Twu Ad - Aa Gets Hit Again

[Steve Connell]

How come Steve does not want to talk about this?

I respect Butch and consider him a friend...to carry on about this would be your style, not mine. Or do you consider every matter your business or a TWU plot to deceive, and do you often hear black helicopters overhead? The International had nothing to do with the proceedings, I know you'd like to blame the industrial communistic ununionistic brothers but not this time...get your info from an AMFA rep..they like to spread names through the mud.

 

[Thomas Paine]

How come Steve does not want to talk about this?

I respect Butch and consider him a friend...to carry on about this would be your style, not mine. Or do you consider every matter your business or a TWU plot to deceive, and do you often hear black helicopters overhead? The International had nothing to do with the proceedings, I know you'd like to blame the industrial communistic ununionistic brothers but not this time...get your info from an AMFA rep..they like to spread names through the mud.

Well in a Union we are all supposed to be in this together right? An injury to one is an injury to all right?

As long as you guys vote on the contract that I work under, yea it is my business if other locals are corrupt.

Not all the problems in this union lie with the International. Just most.

Communistic- I dont recall calling the International Communistic? That would be a compliment, the Communistic unions tend to be more militant. What we have is much much worse than a Communistic union, we have a company union. Communistic unions like the Long Shoremen and the CWA kick butt and fight for their members.

You consider him a friend but you dont seem very supportive of him.

I do hear helicopters often, not black ones though. The are usually on their way to West Hampton.

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

[/B]What exactly were the charges against Butch?
The Charges against Butch were,He met by himself with 1 or more members in management, failed to invite the E Board, and when he did invite, the E BOard was told by management and city they only wanted the president of our local
Were the charges so severe that it warranted removing him from office?
Butch was in negotiations with the city and VP of ME securing a lease to keep our jobs. The E Board wanted to be there. Also anotehr count, Butch started an E Board meeting but left to attend retirement party and left the VP in charge, this upset the E Board. Also, at his hearing, held by the E Board, questioned by his Successor, now our president, charges stated he overused his cell phone, had personal phone calls. Charges also include he hired a secretary, not the secretary he had chosen but he hired a secretary that an E Board member told Butch to hire.Another charge, Butch endorsed for Kansas City Labor Council, a woman who helped Butch and our local secure meetings and open door talks with the Mayor of Kansas City, the E Board wanted to endorse her opponent. After he was suspended, maybe a month or longer, the E Board finally wrote a letter to membership stating their case why they did what they did and why, one charge was, that Butch invited, asked officers of New York local to come here, knowing they were AMFA organizers,
The charge brought against Butch mainly is, that Butch didnt invite or include officers of the E Board in his talks and he didnt do what they wanted him to do, they told him, they are the power, not the president, he works for the EBoard and the E Board for the members

Shouldnt the E-board have let the members decide?
Thats what the majority of members beleive, thats why over the majority signed a petition, members who did not vote for Butch, 3 months earlier signed the petition. Members clearly stated to teh E Board if you had a problem with BUtch why didnt you discuss it with the membership?

When is your next regular elections?
We had our elections, finally I beleive last February, term limit for 3 years, if the suspension is upheld we will have another vote for VP, so far the international has not announced its decison on the Appeal

Do you have acces to the minutes of his trial?
Yes, The E Board first stated that anyone who wished to view the transcript would have to go to the local office and view it, no copies could be made. Butch received his copy, and the E Board received theirs. Copies of the transcript were flaoting around and read by membership, I must say, that after members read the transcript they were flabbergasted and could not beleive how our E Board to do this, they immediately went to Butch and told Butch that noway could the international let this stand. Butch had no idea what to expect at the hearing and was not prepared, he did not know the procedure, the E Board was well versed
One E Board officer stated numerous times when asked by Butch, a particular question, "Its Along Standing Policy of this Local"
When Butch would ask another Officer, he was told " this hearing is about you, not us" and would refuse to answer

The charges have to be specific.

Butch and the E Board didnt see eye to eye, tehy would not work with Butch and probably the other way too.

How come Steve does not want to talk about this?

If they are referring to us as the AMFA Group they are lying. I said nothing about AMFA. We were there trying to tell them why we were voting NO and why they should also.
You were in the group who came here? I remember your coming here, after wards. The E Board wrote a letter addressing your arrival here and your reason and our E Board was askingwe not do as you came here to do, urging us to vote for the concessions, this upset membership

You could start a petition to recall your E-bd. Then watch how quickly they start to say that it was not them who wanted it but so and so. Sounds to me like someone just wanted Butch's spot.

A Petition was started and last I heard had over 50% signatures, Im not sure if it has been sent to the international as of yet. The E Board felt they had more members on their side than against for their actions, the petition shows otehrwise

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

.

Well in a Union we are all supposed to be in this together right? An injury to one is an injury to all right?


As long as you guys vote on the contract that I work under, yea it is my business if other locals are corrupt

Not all the problems in this union lie with the International. Just most.



Thats true, I have seen the Tulsa TWU shirts with that slogan, and I agree completely, thats what I would like to see, to be complete, make that a statement of fact not just rhetoric

Another good quote, it does not matter what local does what, as long as the local works and does for the membership, put an end to corrupt locals, and yes, it is sad, but there are a few, Im not saying our local is corrupt, but if they, the E Board cant get along with president the memberships voted, only 3 short months prior, than something needs to be done

Most I hear here, alot is about members being upset with the locals? That would be an easy fix, with more member participation

 

[Bob Owens]

[/B]What exactly were the charges against Butch?
The Charges against Butch were,He met by himself with 1 or more members in management, failed to invite the E Board, and when he did invite, the E BOard was told by management and city they only wanted the president of our local
Were the charges so severe that it warranted removing him from office?
Butch was in negotiations with the city and VP of ME securing a lease to keep our jobs. The E Board wanted to be there. Also anotehr count, Butch started an E Board meeting but left to attend retirement party and left the VP in charge, this upset the E Board. Also, at his hearing, held by the E Board, questioned by his Successor, now our president, charges stated he overused his cell phone, had personal phone calls. Charges also include he hired a secretary, not the secretary he had chosen but he hired a secretary that an E Board member told Butch to hire.Another charge, Butch endorsed for Kansas City Labor Council, a woman who helped Butch and our local secure meetings and open door talks with the Mayor of Kansas City, the E Board wanted to endorse her opponent. After he was suspended, maybe a month or longer, the E Board finally wrote a letter to membership stating their case why they did what they did and why, one charge was, that Butch invited, asked officers of New York local to come here, knowing they were AMFA organizers,
The charge brought against Butch mainly is, that Butch didnt invite or include officers of the E Board in his talks and he didnt do what they wanted him to do, they told him, they are the power, not the president, he works for the EBoard and the E Board for the members

Shouldnt the E-board have let the members decide?
Thats what the majority of members beleive, thats why over the majority signed a petition, members who did not vote for Butch, 3 months earlier signed the petition. Members clearly stated to teh E Board if you had a problem with BUtch why didnt you discuss it with the membership?

When is your next regular elections?
We had our elections, finally I beleive last February, term limit for 3 years, if the suspension is upheld we will have another vote for VP, so far the international has not announced its decison on the Appeal

Do you have acces to the minutes of his trial?
Yes, The E Board first stated that anyone who wished to view the transcript would have to go to the local office and view it, no copies could be made. Butch received his copy, and the E Board received theirs. Copies of the transcript were flaoting around and read by membership, I must say, that after members read the transcript they were flabbergasted and could not beleive how our E Board to do this, they immediately went to Butch and told Butch that noway could the international let this stand. Butch had no idea what to expect at the hearing and was not prepared, he did not know the procedure, the E Board was well versed
One E Board officer stated numerous times when asked by Butch, a particular question, "Its Along Standing Policy of this Local"
When Butch would ask another Officer, he was told " this hearing is about you, not us" and would refuse to answer

The charges have to be specific.

Butch and the E Board didnt see eye to eye, tehy would not work with Butch and probably the other way too.

How come Steve does not want to talk about this?

If they are referring to us as the AMFA Group they are lying. I said nothing about AMFA. We were there trying to tell them why we were voting NO and why they should also.
You were in the group who came here? I remember your coming here, after wards. The E Board wrote a letter addressing your arrival here and your reason and our E Board was askingwe not do as you came here to do, urging us to vote for the concessions, this upset membership

You could start a petition to recall your E-bd. Then watch how quickly they start to say that it was not them who wanted it but so and so. Sounds to me like someone just wanted Butch's spot.

A Petition was started and last I heard had over 50% signatures, Im not sure if it has been sent to the international as of yet. The E Board felt they had more members on their side than against for their actions, the petition shows otehrwise

I was one of the two guys that made up "the Group".

Butch's crime was probably that he did not automatically fall lock step with Tulsa's Randy McDonald.

So he met with management? Whats wrong with that?

When it comes to leases between the city and the company your representative was merely an observer. The union really did not have any right to be there. He could not alter the lease, it is a contract between the city and the company. All he could have done there is tell them how his people would be affected should the base close. I dont see the big deal about this.

I would think that the President should have been present at a retirement party. Why didnt they just reschedule the E-bd meeting?

As far using the cell phone for personal use, if there was no nexus between his job and the usage then he should pay whatever charges were incurred. If Butch was on the road or working and he called his wife to let her know that he was working thats not really a personal call if it was a reasonable length of time. Did the board go through all phone bills with the same vigor?

Was he authorized by the Board to get a secretary? If so, then since he is the one who has to work with him/her then he should be free to pick who he wants, as long as the cost is the same.

If Butch gave the endorsement as Butch Sponougle President Local 530 then they really have no grounds however if he gave it as Local 530 then they would have the right to object, however removal from office is severe.

The charges about inviting AMFA supporters are completely unfounded. First of all we did not go there to promote AMFA. The paper that we wrote up did not mention AMFA. I identified myself as a TWU officer and our conversation was confined to the contract. AMFA was not even brought up. Our President, a TWU officer, called Butch and asked if we could come and try to talk to your guys about the contract, he said OK. Neither myself or the other guy I went with were AMFA organizers. Their assumption is apparently based upon the fact that we did not follow the Internationals line about how we should just lay back and accept paycuts and having our contract decimated. They apparently feel that if you do not accept whatever lies the International doles out that you are an AMFA supporter.

Is your current E-board primarily ex IAM officers?

If you realy want to get their attention go on hand pay. There is nothing wrong with it and it will send a strong message to the Board and the International. You still have to pay and you still have all the same rights as a member, you can even run for the VP slot, many confuse "Hand Pay" with "agency fee", they are completely different. One of the good things about Hand pay is that it could encourage more membership participation. Once guys go through the physical act of writing out a check, they may take more of an interest in finding out what that money is for, check-off makes it painless, they dont notice or care that the money is gone, they never see it.

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

[
I was one of the two guys that made up "the Group".

Butch's crime was probably that he did not automatically fall lock step with Tulsa's Randy McDonald.

So he met with management? Whats wrong with that?

When it comes to leases between the city and the company your representative was merely an observer. The union really did not have any right to be there. He could not alter the lease, it is a contract between the city and the company. All he could have done there is tell them how his people would be affected should the base close. I dont see the big deal about this.

I would think that the President should have been present at a retirement party. Why didnt they just reschedule the E-bd meeting?

As far using the cell phone for personal use, if there was no nexus between his job and the usage then he should pay whatever charges were incurred. If Butch was on the road or working and he called his wife to let her know that he was working thats not really a personal call if it was a reasonable length of time. Did the board go through all phone bills with the same vigor?

Was he authorized by the Board to get a secretary? If so, then since he is the one who has to work with him/her then he should be free to pick who he wants, as long as the cost is the same.

If Butch gave the endorsement as Butch Sponougle President Local 530 then they really have no grounds however if he gave it as Local 530 then they would have the right to object, however removal from office is severe.

The charges about inviting AMFA supporters are completely unfounded. First of all we did not go there to promote AMFA. The paper that we wrote up did not mention AMFA. I identified myself as a TWU officer and our conversation was confined to the contract. AMFA was not even brought up. Our President, a TWU officer, called Butch and asked if we could come and try to talk to your guys about the contract, he said OK. Neither myself or the other guy I went with were AMFA organizers. Their assumption is apparently based upon the fact that we did not follow the Internationals line about how we should just lay back and accept paycuts and having our contract decimated. They apparently feel that if you do not accept whatever lies the International doles out that you are an AMFA supporter.

Is your current E-board primarily ex IAM officers?

If you realy want to get their attention go on hand pay. There is nothing wrong with it and it will send a strong message to the Board and the International. You still have to pay and you still have all the same rights as a member, you can even run for the VP slot, many confuse "Hand Pay" with "agency fee", they are completely different. One of the good things about Hand pay is that it could encourage more membership participation. Once guys go through the physical act of writing out a check, they may take more of an interest in finding out what that money is for, check-off makes it painless, they dont notice or care that the money is gone, they never see it.

I was one of the two guys that made up "the Group".

Butch's crime was probably that he did not automatically fall lock step with Tulsa's Randy McDonald.

So he met with management? Whats wrong with that?

Thats what I asked? And also other E Board officers had met one on one behind closed doors also, but that was different? When Butch asked a VP who had yet to be voted in but was holding the position of VP until election, Butch asked him, if he had met one on one behind closed doors, he had only been in this position a month, The Vp stated, He could not remember........

When it comes to leases between the city and the company your representative was merely an observer. The union really did not have any right to be there. He could not alter the lease, it is a contract between the city and the company. All he could have done there is tell them how his people would be affected should the base close. I dont see the big deal about this.

Neither does the membership, Most beleive Butch was acting in the best interest of the membership, saving jobs, creating jobs.

I would think that the President should have been present at a retirement party. Why didnt they just reschedule the E-bd meeting?

At his hearing, the new President of our local asked Butch about the morning he had been present at the start of an E Board meeting but left mid way thru to go to the retirement party. Butch asked if in the event the president incapacitated, is it not the duty of the first VP to conclude the meetings?, The E Board quickly objected to Butch leaving and going to the retirement, citing his departure is a violation of the TWU constitution
Another matter brought in charges was that Butch did not take notes in meetings and share with the E BOard. Butch stated that because of confidentially issues he could not tell what was discussed at thse meetings.
Yet, as our new president, He went to Dallas for a meeting with Missouri government representatives and Kansas CIty Mayor and city council to meet Gerard ARpy and others of AA, Going alone without another E Board member from our local, instead, not taking an international rep, he went with an International lawyer, AA told all parties no lawyers would be allowed. Double Standard?

As far using the cell phone for personal use, if there was no nexus between his job and the usage then he should pay whatever charges were incurred. If Butch was on the road or working and he called his wife to let her know that he was working thats not really a personal call if it was a reasonable length of time. Did the board go through all phone bills with the same vigor?

Butch was suspended and immediately lost use of his cell phone, He went back on monday and took it back and called the international to ask about the hearing procedures. that week the E Board once again took his phone and announced he had incurred a phone bill in the amount of$400.00 over and above his 600 allocated minutes, yet when asked to compare phone bill records of each E Board member it was denied

Was he authorized by the Board to get a secretary? If so, then since he is the one who has to work with him/her then he should be free to pick who he wants, as long as the cost is the same.

He was. He had a secretary in mind but because an officer of the E Board asked him to hire another, he did. Even tho the secretary the E Board officer wanted hired was more expensive. Butch negotiated the secretaries contract, pay and benefits, in accordance with OPEIU. But because Butch didnt discuss this with the E Board, they objected to the contract.

If Butch gave the endorsement as Butch Sponougle President Local 530 then they really have no grounds however if he gave it as Local 530 then they would have the right to object, however removal from office is severe.

Butch felt that his choice had been instrumental in securing the talks to start and carry forward with the city, that he felt we should endorse her, Im not sure, but I beleive it was as Butch President of local 530. But teh E Board objected, tehy wanted to endorse another

The charges about inviting AMFA supporters are completely unfounded. First of all we did not go there to promote AMFA. The paper that we wrote up did not mention AMFA. I identified myself as a TWU officer and our conversation was confined to the contract. AMFA was not even brought up. Our President, a TWU officer, called Butch and asked if we could come and try to talk to your guys about the contract, he said OK. Neither myself or the other guy I went with were AMFA organizers. Their assumption is apparently based upon the fact that we did not follow the Internationals line about how we should just lay back and accept paycuts and having our contract decimated. They apparently feel that if you do not accept whatever lies the International doles out that you are an AMFA supporter.

Bob, It was much later, probably over a month after Butch had been suspended that the E Bopard came out with the letter accusing Butch of Inviting known AMFA organizers here. Reaching for straws, doing what they could to discredit Butch, because They saw that the members really didnt support what they had done, so they tried to belittle Butch

Is your current E-board primarily ex IAM officers?

The now president, was, Grievance committe alternate, picked to be on the transition team. He won election as first VP
Title 1 VP, as far as I know never held office
Title 2 past steward
Title5, served as Grievance committee office

Our local bought new Lap Top computers, I wont say they arent needed, because they are, but, As of today, I have not heard any officer of the E Board announce to membership, We bought lap top computers with local money. It may be true that they dont need a vote to spend money, its just a common courtesy to report to members where or whats going on?


.

 

[Bob Owens]

Our local bought new Lap Top computers, I wont say they arent needed, because they are, but, As of today, I have not heard any officer of the E Board announce to membership, We bought lap top computers with local money. It may be true that they dont need a vote to spend money, its just a common courtesy to report to members where or whats going on?


.

Every month a Financial Report is presented to and approved by the membership. Look at it and ask questions. Its your money.

The Lap tops are probably justified, most Locals get them as needed. The money is there to be spent in ways to benifit the members, its not a savings account. Once that money goes to the local the only real way you can get it back is through services. Ask who got the Laptops and what they needed them for-grievance tracking, letters, financial record keeping ect.

A better place to look for scrutiny is the phone bill. Look to see what it is and who has cell phones etc and ask about that since thats one of the charges they used against Butch. Otherwise I would not go on about expenditures and stay focused on the fact that they removed your President.

 

[mojo13]

A public forum is not the proper place to be discussing the suspension of an officer. The examples given above are not what Butch was charged with. MCI...get your facts straight.

 

[Buck]

A public forum is exactly that, a place to discuss things openly. When someone is in error it is expected that they be corrected. Remember while you refer to this as a public forum, there are rules set by the organization who runs this board. They are the only ones who determine content.

What country is this?

 

[Raptor]

It appears that Tulsa local 514 is not the only local with problems concerning officers, now local 530 is removing their president ,the TWU is literally coming apart at the seams.
How many officers will bite the dust before AMFA replaces the TWU ? it will be interesting but in the end I guess it won't really matter as we will all get brand new officers when AMFA removes the TWU.

AMFA NOW

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

A public forum is not the proper place to be discussing the suspension of an officer. The examples given above are not what Butch was charged with. MCI...get your facts straight.

The examples given above are not what Butch was charged with. MCI...get your facts straight


Excuse me............please refresh us, what exactly were the charges if not these?Did I leave out something? Its not true that the E Board suspended Butch for meeting one on one with management?
Article 16. Section 1 and 4j of Local 530 bylaws, It is the responsibility of the president to conduct all local and Executive board meetings?

Article 16of the TWU constitution and article 4D of the local bylaws, all officers of the local E Board should perform the duties as may be assigned to them by the E Board or membership

TWU constitution,page 48 Article 16 The president shall adhere to all decisions and directions of and be subject to the local Executive Board

The E Board was not upset that Butch endorsed another for labor council that the E Board did not want to endorse?

Did the E Board not state that Butch misused his cell phone?

Did the E Board in a letter to membership, a month after his suspension, accuse Butch of knowinly inviting 2 members from New York Local to come here knowing they were promoting "Dual Unionism"?

Did the E Board in theletter, boast that numerous times they tried to counsel Butch?

Your a member of the E BOard, tell me, Please what charges I missed? Please inform all of us, if these are not the charges, than what exactly were the charges?

I have the transcript, If you would like, I will read and post charges from that? minutes? questioned asked of Butch by his successor? Ask away and I will answer, or better yet, post here for all of us to see the real charges?

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

Our local bought new Lap Top computers, I wont say they arent needed, because they are, but, As of today, I have not heard any officer of the E Board announce to membership, We bought lap top computers with local money. It may be true that they dont need a vote to spend money, its just a common courtesy to report to members where or whats going on?


.

Every month a Financial Report is presented to and approved by the membership. Look at it and ask questions. Its your money.

The Lap tops are probably justified, most Locals get them as needed. The money is there to be spent in ways to benifit the members, its not a savings account. Once that money goes to the local the only real way you can get it back is through services. Ask who got the Laptops and what they needed them for-grievance tracking, letters, financial record keeping ect.

A better place to look for scrutiny is the phone bill. Look to see what it is and who has cell phones etc and ask about that since thats one of the charges they used against Butch. Otherwise I would not go on about expenditures and stay focused on the fact that they removed your President.

Thank You Bob, Since we are talking finances, is it ok within a local to use dues money to pay for cell phone and overage charges for a member, not elected to office, but is on a committee, not elected, but appointed?

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

It appears that Tulsa local 514 is not the only local with problems concerning officers, now local 530 is removing their president ,the TWU is literally coming apart at the seams.
How many officers will bite the dust before AMFA replaces the TWU ? it will be interesting but in the end I guess it won't really matter as we will all get brand new officers when AMFA removes the TWU


Raptor, My point is, what I hear most on these message boards are, the members are upset within their locals, same here also. I beleive the problems wihin locals will still exist no matter what union we belong to.
A name change is just that, We will still have the leaders in the local level representing us..........
While its true our local is not perfect, I will support our local and membership. Thats why I am outraged at what the E Board did to the Elected President that members voted to be our president
Its not the TWU coming apart at the seams, but is the locals of TWU. I dont agree with the E Board having the need, to be judgemental.

 

[Buck]

So you do not believe that a change in philosophy has any chance to work?

I would encourage to read the AMFA constitution and at least have an open mind. What is wrong with all of the mechanics and related belonging to their own union?

 

[MCI AFL-CIO]

What is wrong with all of the mechanics and related belonging to their own union?


Buck, UAW, represents all skill levels, mechanics, assembly, plant maintenace, Janitors, etc.
Harley Davidson, not sure, how many differnet unions represent the workers, 2? 3? ! union in particular, A paper union, what would a Paper union know about motorcycles to represent workers? Also IAM represents workforce at Harley Davidson. Also, The drivers at Harley do not belong to a truckdriver union?