sources who pay UNSKILLED laborers much less to perform tasks that should be done by AMT''s, all to save a few bucks

Where did I say that? Southwest does, and their planes seem to be in pretty good shape.

, THEN YOU THINK WE MAKE TOO MUCH!!!

Again, I’ve never said that. What I HAVE done is question the logic of someone who would rather see their employer go into bankruptcy court than do something to try and avoid that trip….that “full pay til the last day†battle cry. Sorry if my questioning why no pay (in the form of no company) is better than a pay cut is construed as a declaration that you are overpaid.
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