Twa Seniority Lawsuit Dismissed

[s80dude]

Dude 80, I doupt that very much. ALL AFL-CIO unions have no regard for APFA.
If you think otherwise, you need to think twice. The largest UNION AFA has expressed their opinion to the staple job done to the TWA f/a's.

OK, you walk off your job and support the AFA f/a's in CHAOS. I want to see this. B.S. You guy's would STAPLE them in a New York minute if AMR decides to buy routes and gates from UA and US. And you would not be able to support a strike at UA or US. You are not part of their unity. Get it?

By the way your so called Union is not welcomed to the Coalition Of Flight Attendants....which by the way is represented by the largested Union AFA. Get a clue.

[post="205644"][/post]​

Please don't be hostile.

Regarding the Coalition of Flight Attendants, it is actually comprised of flight attendant unions from many different carriers. APFA, PFAA, AFA carriers, TWU, and IAM. They meet throughout the year to discuss and act on issues representing the work force. The "Coalition" is many unions, not just AFA.

You know as well as I do that if I walk off my job if United and UsAirways declare CHAOS, I will be terminated for participating in an illegal job action as I a not an AFA represented employee of UAL, ATA, US, or Hawaiian. Even AFA members at other carriers than the four mentioned would be terminated for doing the same.

You can be certain we will walk the picket line with these flight attendants to show our support, and I doubt they will turn us away.

I would be lying if I said I was thrilled with the way APFA has conducted and is conducting itself these past few years. Like it or not though, it is the my union, the only one I have ever belonged too, and the one that will represent me going forward. I will do what I need to do to support it. There is too much ambilvalence from our workforce as it is, so turning my back on the APFA is not an option.

 

[bradybyrnes]

Be careful what you wish for Proud......AA now has their scabs should you EVER complain about a crappy contract. The TWA f/a's should have received integration....especially after it was promised from the beginning. People in glass houses, yada yada yada. Hope this doesn't come back to bite you when the LCC's take over your airline and you get stapled.

[post="205131"][/post]​

Half of the TWA workforce are SCABS anyway. It would be no shock if they crossed. Once a SCAB, always a SCAB!!!!!!!!!

 

[galleyguy4u2]

Half of the TWA workforce are SCABS anyway. It would be no shock if they crossed. Once a SCAB, always a SCAB!!!!!!!!!

[post="205801"][/post]​

Brady, you don't know your facts. Most of the TWA f/a's were FULL TERM STRIKERS. Most of the 86 replacements are gone. And don't forget TWA hired many new f/a's 3yrs after the strikers were ALL RECALLED. So your SCAB comments are way off base.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

Brady, you don't know your facts. Most of the TWA f/a's were FULL TERM STRIKERS. Most of the 86 replacements are gone. And don't forget TWA hired many new f/a's 3yrs after the strikers were ALL RECALLED. So your SCAB comments are way off base.

[post="205805"][/post]​

I am happy to say that almost all of the former TWA flight attendants with whom I have had contact have had much more class and dignity than ever exhibited by this poster. My advice to fellow AA flight attendants...Don't think they are all like him/her.

 

[bradybyrnes]

Brady, you don't know your facts. Most of the TWA f/a's were FULL TERM STRIKERS. Most of the 86 replacements are gone. And don't forget TWA hired many new f/a's 3yrs after the strikers were ALL RECALLED. So your SCAB comments are way off base.

[post="205805"][/post]​

As I sit here on my layover in PHL I ponder what it will take to get people (TWA), to realize that they are fighting a lost cause. I and my fellow 22,000 native AAer's are not heartless, uneducated unionists. We have had many trials and tests here at AA (strike 1993) far before the purchase of TWA in bankruptcy. After reading the judges conclusion it is quite clear who is to blame for your lack of DOH. The IAM!! You as a group had to know that when they wanted you to waive your SCOPE clause you were putting your selves in a bad position. If you claim that many flight attendants were uneducated about what SCOPE meant, then it would have been a job that the IAM should have made priority one. Educating members what the possible outcome could be. At the end of the day you can appeal. I would expect nothing less. The end result will be the same. AA and the APFA will pool their resources together and will continue the fight and win again. The IAM sold you down the river. Please remember that they are AFL-CIO. Of course the IAM is going to try to fight. They need to cover up the fact that they failed to represent you in the best of circumstances. Why aren't you all angry at them? Why blame AA and APFA for your failure to see what SCOPE means. Take responsibility for your own actions. I truly hope that you can find peace in what will be the eventual outcome. You will have jobs here at AA, which in its current state is percarious. However, your DOH will be April 10, 2001. Not because of some greed by AA or APFA, but because the IAM knew TWA was going under, and your waiving your SCOPE was the only way AA was going to close the deal. Your union made the choice. Now find peace in that decision.

 

[jpwc50]

As I sit here on my layover in PHL I ponder what it will take to get people (TWA), to realize that they are fighting a lost cause. I and my fellow 22,000 native AAer's are not heartless, uneducated unionists. We have had many trials and tests here at AA (strike 1993) far before the purchase of TWA in bankruptcy. After reading the judges conclusion it is quite clear who is to blame for your lack of DOH. The IAM!! You as a group had to know that when they wanted you to waive your SCOPE clause you were putting your selves in a bad position. If you claim that many flight attendants were uneducated about what SCOPE meant, then it would have been a job that the IAM should have made priority one. Educating members what the possible outcome could be. At the end of the day you can appeal. I would expect nothing less. The end result will be the same. AA and the APFA will pool their resources together and will continue the fight and win again. The IAM sold you down the river. Please remember that they are AFL-CIO. Of course the IAM is going to try to fight. They need to cover up the fact that they failed to represent you in the best of circumstances. Why aren't you all angry at them? Why blame AA and APFA for your failure to see what SCOPE means. Take responsibility for your own actions. I truly hope that you can find peace in what will be the eventual outcome. You will have jobs here at AA, which in its current state is percarious. However, your DOH will be April 10, 2001. Not because of some greed by AA or APFA, but because the IAM knew TWA was going under, and your waiving your SCOPE was the only way AA was going to close the deal. Your union made the choice. Now find peace in that decision.

[post="205815"][/post]​

Yes the IAM waived the scope clause for the TWA F/A's but the fact of the matter is, either the IAM had to waive the Scope clause or the bankruptcy court would have thrown it out because that is what was dictated by AA/APFA in the terms of the prepackaged bankruptcy. Either way Scope would have been gone! Nothing is sacred in a bankruptcy court!

 

[okoge1027]

Why the TWA F/As believed they would have some seniority? Well, first APFA told TWAers they would not be stapled and second AA promised to use their reasonable best efforts to see a fair and equitable seniority integration took place and they promised to follow the recommendations of the fact finder they were to hire and to follow the procedures laid out by that fact finder. Those were conditions of purchase.

The judge has said that the RLA trumps a tort suit. It is likely it will be appealed. It isn't over.

I find it interesting you post in huge purple letters signifying your hatred of TWAers as identified by the contents of your post. Lovely to see and read of your hostility towards the TWA F/As. I gather you'll be one of those keeping the hatred alive...

[post="205125"][/post]​

Now, let's just accept Judge's decisions, move on and look to the future! You can accomplish more when you're positive and even live longer too!

 

[bradybyrnes]

Yes the IAM waived the scope clause for the TWA F/A's but the fact of the matter is, either the IAM had to waive the Scope clause or the bankruptcy court would have thrown it out because that is what was dictated by AA/APFA in the terms of the prepackaged bankruptcy. Either way Scope would have been gone! Nothing is sacred in a bankruptcy court!

[post="205834"][/post]​

This is exactly my point. If you were all aware of this at the time then why do you not except reality? Did you not suspect you might not get DOH seniority due to your waiving SCOPE. Why did TWA employees not say, No Way! My guess is because you were all aware that your airlines fate would be sealed if AA had not bought certain assests out of backruptcy court. When all the appeals are settled and done at the end of the day, one fact will prevail. The IAM/TWA flight attendants waived all seniority protections. No amount of denial will change that fact. The IAM AFL-CIO, sold TWA's flight attendants down the river. Nothing will change this fact. The sooner people realize that their fates were sealed on that fateful day the sooner they will begin to heal. Peace to all! Let the clarity and healing begin.

 

[twasilverbullet]

Brady, you don't know your facts. Most of the TWA f/a's were FULL TERM STRIKERS. Most of the 86 replacements are gone. And don't forget TWA hired many new f/a's 3yrs after the strikers were ALL RECALLED. So your SCAB comments are way off base.

[post="205805"][/post]​

You are 100% correct on this.

I am happy to say that almost all of the former TWA flight attendants with whom I have had contact have had much more class and dignity than ever exhibited by this poster. My advice to fellow AA flight attendants...Don't think they are all like him/her.

[post="205805"][/post]​

Why are you attacking Galleyguy for? He only told the truth, you make absolutely no sense. :down:

 

[L1011Ret]

The TWA F/As did not waive all seniority protections by giving up their right to an arbitrated settlement under Allegheny-Mohawk provisions. That is all they gave up, the right to have seniority adjudicated under Allegeheny-Mohawk procedures. Judge Gershon acknowledged that fact. The waiver of Allegheny-Mohawk was conditioned by AA's promises of a "fair and equitable" integration using the results of the facilitator's findings. AA did not keep its promise. Neither did APFA who told IAM representatives before the closing on 4/10/01 that TWAers would not be stapled.

 

[F/A TWAA]

The TWA F/As did not waive all seniority protections by giving up their right to an arbitrated settlement under Allegheny-Mohawk provisions. That is all they gave up, the right to have seniority adjudicated under Allegeheny-Mohawk procedures. Judge Gershon acknowledged that fact. The waiver of Allegheny-Mohawk was conditioned by AA's promises of a "fair and equitable" integration using the results of the facilitator's findings. AA did not keep its promise. Neither did APFA who told IAM representatives before the closing on 4/10/01 that TWAers would not be stapled.

[post="205902"][/post]​

L1011,
It dosen't matter how many times the truth is repeated. Some people will just choose to believe what they want in order to justify what was done. It's been said here many times........."just because you repeat it over and over, dosen't mean it's true".

TWA never had any intention of going into bankruptcy on it's own. Going into bankruptcy was just part of the package deal in order for AA to buy us.

It is my understanding that in lieu of the scope clause being waived, AA and APFA agreed to a "third party arbritation" of the seniority issue for the TWA F/As. That "agreement" (part of congressional testimony, by the way) was never honored by AA/APFA, and therefore was broken.......hence lies the basis for our lawsuit(s).

 

[L1011Ret]

Well, not quite F/A TWA. The promise was not for arbitration of the seniority issue, the process was for a facilitator to facilitate a process between APFA and IAM over seniority and a process to integrate the work groups. AA agreed to use its reasonable best efforts to see that that process took place and to abide by the results of that process. Then AA secretly met with APFA without IAM or the facilitator and signed the SIA. AA broke many of its promises, APFA only one that I am aware of and that was that there would be no stapling. In my mind, the greater liability lies with AA who made their promises to Congress and failed to uphold them.

 

[MCI transplant]

The TWA F/As did not waive all seniority protections by giving up their right to an arbitrated settlement under Allegheny-Mohawk provisions. That is all they gave up, the right to have seniority adjudicated under Allegeheny-Mohawk procedures. Judge Gershon acknowledged that fact. The waiver of Allegheny-Mohawk was conditioned by AA's promises of a "fair and equitable" integration using the results of the facilitator's findings. AA did not keep its promise. Neither did APFA who told IAM representatives before the closing on 4/10/01 that TWAers would not be stapled.

[post="205902"][/post]​

<_< I believe there is a lawsuit still pending on exactly that arguement!!

 

[aafsc]

Well, not quite F/A TWA. The promise was not for arbitration of the seniority issue, the process was for a facilitator to facilitate a process between APFA and IAM over seniority and a process to integrate the work groups. AA agreed to use its reasonable best efforts to see that that process took place and to abide by the results of that process. Then AA secretly met with APFA without IAM or the facilitator and signed the SIA. AA broke many of its promises, APFA only one that I am aware of and that was that there would be no stapling. In my mind, the greater liability lies with AA who made their promises to Congress and failed to uphold them.

[post="205915"][/post]​

I'm not a flight attendant, but didn't AA hire the facilitator but the APFA refused to even meet with the IAM? The APFA, along with the other unions, objected to the TWA/AA deal as soon as it was announced. What did you expect Carty and AA to do, go to APFA and say, "Please, Please, I beg of you, give the TWA flight attendants their TWA seniority so that they can fly the best trips in the AA system." The APFA, along with the other AA unions, had a legal obligation to protect their incumbant members. Carty could have offered his first born to the AA unions in exchange for letting the TWA people have their seniority and it would have made no difference. The AA unions and their members were furious over this deal. The only organization you might be successful in having a court victory over is the IAM. Did they make the right decisions (like waiving your labor protective provisions) while representing you? I suggest you look at the TWA pilots lawsuit. All counts against APA, AA, and TWA LLC. were dismissed. The only count that was not dismissed was the one against ALPA. As far as promises, AA can not guarantee jobs for life to anyone.

 

[aafsc]

This is exactly my point. If you were all aware of this at the time then why do you not except reality? Did you not suspect you might not get DOH seniority due to your waiving SCOPE. Why did TWA employees not say, No Way! My guess is because you were all aware that your airlines fate would be sealed if AA had not bought certain assests out of backruptcy court. When all the appeals are settled and done at the end of the day, one fact will prevail. The IAM/TWA flight attendants waived all seniority protections. No amount of denial will change that fact. The IAM AFL-CIO, sold TWA's flight attendants down the river. Nothing will change this fact. The sooner people realize that their fates were sealed on that fateful day the sooner they will begin to heal. Peace to all! Let the clarity and healing begin.

[post="205861"][/post]​

The plan was simple, agree to waive labor protective provisions so the TWA/AA deal could be consumated. Then after the deal closed, use the courts to try to reinstate the TWA employees' labor protective provisions. Did you notice how quiet the TWA people were from when the deal was announced until it closed on 4/9/01? Then after the deal was done it was, "WE DEMAND OUR SENIORITY" and "YOU LIED TO US". The reason they were quiet from 1/01-4/9/01 is because they knew TWA was about to liquidate and needed AA to keep them employed. Their strategy was to get the deal done first. And after the deal was done, then to go to the courts and try to get their TWA seniority back. I, along with all the other nAAtives knew this would happen from day 1. Now some will say that TWA was not about to liquidate. But I say look how fast TWA burned up the $200 million DIP financing they got from AA. So fast that AA had to wire them another $125 million to keep them afloat until the closing of the deal