UA transfers its two DAL (Love Field) gates to Southwest; Is DL out?

[WorldTraveler]

and all it takes is one airline that is denied access to file a lawsuit.

DAL is either a federally funded airport which means that all carriers have the right to serve it or it is a private airport and then WN has to pay the bill itself and is then free to lock up all of the gates.

I submit that the very reason why WN has accommodated DL even with 5 flts/day to ATL and will continue to do so is to provide just enough access to keep DL from filing suit.

If WN really is going to succeed at expanding DAL, they will need to be willing to give DL and other carriers, including AA, long-term access.

IF UA doesn't want to serve DAL, that is their choice. but I can assure you that AA would be back at DAL in a heartbeat and DL will expand its schedule if it has gates... .and neither will support any DAL expansion unless they can be a part of it.

despite what many here said, DAL is a viable airport and a success and is developing as an alternative airport to DFW much differently (and strongly) than HOU is to IAH or MDW is to ORD.

the free market needs to be allowed to work... that means more flights for WN if the market supports them but it also means more flights for other carriers that want to be there.

 

[swamt]

because UA made it clear they weren't terribly interested in serving DAL from the time the WA was due to end, that's how.

all they did was to try to block DL from gaining gates because they knew they could lease them to WN for more money.

still doesn't change that whatever UA does with its operation doesn't change DL's rights to have access to DAL and DL's willingness to push the issue as far as need be to make the case.

controlling 90% of the gates at an airport and blocking access to newcomers is the ideal case for an antitrust lawsuit if there ever was one, regardless if the present DOJ is capable of seeing it or not.

Uh, UAL, Virgin, and SWA was in fact successful in blocking Delta from gaining more gates.  Delta wanted more gates from the very beginning. Virgin won the 2 gates that Delta and SWA wanted, that was the first block. Then UAL sub-leased to SWA one of those gates, who then sub-leased to Delta on a "temporary basis"  when that "tempporary" lease was up in Jan 2015, Delta was able to extend this "temporary" lease to July 2015. The only reason it was extended was do to the one gate not being fully utilized to it's max potential, which it is clearly explained in the 5 party agreement that other airlines will be accommodated "IF" someone is not fully utilizing the gates.  Now we move forward to the perm "long term" lease agreement UAL is sub-leasing to SWA and "IF" SWA does in fact fully utilize these gates then there will no longer be room to "accommodate" Delta or any other airline at LF, therefore, Delta may in fact be asked to leave.  Let's not forget that all leases and sub-leases has been and are approved by both the DOJ as well as the COD who owns and controls the gates at LF.  The only reason Delta is still at LF is directly tied to a gate not being fully utilized at max potential, and like I said "if" these 2 gates get fully utilized then there will be no room to accommodate Delta or another airline.  All this still doesn't change that Delta has been restricted to only 5 flights as they are still sharing a gate 1/2 a gate if you will.  That is a huge difference from the 2 full gates Delta wanted and in fact does block them from gaining any more gates, so again you are wrong...
 

Yeah, except that it appears that DL is the only airline other than VX and WN who are interested in serving DAL right now. And I'm still not sure that VX is going to be in it for the long haul.

I agree with your statement about VX being in it for the long haul.  If they are not, then I would lean towards VX sub-leasing to Delta before they would sub-lease to SWA, IF that situation would arise. This will get very interesting come July as the drama of LF will all play out again, but I foresee SWA fully using these 2 gates from UAL by July.  Maybe VX will cut back just enough to allow Delta to stay and keep their 5 flights, who knows???

 

[WorldTraveler]

and what you can't seem to get thru your head is that if WN has ANY hope of getting DAL expanded, and there is a viable case to argue it should be done, WN will not succeed at doing that if it has kicked out airlines that want to serve DAL and that results in a lawsuit that could undo everything WN has gained.

you don't understand the art of negotiation. WN does.

If you are even close to being right that WN is working on plans to expand DAL and remove the int'l restrictions, they WILL NOT end DL's lease for 1/2 of a gate's worth of flights.

doing that would fall under the category of "cut off your nose to spite your face"

DL likely will support WN's plans to expand DAL but only if DL gets a permanent and expanded role at DAL. the same is equally true of AA whether you can see it or not.


DFW, DAL, Dallas, and Ft. Worth will do what makes business sense and growth is good for both airports... and both airports will get it.

 

[topDawg]

 
https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/561293755182243843
 
This is an interesting turn of events.   Maybe DL can wait out VX and then get those gates.   
Truly astounding that the Justice Dep't allowed WN to gain control of them.   It's becoming more clear every day that the current administration does not understand even the basics of antitrust law.   WN now controls 90% of a scarce resource, and 80% was too much.   

exactly. To not even open this up for a bid just shows that Southwest must be sending some crazy money to Obama. 
 

This is messed up if it's true that the DOJ just accepted this sublease without getting any other airline opinions on the matter. Southwest controls 90% of DAL gates and 81% of MDW gates with the blessing of the DOJ. Yet CO/UA can't get more than 73% of EWR gates and must divest. And AA/US gave up LGA, DAL, BOS, LAX where they don't dominate and weren't even the biggest carrier, yet at DFW & CLT where they do dominate they don't give up anything.
Just gotta really love our government. Unbelievable if true!
I hope Delta is locked out, sues and wins.

It is so screwed up. DL/UA/AA all had to give up slots and/or gates in marketplaces when WN is sitting over here with 80%+ control in some of the largest air markets in the world. 
 

very interesting turn of events.     but I have to ask  since the feds did this to DAL  then is it possible a revisit to LGA gate swap   esp to get AA and US to be closer together would happen soon??

Not sure what you mean Robbed
 
but as it is, no. American or US Airways are Obama and cos love child. Southwest gets away with anything they want while the other airlines have to, you know, live by the laws. 
 

C'mon people.  I think UAL was getting squeezed and actually wanted to leave LF and move their operations on over to DFW.  They saw an option to move and get paid to move.  What surprises me is, UAL, in the past, refused to sub-lease to Delta.  UAL had numerous times they could have leased to Delta and they chose to lease to SWA first, temporarily, then perm long term. Why wouldn't UAL lease to Delta at all?  This does in fact speaks volumes.  This is not a shocker, I told you all this was coming, I just had no clue it was coming this quick, as I was expecting it to come next year some time.  But I see now that SWA needed to step up the pace earlier.  All leases and sub leases are in fact accepted by both the DOJ as well as the COD.  Done deal folks, get over it...  You just gotta LUV this stuff man!!!

You have to be a WN employee or complete fool to love this. Once again the love child of the government is getting a super majority of control at an airport. 
 
Question, how loudly did you ***** about the Delta/US slot swap your airline was against? Because Delta would have less control at LGA if it had gone through as planned than WN now has at DAL. So please explain how this is good for the customer? 
 

Maybe Delta should look at that secondary airport over there in ATL?  All airlines that are at LF and want to serve LF should band together and fight for adding more gates.  Take the cap back to the original 32 gates.  Virgin could expand to 4 gates, UAL could keep their 2 gates, Delta could have 2 gates and SWA could have 24 gates.  This way everyone is happy, I think, LOL...

Not even the same ball park as comparable (at it is getting pretty sad this keeps coming up) 
 
Does ATL have a gate cap? Nope
Can anyone, today, fly into ATL without any problem? Yep
Does ATL have open domestic and international gates? Yep
Does ATL have plenty of room on the currently field to grow? Yep
Is ATL going to be stopped by a law from growth? Nope
does a single carrier have control over 90% of the gates at ATL? Nope. 
 
I know, because Southwest is getting the dog **** kicked out of them in Atlanta, you guys want to tuck tail and run to another airport(again) but it would be stupid for Atlanta tax payers to pay for any kind of 2nd airport in the area. If/when ATL becomes anything remotely comparable to DAL then something should be done. 

 

[robbedagain]

dawg  I was wondering how the US/DL slot swap had to go thru the ringers with the feds yet this deal SWA made seemed to clear awfully quick.   I do agree with you that US and AA are poster children

 

[topDawg]

dawg  I was wondering how the US/DL slot swap had to go thru the ringers with the feds yet this deal SWA made seemed to clear awfully quick.   I do agree with you that US and AA are poster children

Because WN went crying to the DOT about it. 
 
If Delta and US had not had to balls to sick their legal team on the .gov the slot swap wouldn't have happened. 
 
 
And if did Southwest was going to get ~50 out of the 120 or so slots Delta got. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

robbed,
dawg can and should answer but remember that AA made a great deal about being the largest airline in the world with the merger. WN also has a reputation - whether accurate or not today - that they are a low fare carrier. The simple fact is that they price as high as they can given a large enough share of the market. it is precisely for that reason that they want to move as quickly to gain access before it becomes obvious that they will do to DAL to LGA/DCA/LAX etc airfares what they did to HOU, STL, MCI etc where they have average fares that are as high as AA's or higher.

WN prices low only where it has to - just what any other profit motivated company would do.

if WN has the opportunity to price ABOVE what other carriers do, which is exactly what they do from DAL to HOU compared to other carriers to Houston, they will take the premium.

they don't want the DOJ to realize they are not a low fare carrier if they have a high share of the market - because that is exactly the justification the DOJ has used to force divestitures on the legacy carriers when they have merged or traded assets to give them a high percentage of the assets in a market.

and remember that US ended up with a higher share of DCA slots than DL had at LGA. Part of the problem with the slot deal was that the DOJ did not allow US to gain the same percentage of slots as DL gained at LGA. if you remember, US got less slots at DCA than DL got at LGA which is a larger and more business oriented airport. the LGA-DCA slot deal was clearly in DL's favor but US persisted anyway.

dawg,
you are answering more with respect to the merger than the slot deal. WN gained far more out of the merger than they did with the slot deal

 

[topDawg]

robbed,
dawg can and should answer but remember that AA made a great deal about being the largest airline in the world with the merger. WN also has a reputation - whether accurate or not today - that they are a low fare carrier. The simple fact is that they price as high as they can given a large enough share of the market. it is precisely for that reason that they want to move as quickly to gain access before it becomes obvious that they will do to DAL to LGA/DCA/LAX etc airfares what they did to HOU, STL, MCI etc where they have average fares that are as high as AA's or higher.

WN prices low only where it has to - just what any other profit motivated company would do.

if WN has the opportunity to price ABOVE what other carriers do, which is exactly what they do from DAL to HOU compared to other carriers to Houston, they will take the premium.

they don't want the DOJ to realize they are not a low fare carrier if they have a high share of the market - because that is exactly the justification the DOJ has used to force divestitures on the legacy carriers when they have merged or traded assets to give them a high percentage of the assets in a market.

and remember that US ended up with a higher share of DCA slots than DL had at LGA. Part of the problem with the slot deal was that the DOJ did not allow US to gain the same percentage of slots as DL gained at LGA. if you remember, US got less slots at DCA than DL got at LGA which is a larger and more business oriented airport. the LGA-DCA slot deal was clearly in DL's favor but US persisted anyway.

dawg,
you are answering more with respect to the merger than the slot deal. WN gained far more out of the merger than they did with the slot deal

WN didn't get anything out of the (or much out of the) slot swap because Delta and US airways legal team made it clear that the DOT/DOJ better settle out of court. Once the lawyers at the DOT/DOJ looked into it then they realized they can't just give away Delta's or US's assets because WN calls themselves a LCC. 

 

[eolesen]

I agree with your statement about VX being in it for the long haul.  If they are not, then I would lean towards VX sub-leasing to Delta before they would sub-lease to SWA, IF that situation would arise.

AA still owns the master lease, so VX can't just sublease out to DL.

DL would have to come to terms with AA on a sublease, or the City could approach AA about buying them out of their lease early.

 

[WorldTraveler]

WN didn't get anything out of the (or much out of the) slot swap because Delta and US airways legal team made it clear that the DOT/DOJ better settle out of court. Once the lawyers at the DOT/DOJ looked into it then they realized they can't just give away Delta's or US's assets because WN calls themselves a LCC.

that's valid...

and your point is still valid that WN made an enormous stink about not having access to DCA and LGA as part of the AA/US merger even though they could have bought their way in if they wanted to but they now want to take up of gates at DAL such that no one could buy their way in if they wanted to.


AA can try to keep DL out of DAL thru not signing a sublease if they want but it all still comes down to that it is DAL's responsibility to provide gates for non-lease holders that want to serve the airport. It is the same basis for why common use gates exist at nearly every other airport in the US.

It is DAL's problem that they did not write the leases to accommodate non-leaseholding airlines but it will be WN that will pay the price if the case is pushed to court. WN is smart enough to not push the case into court but they also want to get moving on construction and expansion as fast as they can so they can keep growing and not have growth stalled by carriers that are left out.

The best way for WN to grow DAL is to let other carriers that want to grow at DAL - which will include AA and DL - into DAL even if it means giving up half of a gate now for DL and a couple gates to each of AA and DL when a terminal expansion is approved.

WN will get nothing if it doesn't give other carriers something.

and it has been soundly proven that there is no market based reason for any of the 5 parties to be protected in any way from each other or open competition for all.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks dawg  that better explains it all. 

 

[topDawg]

thanks dawg  that better explains it all. 

and more importantly to your point, 
 
US, in the original deal was going to move its shuttle to the MAT and its non-Shuttle opps to the dates in D. I am note sure if US could do that and then beable to fit the non-shuttle flying in with AA at the CTB or not. (but that could all happen tomorrow if DL/AA wanted it too) 

 

[robbedagain]

I don't know either      does AA have a larger presence at LGA vs US and DL?     I do believe the original deal was that the Shuttle would operate out of MAT   US has a much smaller presence not including the Shuttle at LGA following the slot swap deal  but not sure how  much larger it is w the AA and the Shuttle included.     
 
my apologizes for taking it off track

 

[WorldTraveler]

US was going to move its entire LGA operation to the MAT, not just the Shuttle. It would have made even less sense for US to have a split operation involving the Shuttle in one terminal and its remaining hub operations - most of which are CLT flights - in another location at LGA.

US was smart enough to recognize that it isn't worth being in the MAT at all undoubtedly because they did foresee a merger by the time the Shuttle deal was closing.

DL at this point would be happy to consolidate all of its operations into C/D but has to get someone to be willing to move into the MAT. I suspect that it will be WN or B6, both of whom have LGA operations ideally sized for the MAT>

I also wouldn't be surprised if DL is trying to link access to DAL to allowing WN to move to the MAT. Having a separate facility is exactly the type of WN thinking that makes WN an ideal candidate for the MAT.

 

[topDawg]

US was going to move its entire LGA operation to the MAT, not just the Shuttle. It would have made even less sense for US to have a split operation involving the Shuttle in one terminal and its remaining hub operations - most of which are CLT flights - in another location at LGA.

US was smart enough to recognize that it isn't worth being in the MAT at all undoubtedly because they did foresee a merger by the time the Shuttle deal was closing.

DL at this point would be happy to consolidate all of its operations into C/D but has to get someone to be willing to move into the MAT. I suspect that it will be WN or B6, both of whom have LGA operations ideally sized for the MAT>

I also wouldn't be surprised if DL is trying to link access to DAL to allowing WN to move to the MAT. Having a separate facility is exactly the type of WN thinking that makes WN an ideal candidate for the MAT.

No it was not. It was just like I said. Shuttle to the MAT, PIT, PHL,and CLT on three gates (on the far side) of D. 
 
US wouldn't fit in the MAT. 
 

I don't know either      does AA have a larger presence at LGA vs US and DL?     I do believe the original deal was that the Shuttle would operate out of MAT   US has a much smaller presence not including the Shuttle at LGA following the slot swap deal  but not sure how  much larger it is w the AA and the Shuttle included.     
 
my apologizes for taking it off track

Delta is bigger than AA/US by, IIRC 100 slots or so.