Ual Reaches Agreement To Termiante Pensions

[UAL_TECH]

Where are the unions' response to this news?

[post="264001"][/post]​

PBGC-UAL termination analysis (PDF 22K)

Behind the deal How did this happen? While bankruptcy grants companies incredible opportunity to change union contracts, the events of last Friday illustrate yet another danger to employees. The agreement between United and the PBGC appears to be legal per the Employment Retirement Income Security Act, or ERISA.

One must be aware that consent for this deal came from the highest levels of government. As Tilton noted in his EYE-ON-UA column, the board of directors of the PBGC is “chaired by the U.S. Secretary of Labor, and includes the Secretaries of Treasury and of Commerce.â€￾ These Secretaries are appointed and serve at the pleasure of the current administration in Washington.

During the last several weeks, a delegation of the AMFA Negotiating Committee met with senior management as it sought information to craft a possible replacement plan. In the last two weeks, the full committee has met with UAL representatives in an effort to reach a consensual resolution to the 1113 process. All during this time, the Company was secretly dealing with the PBGC to terminate our pension and did nothing to mitigate our damages. It agreed to the March 11, 2005 termination date, knowing full well the economic damage it would do to us. Now the Company expects us to quickly cooperate on all other contract issues and ratify some kind of agreement.

United’s pension terminations sets in motion a trend that will spread throughout the airline industry. All carriers that maintain defined benefit plans are now under pressure to follow UAL in an unrelenting “race to the bottom.â€￾ We fear that the current leaders of this once great company may unwittingly sow the seeds of its demise as it inflicts permanent financial damage to the very people who built one of the finest airlines in the world.

JMHO, it's going to get ugly(er)!!!

B) UT

 

[Busdrvr]

PBGC-UAL termination analysis (PDF 22K)
JMHO, it's going to get ugly(er)!!!

B) UT

[post="265151"][/post]​

While I'm not a fan of pension termination, this "race to the bottom" thing strikes a nerve. If by terminating DB pensions and replacing them with DC's means UAL is leading a race to the bottom, then isn't SWA, FRNT, AAI, and Blu already past the finish line and in the locker room? :blink:

 

[ualdriver]

I was thinking the same thing. There's a reason why Glen is going down this path. It's not Mr. Tilton wanting to screw everyone out of their pension, it's Mr. Tilton looking at our low cost competition that was kicking our ass and overlapping around 80% of our route structure (the highest in the industry when we entered bankruptcy) and seeing that the labor bar has been set pretty low over at the JetBlue's, Airtran's, Frontier's, etc., of the world. Low hourly wages, no defined benefit plans, few work rules, etc., and we HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE. It's either terminate and replace these defined benefit plans (among other things), or the company dies. It's pretty simple, and it's not Tilton's fault, although it's fun for union leadership and employees to use him as an excuse.

 

[aafsc]

I was thinking the same thing. There's a reason why Glen is going down this path. It's not Mr. Tilton wanting to screw everyone out of their pension, it's Mr. Tilton looking at our low cost competition that was kicking our ass and overlapping around 80% of our route structure (the highest in the industry when we entered bankruptcy) and seeing that the labor bar has been set pretty low over at the JetBlue's, Airtran's, Frontier's, etc., of the world. Low hourly wages, no defined benefit plans, few work rules, etc., and we HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE. It's either terminate and replace these defined benefit plans (among other things), or the company dies. It's pretty simple, and it's not Tilton's fault, although it's fun for union leadership and employees to use him as an excuse.

[post="265193"][/post]​

Why did you all not think this way back in 2000? Airtran, Jetblue, Southwest, and Frontier were all here back then. Goodwin capitulated and when he said UA could perish he was removed. But now Tilton is bringing the compensation to Jetblue levels and you agree with him.

 

[Fly]

AAFSC, it's obvious your motives....you are scared......it's ok....you'll survive. Why did AA approve the GIANT paycuts (industry LEADING paycuts!!!)? Because they saw UAL go into BK 4 months earlier and all the employees ran scared. I understand that. If situations had been different, UAL would have GLADLY been on the other side....trust me.

FYI - Although this board seems filled with employees from all different airlines, I have yet to meet even ONE employee who has even heard of it. This is a very small cross section of people.

 

[aafsc]

AAFSC, it's obvious your motives....you are scared......it's ok....you'll survive. Why did AA approve the GIANT paycuts (industry LEADING paycuts!!!)? Because they saw UAL go into BK 4 months earlier and all the employees ran scared. I understand that. If situations had been different, UAL would have GLADLY been on the other side....trust me.

FYI - Although this board seems filled with employees from all different airlines, I have yet to meet even ONE employee who has even heard of it. This is a very small cross section of people.

[post="265271"][/post]​

Fly, you could not be more wrong. I am not scared, I'm prepared. AA could die tomorrow and it would not affect me that much.I learned A LOT from my EAL days. As far as industry leading pay cuts at AA, it depends on what groups you are talking about. Right now, I would say US is the leader in industry leading paycuts. All groups except the pilots at AA had industry leading contracts among the 6 legacies. The AA pilots could have had the UA and DL pay rates but turned down that offer because of another contractual item that they disagreed with. For my group (ramp) we ratified our industry leading contract shortly after the 9/11 attacks. In terms of hourly rates, I basically lost the wage raise I gained from that contract, so I am now making hourly what I was before the attacks. But I have lost some holidays, holiday pay (most I can get is time and a half),1 week of vacation, and pay slightly more for medical. But I still have my pension and retiree health care. Had AA went into bankruptcy, AA management would have went for the jugular, like US did and like UA is doing now. I think UA will survive. Why? To pressure all the others. It is no secret that the Bush administration and republicans in general and Secretary of the treasury , John Snow,
in particular, are against traditional pension plans (Even though Snow purportedly has one from CSX). What better way to get rid of the pensions (and kill the employees ESOP) through bankruptcy. The cooperation between UAL and the PBGC regarding the stock deal makes me wonder. It appears that UA is following in the exact footsteps as U. Deep paycuts, more payments for less medical coverage, outsource just about everything, kill the pensions, and pay for retiree healthcare. And DL, CO, and NW will follow. AA will also follow but I think AA will be the last turd down the toilet.

 

[UAL_TECH]

While I'm not a fan of pension termination, this "race to the bottom" thing strikes a nerve. If by terminating DB pensions and replacing them with DC's means UAL is leading a race to the bottom, then isn't SWA, FRNT, AAI, and Blu already past the finish line and in the locker room? :blink:

[post="265179"][/post]​

You guys suck!!!

You have already thrown your mentors under the bus (pun?) and have negotiated a $500 Mill cushion for ‘ACTIVE PILOTS’ (yourselves - along with other perks) and then have the audacity to blame our competition!!!

Where were you a$$holes in 2000?
Choking the chicken?

You have(had) a membership that understands and respects the important mix of the epoxy that have held 'US' together but they are gone and now we have the 'KnowItAll' breed.

'This is a new age' Bull#### has been around for many years.

:down: UT

 

[UAL_TECH]

I was thinking the same thing. There's a reason why Glen is going down this path. It's not Mr. Tilton wanting to screw everyone out of their pension, it's Mr. Tilton looking at our low cost competition that was kicking our ass and overlapping around 80% of our route structure (the highest in the industry when we entered bankruptcy) and seeing that the labor bar has been set pretty low over at the JetBlue's, Airtran's, Frontier's, etc., of the world. Low hourly wages, no defined benefit plans, few work rules, etc., and we HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE. It's either terminate and replace these defined benefit plans (among other things), or the company dies. It's pretty simple, and it's not Tilton's fault, although it's fun for union leadership and employees to use him as an excuse.

[post="265193"][/post]​

You Suck too!!!

JMHO,
B) UT

 

[767jetz]

You Suck too!!!

JMHO,
B) UT

[post="265354"][/post]​

Don't hold back man. Tell us how you really feel!

 

[Fly]

Dang....and I thought my job sucked!

 

[UAL_TECH]

Fly, you could not be more wrong. I am not scared, I'm prepared. AA could die tomorrow and it would not affect me that much.I learned A LOT from my EAL days. As far as industry leading pay cuts at AA, it depends on what groups you are talking about. Right now, I would say US is the leader in industry leading paycuts. All groups except the pilots at AA had industry leading contracts among the 6 legacies. The AA pilots could have had the UA and DL pay rates but turned down that offer because of another contractual item that they disagreed with. For my group (ramp) we ratified our industry leading contract shortly after the 9/11 attacks. In terms of hourly rates, I basically lost the wage raise I gained from that contract, so I am now making hourly what I was before the attacks. But I have lost some holidays, holiday pay (most I can get is time and a half),1 week of vacation, and pay slightly more for medical. But I still have my pension and retiree health care. Had AA went into bankruptcy, AA management would have went for the jugular, like US did and like UA is doing now. I think UA will survive. Why? To pressure all the others. It is no secret that the Bush administration and republicans in general and Secretary of the treasury , John Snow,
in particular, are against traditional pension plans (Even though Snow purportedly has one from CSX). What better way to get rid of the pensions (and kill the employees ESOP) through bankruptcy. The cooperation between UAL and the PBGC regarding the stock deal makes me wonder. It appears that UA is following in the exact footsteps as U. Deep paycuts, more payments for less medical coverage, outsource just about everything, kill the pensions, and pay for retiree healthcare. And DL, CO, and NW will follow. AA will also follow but I think AA will be the last turd down the toilet.

[post="265295"][/post]​

JMHO,

Don't waste your time speaking to the deaf.

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[casual rat]

I think BK is all about UA getting ALL IT CAN GET....out of 'THE INDUSTRY' as a whole. ALL the other carriers will have to follow suit--for competitive reasons---it's only a matter of time. LCC's set the bar, currently, (allowed to survive during their formative years), now, they have Market Control. This is the most 'naked' scam I've ever seen, to be honest.

 

[UAL_TECH]

I think BK is all about UA getting ALL IT CAN GET....out of 'THE INDUSTRY' as a whole. ALL the other carriers will have to follow suit--for competitive reasons---it's only a matter of time. LCC's set the bar, currently, (allowed to survive during their formative years), now, they have Market Control. This is the most 'naked' scam I've ever seen, to be honest.

[post="265375"][/post]​

Of course it is. UAL LR sees what everyone else in the industry is doing and are mimicking their 'Plan'. Although it might be illegal to pass crib notes back and forth on dealing with how to break up a unionized workforce, they can always pass information from their 'Consultants' which collectively interface with all the airlines. It's not collusion if you hire a middleman.

LCC's have come and gone ever since deregulation because the 'Big Boys' have squashed their efforts by competing with them 'head-to-head' and taking a loss that was covered by the 'main line' profits.

Remember, immediately after the 911 event, one of the 'first' thing we did was to eject the shuttle. Now we have Ted. What's the difference? The shuttle was created (and subsidized by the main line) to keep the LCC's in check. Now we have 'TED' which is a similar product as the shuttle was. Is it helping?

Here is a good informational piece that you should read:

UAL-AMFA Observer Notes

Malik reviewed the context of the pension discussions leading up to the April 22 surprise announcement of UAL/PBGC agreement.  He recounted AMFA discussions conducted on April 7 and 14 with Mr. Kain and others regarding the very issues the Company secretly addressed with the PBGC. While the Company told us that it remained neutral on the issue of the phase-in date, it covertly constructed a deal with the PBGC that fixed our pension termination date at March 11, 2005—a date three days short of another 20% phase-in. According to page 169 of our contract, Malik noted, the Company agreed to “not reduce†our pension.  He then pointedly asked Mr. Kain, “What happened?â€

Mr. Kain ignored Malik’s question.  Instead he turned to Scott Petersen, AMFA legal counsel, and asked if he was in agreement with this line of discussion since the questions included material covered by confidentiality agreements.  Mr. Kain’s challenge to Scott Petersen clearly sought to put AMFA on the defensive and effectively change the topic of discussion away from UAL’s duplicitous behavior.

AMFA attorney expresses committee outrage
Scott accepted Mr. Kain’s challenge.  He heatedly brought the topic back to Malik’s line of discussion.  He reminded Mr. Kain that this committee explicitly and repeatedly raised its concerns regarding commitment, trust and respect. He noted that AMFA has been dealing with the Company in a good faith manner and actively engaging the Company on the pension issue.  Meanwhile, Scott vehemently added, the Company was conducting “secret deals†behind the backs of this committee.  “What explanation do you offer to this committee?  What does this committee report to the members they represent?â€

Now you want this committee to return to the table, Scott continued, and attempt to resolve the 1113 contract issues.  In a raised voice Scott asked, “For what?  So you can reach a deal only to return in a few months and do it all over again?â€

Mr. Kain coolly answered the “For what?†question. He responded that AMFA needed to resolve the contract for the good of the “enterprise.â€

Malik asked Mr. Kain why the pilots received preferential treatment in the PBGC agreement with regard to the termination date.  The agreement, in one short sentence, simply sets the Ground Plan termination date at March 11, 2005.  The Pilot Plan termination date, however, contains a whole paragraph and four sub-clauses dealing with it.  In part the agreement states that the Pilot Plan termination date is a “date that is either mutually agreed by the Parties or judicially determined…†Mr. Kain responded that the pilots had an agreement in place and AMFA did not.  He also added that nothing in the Company’s deal with the PBGC is contrary to any of the labor contracts.

Good Faith?
Not a Frigging Chance!!!

B) UT

 

[goingboeing]

AAFSC, it's obvious your motives....you are scared......it's ok....you'll survive. Why did AA approve the GIANT paycuts (industry LEADING paycuts!!!)? Because they saw UAL go into BK 4 months earlier and all the employees ran scared. I understand that. If situations had been different, UAL would have GLADLY been on the other side....trust me.

FYI - Although this board seems filled with employees from all different airlines, I have yet to meet even ONE employee who has even heard of it. This is a very small cross section of people.

[post="265271"][/post]​

You are correct that the employees at AA were running scared.The TWU helped increase the fear by printing up Vermont Plan papers and passing them out to their membership.
Please remember that 47% of US VOTED AGAINST THE CONCESSIONS!