Twu Vs Amfa

[j7915]

How can you claim amfa is our "only option"? Why can't we have our own union like the pilots and fa's? They didn't run out and join some joke of a union. Why do I want to be in a union that has EIGHT other airlines in it? Why would I want them meddling in our business? Its bad enough with the bagsmashers in our union! Amfa is no longer an idea. It's been around for quite a few years now and its results have not been pretty. Alaska has been very profitable over the last decade yet its mechanics are the lowest paid in the industry. Plus they keep losing work to outsourcing. NWA is the healthest major hub and spoke carrier yet they have the worst level of layoffs! How do you think amfa will help us? Will they guarantee us a lower insurance payment? Will they guarantee us higher pay? In writing?

You go file all the paperwork with the DOL after you have written a Constitution under this "new union", if I read the Constitution and determine it isn't a carbon copy of the Commie TWU Rules, I will sign a card.

What gets me is most TWU enthusiast used to scream "strength in numbers" and "we cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of labor"...

Now you advocating a new union sperate from other airlines. :blink:

RV4, why don't you answer the questions? Give me some idea how AMFA will address the question of outsourcing, higher medical, etc.?

Please no more wise cracks about "communist" constitutions or your misguided sarcasm about the industrial unions failure of the "strength in numbers" rhetoric.

Just start posting what proposals, you personaly, would submit to the Local 12 to improve what you see as a deteriorating situation.

 

[RV4]

RV4, why don't you answer the questions? Give me some idea how AMFA will address the question of outsourcing, higher medical, etc.?

Please no more wise cracks about "communist" constitutions or your misguided sarcasm about the industrial unions failure of the "strength in numbers" rhetoric.

Just start posting what proposals, you personaly, would submit to the Local 12 to improve what you see as a deteriorating situation.

First proposal would be to send everyone to training to insure that everyones stops believing the UNION IS SOMETHING ELSE besides themselves.

We are in this position because you and everyone seem to think the union is an institution sperate from the members, and with TWU, this is true.

Once we get AMFA, it is going to be what are "WE" willing to fight for, not what proposal we can send to the "union" and have "them" fix everything.

In other words, there needs to be a fundamental change in the understanding of what "unionism" means, and what each member's responsiblities entail.

That my friend, is the most difficult, and the most important task of all.

Until, you get yourself and others away from the top down dictators that have stolen the supreme authority from us, then we are screwed and can continue to correctly blame "the union".

 

[Jim Martin]

To: AAMECH

AMFA is the only established union available that can oust a AFL/CIO union. They are also the reason TWU got what they got in 2001. We've seen what the TWU is doing to us. Were going backwards with no relief insight. I'm no great fan of AMFA but I know what the TWU is doing to us.

As far as the layoffs go. TWU/AA has there share. Not to mention the OSM position. AMT's who were making $25-$35 an hour are now making $15-$25. How much are you willing to give? I don't want to lose my job anymore than you but to lose not only wages then benifits and time off with my family, It's just to much. We won't even get into the way layoffs were handled by John McDonald in TUL, which by the way was totally wrong.

Once again I'll say that just because AMFA at NWA does one thing doesn't mean that AMFA at AA will do the same. To say that is the way it is would be the same as saying the TWU rampers at Southwest have the same contract as the TWU rampers at AA.

As far as RO work goes. Since our fine Scope clause is so clear and they (TWU/AA) keep telling us that all we outsource is 22% then lets just make that our limit. No more than 22%. AA can go under that but not above it. No more Gray area in the contract. Black and white is what we need. Not something open for interpitation.

Will AMFA guarantee a wage in writing. I doubt it. But to date I haven't seen them go the wrong way. In fact you kinda answered your own question here. Since it appears to me that AMFA has chosen to protect the contract rather than jobs.

Like RV4 said if you want to write a constitution up and start a new union not affiliated with the AFL/CIO just for M&R, make it happen (quick), before the TWU does more damage.

Have a nice day

 

[_AMT_MCI]

Also note....without union participation in backing your local you have no power...and don't think the company doesn't see this. Thank you Another For Me Assoc. for attempting to split my floor during despairing times...have you all ever recruited during good times...and if so...did anyone show?

 

[Jim Martin]

I've participaited, I've gotten involved with the TWU, refer back to the original post. You can't change the TWU. It would be nice if you could but you can't. you talk about for ME. What do you call all the AMT's taking OT, feild trips. They laid off 5 from PHL and didn't lower the workload. Not to mention there are 4 there on ID and 1 fired. The workload continues to get done. I've been asked for OT 3 times this week in DFW for b check. there short people. Do I take it, no, but someone will because, there out for ME, that is what it's all about ME. It's been this way long before AMFA, the TWU created the ME problem not anyone else. Im all for getting invoved in the union process but do be blinded by it.

Have a nice day

 

[Jim Martin]

don't be blinded by it. Sorry

 

[RUM@AA]

NWA is the healthest major hub and spoke carrier yet they have the worst level of layoffs!

That's why they're healthy! They didn't just sit on their hands in 2000 when the economy took a downturn, they downsized. When terrorists attacked us and crippled the airline industry, they downsized more. AA did nothing but cry "we're loosing 4 million a day" for 18 months then came to the unions crying broke. And in the name of saving jobs, Sonny Hall and Jim Little surrendered 30 years worth of negotiated pay and benifits. It is a very sad day in our country's history, and in the history of Labor, when employees of so called "American Airlines" are [/SIZE]FORCEDto work on Memorial Day, when the rest of the country is honoring our fallen military heros.
NorthWest Airlines has laid off some 17000 employees since 2000. Are they all AMFA's fault? NO.
Lay-offs have allways been a part of the airline industry, until now. Now we just let our labor "leaders" surrender our pay and benifits to save jobs.
Imagine if all airline mechanics were in one union. You mentioned the pilots? What about ALPA? That's all the other airline's pilots union and they seem to do just fine.
The truth is there is no strong effort to start an independent AA Mechanic's union. There is only AMFA! We are almost there. Get on board, or get out of the way.

 

[KCFlyer]

That's why they're healthy! They didn't just sit on their hands in 2000 when the economy took a downturn, they downsized. When terrorists attacked us and crippled the airline industry, they downsized more.

And those AMT's that were downsized at NWA are proudly flipping burgers, knowing that when that 50 year old mechanic retires in 15 years, he'll get right back in to full pay and benefits, although he'll only be two years away from retirement himself. The AMFA strategy sounds GREAT for those at the top of the seniority list. I'm real curious to find out what the guys on the low to mid levels of the senority list feel.

 

[Bob Owens]

And those AMT's that were downsized at NWA are proudly flipping burgers, knowing that when that 50 year old mechanic retires in 15 years, he'll get right back in to full pay and benefits, although he'll only be two years away from retirement himself. The AMFA strategy sounds GREAT for those at the top of the seniority list. I'm real curious to find out what the guys on the low to mid levels of the senority list feel.

Well is there a card drive at NWA for another union?

I have not heard of any card drive over at NWA. I guess that they are okay with maintaining the standard instead of taking permanent cuts in pay and benifits.

If the goal of Unionism was full employment even at the cost of low wages and lost benifits then why support programs like Unemployment Insurance and Welfare?

The labor movement built the "safety net" so this way when the inevitable happens and there is overproduction that wage levels could be maintained. Over the long run all workers make out better. Jim Littles strategy of settling for reduced wages, lost benifits and job cuts benifits the company by allowing them to use short term crisis to gain long term cuts. His policies mimic the ideology of RTW proponents who claim that lower wages benifit workers.

Bad times are inevitable, we built a seniority system to mitigate its effects over time. When you dont have seniority you will get laid off when demand ebbs. Lower wages will not stop recessions so Jims policies are flawed. People will still get laid off but thanks to Jim, wages and benifits will be permanently lowered. When the good times return, we will still be living in our own "recession".

Years ago junior workers would get laid off every year, but as they gained seniority they would not get hit. This was accepted as the price we pay so that over the long haul we all would enjoy higher living standards. In other words so we would have a better future. Under Jim Little we really dont have a prosperous future to look foward to in this industry, instead we will continue along the downward trend, locked in a permanent concessionary cycle just like the last twenty years.

What is particularly galling is the fact that while Jim Little sells this crap to us, using all the tricks and sales gimmicks of the RTW committee he, and all the other full time International officers get much bettter deals for themselves, at our expense.

At the last COPE convention the International was in an uproar over proposed reporting requirements for labor organizations. Imagine if the workers were to find out about the pensions and benifits that these leaders get for themselves in addition to their six figure salaries? It seems that they are not willing to work for less even though they are telling us we should. And, we cant vote them out!

 

[RV4]

And those AMT's that were downsized at NWA are proudly flipping burgers, knowing that when that 50 year old mechanic retires in 15 years, he'll get right back in to full pay and benefits, although he'll only be two years away from retirement himself. The AMFA strategy sounds GREAT for those at the top of the seniority list. I'm real curious to find out what the guys on the low to mid levels of the senority list feel.

What about majority rule? Does that apply in your union anymore Jim?

Or are you going to save us from ourselves at every turn?

Can you say DICTATOR "without further ratification"?

It doesn't appear the NWA Mechanic has any interest in your concessions for jobs program. In fact, your IAM stooge that appears in Tulsa on regular basis has openly rejected the idea of having a TWU drive at NWA. I wonder why that is?

 

[twuer]

(posted by kcflyer. . .)
The AMFA strategy sounds GREAT for those at the top of the seniority list. I'm real curious to find out what the guys on the low to mid levels of the senority list feel.

HOORAY!!!!! Someone else finally gets it!! You hit the nail right on the head Flyer!! Now let's see if they can respond . . .

 

[KCFlyer]

It is a very sad day in our country's history, and in the history of Labor, when employees of so called "American Airlines" are [/SIZE]FORCEDto work on Memorial Day, when the rest of the country is honoring our fallen military heros.

Odd...From my home, I am able to see manyaircraft flying over, and on Memorial Day, I noticed that there were Southwest, United, and Northwest (all AMFA represented airlines) flying over, along with the American Airlines aircraft (represented by those Communist dictators at the TWU). Are you inferring that at AMFA represented airlines, maintenance gets a day off on national holidays? What about the planes that have a mechanical problem on the day when the rest of the county (except for retail, transportation, public safety, grocery, and various other industries) is honoring our fallen military heros?

Well is there a card drive at NWA for another union?

I have not heard of any card drive over at NWA. I guess that they are okay with maintaining the standard instead of taking permanent cuts in pay and benifits

I dunno...are laid off employees allowed to start a card drive?

What about majority rule? Does that apply in your union anymore Jim?

Or are you going to save us from ourselves at every turn?

Can you say DICTATOR "without further ratification"?

It doesn't appear the NWA Mechanic has any interest in your concessions for jobs program. In fact, your IAM stooge that appears in Tulsa on regular basis has openly rejected the idea of having a TWU drive at NWA. I wonder why that is?

Odd...I notice the subtitle of this thread is "Tulsa needs to step up". Your response to anyone (especially the Tulsa mechanics) is to take off on a rant about "DICATATORs" and "stooges" and referring to people named Jim. That is an odd way of winning them over to your side...most folks don't really like being called a "stooge". From what I have read, your strategy seems to be to get enough signatures for a revote, then hope like hell for a low turnout in Tulsa so that you can get the union of your choice in the door.

It would seem that your worst nightmare would be for a large turnout of "stooges" in Tulsa, because as I understand things, the number of signed cards is not necessarily an endorsement of AMFA, but rather a statement of "anybody but TWU". So there isn't any guarantee that all of your 7,000 + card signers would vote "for" AMFA. Anything I'm missing there?

 

[FWAAA]

That's why they're healthy! They didn't just sit on their hands in 2000 when the economy took a downturn, they downsized. When terrorists attacked us and crippled the airline industry, they downsized more. AA did nothing but cry "we're loosing 4 million a day" for 18 months then came to the unions crying broke. And in the name of saving jobs, Sonny Hall and Jim Little surrendered 30 years worth of negotiated pay and benifits. It is a very sad day in our country's history, and in the history of Labor, when employees of so called "American Airlines" are [/SIZE]FORCEDto work on Memorial Day, when the rest of the country is honoring our fallen military heros.
NorthWest Airlines has laid off some 17000 employees since 2000. Are they all AMFA's fault? NO.
Lay-offs have allways been a part of the airline industry, until now. Now we just let our labor "leaders" surrender our pay and benifits to save jobs.
Imagine if all airline mechanics were in one union. You mentioned the pilots? What about ALPA? That's all the other airline's pilots union and they seem to do just fine.
The truth is there is no strong effort to start an independent AA Mechanic's union. There is only AMFA! We are almost there. Get on board, or get out of the way.

Your post implies that AA did not lay off employees prior to demanding pay cuts. Nothing could be further from reality. Don't you pay attention to the news?

Didn't AA lay off nearly 20,000 people following September 11?

It was widely reported that AA was trimming its schedule by about 20% and would lay off roughly 20,000 people. Some of that was added back, but AA's capacity and traffic are both down nearly 20% from early 2001. The concessions required some additional furloughs - on top of those let go in 2001-2002.

Sorry that several holidays are nowhere near as lucrative as they used to be. Plenty of people in the country work for straight time on holidays. You'll get used to it.

No lies, no rhetoric, just some facts.

 

[twuer]

("Bob" says. . .)
I have not heard of any card drive over at NWA. I guess that they are okay with maintaining the standard instead of taking permanent cuts in pay and benifits.

You are probably right Bob, but you have to ask your self why. It's probably because those who voted FOR AMFA to begin with are the only ones left there. They got what they wanted and everyone else is looking for another job! AMFA has secured your job if you have 1990 seniorlty. Are you telling all those
unsuspecting union brothers and sisters here in Tulsa, who don't have a that kind of seniority, that if they sign an AMFA card they will more that likely lose their job if AMFA gets voted in?? Somehow I doubt it. AMFA has a history of signing away jobs. Don't tell 'em that either I bet.

(another quote from "Bob")
Imagine if the workers were to find out about the pensions and benifits that these leaders get for themselves in addition to their six figure salaries?

Just curious "Bob", what does Delle make a year??/COLOR]

 

[twuer]

(from FWAAA toRUM@AA. . .)
No lies, no rhetoric, just some facts.

Take the NO's out of that and you have the AMFA strategy. They only print the truths they want to believe. They will never admit that the TWU got us the ILC. But because sacrifices were needed (by all the employees not just TWU-M&R) to save the company from going bankrupt they put every spin imaginable on it to look as if the TWU did something completely out of the question. I would venture to guess that the AMFA supporters on these boards have the seniority needed to save their jobs. Do you think they are telling the union brothers and sisters in TUL, who don't have the seniority, that if they sign an AMFA card they will more than likely lose their jobs if AMFA gets voted in? I doubt it. Or that AMFA has a history of bargaining away jobs instead of fighting to keep them? Doubt that too.

I was (am still am) very proud of my "union" (members) for taking the stance that they took. AA will bounce back. It might not came soon enough for some, but you can't blame the union for that. Although AMFA will blame the TWU for everything!! We will get back what we sacrificed and more with the help of the TWU (and ourselves) not AMFA! A union is only as strong as its' members. It was these members who saved the company. Not because "we were in bed with them" (a famous AMFA boy quote) but because we believe what was done was the right thing. AA is a great company to work for. The TWU just makes it better!

Get ready for the spins to hit the fan. . .[/COLOR]