Atsb Denies Loan

[local 12 proud]

While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.

By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

We don't except for the fact that most labor regs that relate to represented employees at airlines are based upon the Railway Labor Act. No, it does not make any sense, but that's the way it is.

LAME! That's the way it is!

No, that is the way it was, it ain't the 40's it ain't the 30's, airline workers and railroad workers do not need any extra-ordinary protection over and above any other union worker in America. And I ask you to prove me wrong!

Unions always play by the rules, just as long as they get to write the rules!

 

[mistified]

Waaa! Them eeeevil Republicans!

We need protectionism! We need the government to run the airlines (er, my airline)!

Get Michael Moore to make a movie for you.


BTW, why the hell do we need the Railway Labor Act? It ain't 1934, and the economy of the nation won't fall apart if Amtrack or United goes out of business.

Mr.
HPearlyretireeIgotmineoldfart

Shields down big fella.

I never said they were evil.

And I don't think we need the RLA.

But yes they do have a plan>

 

[HPearlyretiree]

BS, you were looking for a scapegoat, and rather than thinking logically, you decided to rip on the Republicans.

Waaaaaaaa!


I need protection!


Be a man, vote Republican.


BTW, I ain't an old fart, I'm 40 and making much more $$ outside the airline industry!

 

[mistified]

The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.

Actually its the people in the factory who make the parts that the mechanics use to make the airplane work, who really hold our fate in their hands.
Yeah that's the ticket!

I have heard of Penis envy. But please give me a break.

 

[mistified]

BS, you were looking for a scapegoat, and rather than thinking logically, you decided to rip on the Republicans.

Waaaaaaaa!


I need protection!


Be a man, vote Republican.


BTW, I ain't an old fart, I'm 40 and making much more $$ outside the airline industry!

BS what?
I think your being a little over sensative aren't you?
BTW I do vote republican. Yes I can think outside the box once in a while.


"Be a man and vote republican? "Is that blanket statement thinking logically?

I am glad your making lots of money outside the airline industry. I am truly impressed.

 

[JetClipper]

That said, United can indeed come out of this a winner. However, it won't be the United that we have come to love and/or hate -- rather, I envision United morphing into a c. 400-plane (eliminating the 737s, 762s and roughly half of the 777s), 55-60,000 employee outfit with 3 large hubs (ORD, DEN, SFO), a focus city (LAX), and VERY limited IAD O&D transcon/TATL offerings. In essence, I see United becoming a midsize carrier that competes (and WINS!) on what it does best versus trying to be all things to all people and getting nowhere but closer to the graveyard.

That's pretty much what I see happening (or, at least, should happen) as well.

 

[Boeingguy]

For years the standard mantra was that pay rates have little to do with a company's health and that pay concessions do nothing more than reduce pay without having any significant impact on reviving moribund companies.

Now, as United tries desperately to get the ATSB to reconsider its denied application for loan guarantees, MEC Chairman Steve Dereby is telling everyone who will listen that the pay concessions that the UAL pilots have taken have been extremely effective in turning around UAL's fortunes. In fact he wants the pilots to get the lion's share of the credit for the turnaround specifically because of how effectively their paycuts have helped United. Obviously this isn't what Delta pilots want to hear from a fellow MEC chairman and his words would have been sacrilege just a couple of years ago. Nevertheless, it seems that the Delta pilots are beginning to reconsider.

 

[Fly]

For the smart a$$e$ wanting to know where I was.....I was in Hong Kong working. Tomorrow I'm off to Honolulu, but I'll be back on Tuesday. From now on I'll be sure to leave my schedule so you won't have to worry about me. During July I'll be flying to Munich and Belgium.....if you need the days, don't hesitate to ask. Geez.

As for the ATSB decision, I was, obviously, saddened but I believe it's the insiders dance we are about to witness. IMHO, this has been set up for the unions to accept another GIGANTIC pay and work rule cut....as in, we'll give you the loan when your employees Bend Over and take it again. I think the pensions are history too!

Anyways, thats my story..........

ff: Oh, on another subject.....Did any of you know that there was a group called the International Youth Exchange? It's an exchange program for employees of airlines kids. I just found out and already they set up my son to go to Germany in a couple of weeks. PM me if you want information for your child. I know they are looking for a boy around 21 years old to go to Paris this summer. ff:

 

[JungleClone]

The problem isn't Glenn Tilton. He has done a very good job helping turn things around given the terrible hand he inherited. However, I still FIRMLY believe that one of his biggest achilles heels lies in some of the other senior mgmt around him, namely Hacker and Brace. The fact that Doug Hacker is EVP of Strategy is a joke. It's tough to even say that out loud without bursting into laughter. He did a horrible job as CFO and was kicked to the curb for it (i.e. moved over to E Commerce and the failed Avolar debacle). So how did he manage to get rewarded for those failures? Same with Brace. While there are many stellar, hard-working, bright folks working in Finance, the fact remains that Jake Brace has presided over the complete failure of United's balance sheet and financial position. You'd think at some point he'd have to be accountable for that. I honestly don't know what Tilton sees in those two because they have absolutely ZERO respect and credibility from the workforce. Glenn needs to listen more to respected professionals like Pete McDonald. But I think Glenn has done a very good job in a short amount of time.

The question now becomes: if we fail in this last ditch attempt to shore up our sagging ATSB application, what happens next? Well, one thing is fairly obvious. It won't mean liquidation of United Airlines. But it will mean more painful decisions for the company. Will pensions be terminated? Entirely possible. Will more pay/benefit cuts take place? Very likely. Will more furloughs happen? Very likely. Will routes/planes get cut? Probably. I think overall, the level to which United would further shrink would be determined by how much more we can lower our costs relative to our competitors. As it stands now, our costs are about the best in class amongst legacy airlines. We all know how worred our competitors are of us getting the loan guarantee. Of course they're worried. We've lowered costs and overhead the hard way. And we've improved, albeit not quickly enough. Our competitors are unable to match our level of restructuring without resorting to the painful track of their own Ch. 11 filing. So of course they've lobbied against us. They're own day of reckoning will eventually arrive. And hopefully by that time, we'll be ready to trample on their throats as the ink flows from red to black!

So, while many may scream and yell over this, the ATSB may in fact be doing us a favor. I don't think our costs are yet low enough to return to sustained profitability upon emergence from Ch. 11. We don't want to end up in the same situation as US Airways after they emerged from Ch. 11. Yes, we've lowered our costs, but we simply must reduce them further. How we do that is anybody's guess. I wish to God it didn't have to happen, but I think reality tells us it does.

 

[avek00]

Some thoughts:

1. Like him or not, UAL has no choice but to stick with Glenn Tilton for the foreseeable future, provided he is willing to stay. Recall that he was the best UAL could come up with back when it was a SOLVENT company; the odds of the company attracting a decent leader while mired in a difficult and contentious BK are slim to none.

2. There's no question that UA will have to sacrifice even more. This will be accomplished not only through employee wage cutbacks and pension eliminations, but also by finally dealing with the white elephants of the airline, such as the flailing IAD hub. We laughed at I-Air, but let's face it - against a single-cabin airline that doesn't even fly to Canada, United has been forced to give away premium ROUND THE WORLD tickets in order to retain IAD customers. However, I do believe that a midsize UAL (larger than NW but smaller than DL) would be well positioned for long-term financial success.

 

[Borescope]

Senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest.

You have to compare Apples to Apples if you do a wage comparison. JB's biggest aircraft and A-320, WN's biggest Aircraft a 737-700. UA's -----777's and 747's. How do the wages compare?

 

[dogdriver]

for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.

Because we entrust our lives to them, consumers accept the excessive sums paid them, when it's airplane mechanics who really hold our fate in their hands.

Local,

You don't have a clue.