UA transfers its two DAL (Love Field) gates to Southwest; Is DL out?

[WorldTraveler]

Federal law passed by a majority of Congress and signed by the President in 2006 exempted DAL from a requirement to lease gates on a common-use basis. DAL is excused from eliminating preferential leases unless the government requires all airports nationwide to eliminate preferential leases. So far, the government has not taken that step.

Absent a successful claim that the law is unconstitutional (under what part of the Constitution would one make that claim?), the only remedy for outsiders looking in is the scarce-use provisions of the existing leases.

DAL is the only airport in the country where lawmakers have set down different rules about new entrants.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-109publ352/pdf/PLAW-109publ352.pdf

 
you continue to say that but if that was even halfway true, DL would have been out of DAL a long time ago. WN and DAL know full well that, even if the law is as you say, DL will have absolutely no problem arguing in front of every judge and Congress that WN benefitted from gaining access to airports that were far less concentrated than DAL and provided far more opportunities for WN to buy into if WN wanted to - but WN simply waited too long to get into the nation's top and airports did not want to spend the money to buy those assets other than FL when they realized that they needed to.

DAL IS THE MOST CONCENTRATED LARGE AIRPORT IN THE US

and it is also in the top 25 airports in the US.

WN's luck with legislators will run out if it runs out the only carrier that has shown itself to be a viable competitor to WN and is at DAL.

further, if WN has a prayer of getting anything relaxed regarding DAL, it will have to build a coalition of those who want change and be willing to share the spoils even if WN gets the majority of them.

the problem with lawyers like you is that you have no common sense. We all know the laws.

Life isn't black and white.

WN is run by people who have common sense - even if they are very law savvy.


thank you for acknowledging that ATL is a world class airport, E.

There aren't a whole lot of airports in the US that have single train service from downtown and the top business areas of the city to the airport.

let's be clear, though. DAL is not closing. It will expand.

and I also will bet that its expansion will include AA's return.

there is nothing that AA would like more than to be able to compete against WN from DAL to AA's top markets.

whether anyone at AA really believed that WN was no threat at DAL, the evidence is overwhelming that WN is a success at DAL.

closing the airport isn't going to happen.

AA needs to get its tailfeathers back into DAL and be willing to accept that DL will be there as well - or else continue to allow WN to each AA's lunch unchecked at DAL.

AA doesn't need to reduce a thing at DFW in order to return to DAL. and I doubt very seriously that if push comes to shove that WN would serve DFW.

 

[swamt]

Here's where I completely disagree. Absent consent by the DFW bondholders, DAL ain't getting any larger. Absent consent by AA, DAL ain't getting any larger. Under the concept of judicial review, courts can overturn acts of Congress if the law is in conflict with the Constitution. I've asked, and nobody has articulated any cogent constitutional infirmity with the WARA. It's an evolution of the long-standing restrictions at DAL, in which Congress, WN, AA, plus DFW and Fort Worth and Dallas all played integral roles over the years.

Southwest wanted the ability to fly anywhere from DAL, and they got it. The price was a much smaller airport (in terms of capacity) than the DAL runways can handle. DAL could easily support 64 gates again, like it used to. But the people who loaned billions to build DFW aren't about to let that happen.

Maybe in 10 years or 20 years, the new current restrictions on DAL will be revised. But if anybody is sitting around right now thinking that DAL will have 32 gates by 2018 or 2020, they really should put down the graphic novels and focus on reality instead, and that reality is a 20-gate airport.

Fort Worth and the DFW bondholders don't want to see their airport situation get any closer to the Narita-Haneda situation that plagues Tokyo. DAL's runways could handle 500 daily departures if there were enough gates. DAL gets big enough, DFW's financial viability could be threatened, and those bondholders generally get their way.

I think there's a possibility down the road that DAL gets closed. How? Build a high-speed, cheap , mass transit rail option from the center of Dallas to DFW. Boring machines and a few billion dollars and all of a sudden, DFW ain't out in the middle of nowhere from downtown Dallas. And I'm sure that some NIMBYs who live near DAL would welcome some peace and quiet. Not everyone is cheering the increased air traffic at DAL.

MDW doesn't have any high-rent district neighbors (it's on the South Side of Chicago), but DAL does. The area around DAL isn't the poor part of Dallas.

I agree.  I hope I never misled you that I was saying an expansion of the number of gates would happen right away.  I believe I have said within 10 years for more gates to be fought for, and within 10 years or maybe more for the fight for international.  International may never happen, who knows? But I do believe there will be another challenge for more gates at LF within 10 years.  Your rail example is a good one.  SWA is fighting a possible high speed rail system being talked about now.  I believe the proposed routs are from Dallas to Austin, San Antonio and even Houston.  Not sure where it is now, but read that it is being proposed or at least thought about...

 

[swamt]

 
you continue to say that but if that was even halfway true, DL would have been out of DAL a long time ago. WN and DAL know full well that, even if the law is as you say, DL will have absolutely no problem arguing in front of every judge and Congress that WN benefitted from gaining access to airports that were far less concentrated than DAL and provided far more opportunities for WN to buy into if WN wanted to - but WN simply waited too long to get into the nation's top and airports did not want to spend the money to buy those assets other than FL when they realized that they needed to.

DAL IS THE MOST CONCENTRATED LARGE AIRPORT IN THE US

and it is also in the top 25 airports in the US.

WN's luck with legislators will run out if it runs out the only carrier that has shown itself to be a viable competitor to WN and is at DAL.

further, if WN has a prayer of getting anything relaxed regarding DAL, it will have to build a coalition of those who want change and be willing to share the spoils even if WN gets the majority of them.

the problem with lawyers like you is that you have no common sense. We all know the laws.

Life isn't black and white.

WN is run by people who have common sense - even if they are very law savvy.


thank you for acknowledging that ATL is a world class airport, E.

There aren't a whole lot of airports in the US that have single train service from downtown and the top business areas of the city to the airport.

let's be clear, though. DAL is not closing. It will expand.

and I also will bet that its expansion will include AA's return.

there is nothing that AA would like more than to be able to compete against WN from DAL to AA's top markets.

whether anyone at AA really believed that WN was no threat at DAL, the evidence is overwhelming that WN is a success at DAL.

closing the airport isn't going to happen.

AA needs to get its tailfeathers back into DAL and be willing to accept that DL will be there as well - or else continue to allow WN to each AA's lunch unchecked at DAL.

AA doesn't need to reduce a thing at DFW in order to return to DAL. and I doubt very seriously that if push comes to shove that WN would serve DFW.

Really?  I'll let E handle this one.  You really need to get a clue...

 

[eolesen]

No thanks. Anyone who thinks a metro area with 132 Waffle Houses is considered world class clearly isn't worth my time.

 

[WorldTraveler]

E doesn't need to handle anything.

this shows precisely why you and WN are out of touch.

.  SWA is fighting a possible high speed rail system being talked about now.  I believe the proposed routs are from Dallas to Austin, San Antonio and even Houston.  Not sure where it is now, but read that it is being proposed or at least thought about...

Texas has talked about high speed rail for years and it still makes sense.. if high speed rail anywhere in the US does... and to be honest with you, I doubt if the cost of construction on a rail project will ever be recovered.

but your response exactly highlights why WN is no friend to the Texas economy but rather interested solely in self-aggrandizement.

If rail makes economic sense for Texas and Texans want it, then it should be built, regardless of what WN or any other private company wants.

WN has pandered to public officials to get what it wants including getting as much of DAL to itself as it can and to the exclusion of everyone else.

If WN doesn't move quickly to expand DAL and be forced to build a coalition of airlines that will mutually benefit from the expansion, then the best thing that could happen is for AA and other carriers to add as much capacity to DFW to eliminate the competitive advantage that WN is gaining.

After AA's analyst conference call, it is apparent that AA's strategy is to at least ensure that it can maintain its current schedule by increasing connecting passengers even if DAL is pulling some local passengers away. For that reason, I support AA.

the more Latin America expansion that AA does from DFW and the more domestic capacity AA and other carriers add from DFW, the faster WN will come to the conclusion that it has to negotiate and expand DAL or WN's advantage will be short lived.

You gotta LUV the free market when it is used to the benefit of all parties.

 

[swamt]

I guess, in your mind everybody is confused.  Like the DOJ, COD, SWA, UAL, Virgin, DFW, DAL, Fort Worth and anyone else who says something negative about Delta...
 
Southwest leasing two Dallas Love Field gates from United
 
And I quote, " Since United however also sub leases some its gate capacity to Delta Air Lines (DL, Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson) for Delta's five daily B717-200 services to Atlanta, Delta's operations at the airport are now also at risk yet again."

 

[topDawg]

and again, that was a proposal that never saw the light of day.

I know what was proposed and what actually happened.

US rightly came to the conclusion that it would make ZERO economic sense to have a split operation at a station as small as it now has at LGA.

and the benefit of consolidating US' operation with AA's at LGA is dependent on someone moving out of the CTB. and realistically likely moves within the CTB. no one has agreed to do that and I expect that DL is not going to move until it gets what it wants which might well include gate access in other locations, perhaps DAL and/or LAX.

DL is in the driver's seat at LGA and they aren't going to give it up, esp. given that other carriers have shown a complete unwillingness to work together for the benefit of multiple parties elsewhere.

no reason why DL should roll over at LGA when other carriers are doing what they are doing elsewhere.

Yeah that is not what you said. 
 

they got more slots at DCA at the time given that DCA is one of the top premier markets..  
 
I still would love to know what kind of deal UA got in order to sublease the 2 gates to UA.  

I have heard UA is getting some EWR slot..... 
 

US gave DL three times as many LGA slots as the DCA slots received. Yes, DCA is a top, valuable market, but DCA slots aren't worth three times as much as LGA slots. When DL divested the slots required by the government for its approval of the slot swap, the DCA slots did not sell for three times the money as the LGA slots. Parker got snookered. Anderson clearly won that round.

And it gets even better: when Parker finally was able to take over AA, the DOJ required that AA give up DCA slots equal to AA's entire pre-merger DCA slot holdings, and that was a larger number than US acquired from DL in the slot swap. Result? New AA has fewer DCA slots now that US had before the slot swap with DL. Now, new AA is smaller at both LGA and DCA. Delta clearly got the best of Parker.

the DOJ got the best of Parker. AA should have never been forced to do some of the things it did in that merger. 
 
Long as Southwest is happy logic and fairness be dammed. 

 

[topDawg]

No thanks. Anyone who thinks a metro area with 132 Waffle Houses is considered world class clearly isn't worth my time.

hey now.....
not a gosh damn thing wrong with WH. 
 
 
*yes I generally eat breakfast at my local WH once or twice week. All star special is always on point.  

 

[eolesen]

Oh, I like WH as well. Their all-you-can-eat special in the 1990's really saved me a lot of money.

But there's something called moderation... and 132 locations in the ATL is a bit extreme. McDonalds only has about 180 stores in the same footprint.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I guess, in your mind everybody is confused.  Like the DOJ, COD, SWA, UAL, Virgin, DFW, DAL, Fort Worth and anyone else who says something negative about Delta...
 
Southwest leasing two Dallas Love Field gates from United
 
And I quote, " Since United however also sub leases some its gate capacity to Delta Air Lines (DL, Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson) for Delta's five daily B717-200 services to Atlanta, Delta's operations at the airport are now also at risk yet again."

and what you cannot accept or refuse to is that allowing any airport to be come so concentrated that a single carrier can operate as many seats as AA operates at DCA where AA is the largest carrier or as DL at LGA despite the fact that WN has 90% of the gates and 95% of the seats compared to just over 50% for AA at DCA and under 50% for DL at LGA is the most complete abortion of justice and antitrust laws in the US.

Whether the Wright Amendment, 6 party agreement or any other law allowed WN to do what it has done is not the point.
the point is what WN has become at DAL and there is every legal basis for terminating the agreement and allowing other carriers to gain access commensurate with what WN gained at DCA and LGA under the very same pretense.

 

[topDawg]

Oh, I like WH as well. Their all-you-can-eat special in the 1990's really saved me a lot of money.

But there's something called moderation... and 132 locations in the ATL is a bit extreme. McDonalds only has about 180 stores in the same footprint.

I don't think its a knock.. 
How many CFAs are in the Atlanta area? aint nothing wrong with it as long as they are making money. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

other than your attempts to try to drown out my posts on the issue, what does CFA or any other restaurant have to do with gates at DAL?

maybe its time for the moderators to clean out the posts that don't have to do with the subject and/or lock the thread.

 

[topDawg]

other than your attempts to try to drown out my posts on the issue, what does CFA or any other restaurant have to do with gates at DAL?

maybe its time for the moderators to clean out the posts that don't have to do with the subject and/or lock the thread.

lol what? 
 
Not all of us are as nearly obsessed with you as you are champ. 
 
lol.... thats just to funny.         

 

[FWAAA]

and what you cannot accept or refuse to is that allowing any airport to be come so concentrated that a single carrier can operate as many seats as AA operates at DCA where AA is the largest carrier or as DL at LGA despite the fact that WN has 90% of the gates and 95% of the seats compared to just over 50% for AA at DCA and under 50% for DL at LGA is the most complete abortion of justice and antitrust laws in the US.

I agree. But there's a wide gulf between the way things are, and the way things should be.

In 2006, I was appalled at the compromise that resulted in WN controlling 80% of the gates, leaving AA and XJT just two each. But Congress and the President have the power to ratify ridiculous agreements that would violate lotsa laws in the absence of the lawmakers' ratification.

The WARA was a loss for consumers nationwide and a big victory for Southwest Airlines. In the old days, WN's interests and consumers' interests were more closely aligned, but these days, high-fare WN with costs not terribly lower than its legacy competitors wins at the expense of competition.

Perhaps DL will lobby Congress to re-write the WARA and maybe DL's lobbyists can convince the current President (or the next one) to sign the revised legislation. I forecast permanent peace in the Middle East as a much more likely scenario.

 

[jcw]

If you want the moderators to do that they would have to lock almost every thread since one cheerleader is almost certain to take things off topic