tom horton 20 mill approved

[IORFA]

Did the USC say what the vote tally was for Tommy Boys severance? If not, how does anyone know what the unions said? For all we know the vote was 6-3. Majority rules, as that was their agreement from the begining. The unions could have wanted to throw his ass on the street and wanted to sue him for all the bonus money he took and didn't deserve. We don't know. To categorically say that the unions agreed to the 20 million is disingenuous and potentially false.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL at the main terminal in LGA are DL employees the shuttle employees over at MAT are contracted out.

And yet DL flies planes half way across the world to get overhauled or their interiors redone.

777s, 767s and A330s are outsourced.

The DL Shuttle operation at the MAT IS an RJ operation.

Since you've jumped in, perhaps you can tell us the hubs where other US airlines besides non-union DL have insourced regional carrier handling to mainline employees.... or the amount of insourced revenue done by unionized mechanics at US airlines.

YMMV.

which is why perceptions of the value of what a union can do compared to solid economic issues always varies.

 

[700UW]

Even when it was mainline it was outsourced, how did I know you were going to say that.

Lets see the E170s and 175s are express and handled by mainline ramp at US, and many outstations express is handled by mainline.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Since you've jumped in, perhaps you can tell us the hubs where other US airlines besides non-union DL have insourced regional carrier handling to mainline employees.... or the amount of insourced revenue done by unionized mechanics at US airlines.

this is the question that is on the table and you and others have repeatedly managed to avoid it... which I presume means the answer is not only zero but also why you want to focus on a 40 flight/day RJ operation.

BTW, I don't know when the DL Shuttle was outsourced BELOW WING (it is still an above wing DL station) but there were mainline people there for years after DL bought the operation from Pan Am.

Let's also remember that DL MAINLINE employees work hundreds of regional carrier flights at the main LGA terminals using the slots which US traded away to DL. IN fact, DL mainline employees work far more RJ flights at the main terminals at LGA than exist in total over at the MAT - by a factor of 2 or 3 times at least. Just a minor point of clarification that I'm sure you overlooked.

I'm headed to LAX at this very moment... I'll see if I can get a running tally on the number of mainline employees at other airlines working regional carrier flights... but you can help me out if you know the answer.

 

[700UW]

Still doesnt matter, the work was mainline and now outsourced, thats the bottom line.

 

[WorldTraveler]

ZERO. NADA.

That's how many unionized legacy carriers insource ramp work for their regional carrier flying at their hubs.... in contrast to the thousands of RJ flights handled by DL employees at their hubs. And that includes hundreds of RJ flights operated by DL mainline employees at DL's main terminals in LGA.

Talk about reality, not theory.

It also explains why the labor movement cannot make progress in increasing unionization in the US airline industry.
The people have voted and continue to do so.

 

[700UW]

I guess you cant read and comprehend, US MAINLINE works EXPRESS 170s and 175s in CLT.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and how many flights is that and in what other cities does that exist? E170/175 is a small portion of US' RJ operation. DL makes no distinction between type of RJ at the cities where mainline works the aircraft.. probably has to do with competing labor contracts, you think?

glad to hear that other carriers do in fact work large RJ flights w/ mainline personnel so again there is no evidence that either unionized or non-unionized carriers have a corner on protecting that work.

Swapping of work between regional and mainline employees is common which makes it pretty hard to complete a scorecard... but I'm happy to see one nonetheless.

The sheer numbers of what DL insources argues completely against the notion that DL outsources more work than other carriers.

And the biggest evidence is that DL is eliminating hundreds of RJs and replacing them with mainline aircraft - something that no other US airline has introduced a plan to do.

We're talking about DL employees flying and serving in the cabin as well.

Please let me know the plans any other US airlines have to remove RJs and replace them with mainline aircraft if I have missed the news.

 

[700UW]

Ok, how many 50 seaters are leaving the fleet and how man 717s are coming in?

 

[eolesen]

Trying to spin DL dumping more 50 seaters & replacing with mainline than anyone else totally ignores the fact that they had too many to begin with.

It's kind of like a guy who weighs 350 lbs and loses 40 lbs saying he's far more successful at losing weight than the guy who is 220 lbs and loses 20 lbs.

 

[FWAAA]

How the hell did a Horton Hate-Fest turn into yet another pissing match about how much maintenance and fleet service work Delta insources v outsources?

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

sounds a lot like walmart and though my dad is retired from dl he and i have always had our disagreements on union vs non union

Interesting post......my father was APA for 32 years and what he thought 10 years ago and what he thinks to day about the union having been able to step back a bit is quite different. Would love to hear more about how you and your father differ in your views------I apologize if its common knowledge here but are you employeed at AA?

My father has had the pleasure of spending time with guys like Crandal as they both enjoy retirement and I can say without a doubt that some AA management team mebers are just morons, but some were just doing their job of not giving the union all they wanted and to ensure the health of the company for the investors. Its their job, and a tough one, just like the mechanic responsible for making sure the planes work safely, the pilots making sure they fly safely, the FAs making sure customers are happy and safe and counter agents dealing with the mess we all know occurs on the ground----no one job is tougher than another, just different types of tough.

Problem is FA, mechanic, pilot, grounds crew and CEO all have to realize they are not created equal in a free market economy. Some people make more, some less. Some people, their jobs are no less important, but the more responsibility they have and the more rare their skill set, the more they will command. Tough concept for all of us to swallow.

Cheers,
AA777

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

How the hell did a Horton Hate-Fest turn into yet another pissing match about how much maintenance and fleet service work Delta insources v outsources?

Welcome to the Airline Forums

 

[WorldTraveler]

Trying to spin DL dumping more 50 seaters & replacing with mainline than anyone else totally ignores the fact that they had too many to begin with.

It's kind of like a guy who weighs 350 lbs and loses 40 lbs saying he's far more successful at losing weight than the guy who is 220 lbs and loses 20 lbs.

yet DL did a far better job of retaining domestic market share between 9/11 and today than any other legacy airline, even adjusting for mergers. And they managed to save more mainline jobs than any other carrier except for AA who had to go back for round two - and the final numbers won't be known for quite some time.

It's nice to say there were too much but it doesn't change the fact that there will be far fewer RJs flying at DL being replaced by more mainline...there are 88 717s coming and several hundred RJs leaving the fleet... the exact number directly attributable to the 717 deal is not entirely clear but there are still rumors that DL is close to an A321 order that would involve further removal of CRJs.
Also doesn't change that DL's small RJ operation will be smaller than any other US legacy airline after DL refleets.

How the hell did a Horton Hate-Fest turn into yet another pissing match about how much maintenance and fleet service work Delta insources v outsources?

I asked that question about a page ago w/ no explanation....

My father has had the pleasure of spending time with guys like Crandal as they both enjoy retirement and I can say without a doubt that some AA management team mebers are just morons, but some were just doing their job of not giving the union all they wanted and to ensure the health of the company for the investors. Its their job, and a tough one, just like the mechanic responsible for making sure the planes work safely, the pilots making sure they fly safely, the FAs making sure customers are happy and safe and counter agents dealing with the mess we all know occurs on the ground----no one job is tougher than another, just different types of tough.

Problem is FA, mechanic, pilot, grounds crew and CEO all have to realize they are not created equal in a free market economy. Some people make more, some less. Some people, their jobs are no less important, but the more responsibility they have and the more rare their skill set, the more they will command. Tough concept for all of us to swallow.

Cheers,
AA777

Even market based compensation does not have to involve execs taking huge payouts when other employees are being cut.... market based or not. THAT is why AA employees have been so upset

 

[eolesen]

WT, since you conveniently dodged all this....

1) RJ's being parked and mainline flying being added was a concession to ALPA in the contract they just agreed to with DL
2) the number of mainline jobs kept post-merger was entirely intended to just keep the unions at bay

You might want to spin it as altruistic, but it's not.