This is what you can expect if you sign a card
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On 7/8/2003 8:28:56 PM Bob Owens wrote:
On 7/8/2003 8:28:56 PM Bob Owens wrote:
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On 7/8/2003 6:43:46 PM Checking it Out wrote:
Bob Owens/
You never did answer why all the other groups at SWA make less than at AA except for mechanics.
And he NEVER will!!!
He just goes out and copies and pastes what ever information or half truths he feels is going to stir the pot. I asked him to post facts and current information that is not of tabloid nature. He can't. He does not know how. Like RV4 said, he is AA's best AMFA organizer at present. Keep up the good work Mr. CIO.....
On 7/8/2003 6:43:46 PM Checking it Out wrote:
Bob Owens/
You never did answer why all the other groups at SWA make less than at AA except for mechanics.
And he NEVER will!!!
He just goes out and copies and pastes what ever information or half truths he feels is going to stir the pot. I asked him to post facts and current information that is not of tabloid nature. He can't. He does not know how. Like RV4 said, he is AA's best AMFA organizer at present. Keep up the good work Mr. CIO.....
OP
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You never did answer why all the other groups at SWA make less than at AA except for mechanics.
At Southwest amfa did not negotiate the contract.
The mechanics at southwest earn more per hour with a 401k retirement I believe. Also they farmout the Heavy Maintenance.The TWU believes you should keep as many members employed as possible in these times. They do care more about the Individuals as a whole than amfa does. amfa''s philosphy is to give unlimited farmout rights to ensure two things.
a. To make sure a number of members are on layoff so a card drive cannot take place to replace them.
b. amfa is Managements Favorite Association. Management knows their To Stupid to understand how Language will effect things to come! And Management knows amfa is powerless to do anything about it.
TWU SOLIDARITY! Together we will Overcome.
At Southwest amfa did not negotiate the contract.
The mechanics at southwest earn more per hour with a 401k retirement I believe. Also they farmout the Heavy Maintenance.The TWU believes you should keep as many members employed as possible in these times. They do care more about the Individuals as a whole than amfa does. amfa''s philosphy is to give unlimited farmout rights to ensure two things.
a. To make sure a number of members are on layoff so a card drive cannot take place to replace them.
b. amfa is Managements Favorite Association. Management knows their To Stupid to understand how Language will effect things to come! And Management knows amfa is powerless to do anything about it.
TWU SOLIDARITY! Together we will Overcome.
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On 7/14/2003 5:23:31 AM Checking it Out wrote:
You never did answer why all the other groups at SWA make less than at AA except for mechanics.
At Southwest amfa did not negotiate the contract.
I beleive that I made that clear.
The mechanics at southwest earn more per hour with a 401k retirement I believe. Also they farmout the Heavy Maintenance.The TWU believes you should keep as many members employed as possible in these times. They do care more about the Individuals as a whole than amfa does. amfa's philosphy is to give unlimited farmout rights to ensure two things.
OK. So you are saying that a line mechanic in NY ,LAX or some other high cost area should take comfort in that fact that he is going to earn less and work more so that the company will keep more work in house at an overhaul base in the midwest? That instead of fighting to raise all boats that we should sink all of them a little, which will put us in the high cost areas under, so as to give the company our labor at a deep discount and work at rates that are acceptable in low cost areas because this increases the number of dues paying members for the union?
Following that type of logic why dont you just find out what they pay in Asia and have us all work for that? That this Win (for the company)-Win (for the TWU) but lose for those of us working as mechanics in high cost areas should just be considered an acceptable sacrifice on our part so that the company and the union can make more money? Is our pension worth a $5/hour difference in pay?Is the $10,500/ a year that we are making less made up in our pension? Doesnt SWA have a match to the 401K, and wont our pension be reduced by our lowered compensation?
What will your excuse be when SWA starts doing more overhaul in house? SWA is getting big enough where the economies of scale justify doing such work in house.
While the $5/hour is real and now, the pension is a promise that the TWU can just stand back and allow the company take during the next round of concessions like they did at Pan Am.
a. To make sure a number of members are on layoff so a card drive cannot take place to replace them.
Is that why we gave concessions that put 1300 of our fellow mechanics on the street?
b. amfa is Managements Favorite Association. Management knows their To Stupid to understand how Language will effect things to come! And Management knows amfa is powerless to do anything about it.
Ah yes and we saw how powerful the TWU and all the other affiliated unions were at protecting their members as they all cowered in fear over the airlines threats instead of uniting and fighting.
The only time the unions came together was to give concessions and picket for the government to provide economic aid for the airlines. Are you guys so stupid as to think that the government could allow over half of our air transportation system to cease operations?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Together we will Overcome.
By the way its "TOO stupid" not "to stupid"!
What's the excuse with the flight attendants?
Why does the TWU represented SWA make less than AA?
It seems if you want to make less, the TWU is the way to go. Whether you work for a money maker or loser the TWU apparently will make sure that you make less than other workers doing the same job!
Basically your answer is that line mechanics should be happy to do without just so overhaul can get a little more than market rate without having to fight for it. I have no problem with trying to keep overhaul in our bargaining unit however there should be considerations in place to balance the scales a bit. Such brotherly consideration is obviously not being preached to overhaul nor do they seem be be made aware of the fact that line guys are working at a deep discount so that they can enjoy a higher standard of living than most of their local peers. Most companies would not pay the same rate in the Midwest or Mexico or Asia that they would pay on the two US coasts.
Normally you preach "Stregnth in numbers". That usually translates into more favorable terms for all, but apparently here you are saying that in order to keep the numbers high we must agree to less favorable terms for all, some more so than others. Dont you see the contradiction? Where is the "stregnth in numbers"? The only place where I can see it is in the Line vs overhaul, where overhaul can take away shift premiums and other things that the line needs and vote for concessionary contracts that will still leave them higher paid than most of their peers. In our case the stregnth in numbers works to the company's advantage, not the workers. Thats a shame, and its due to sellouts such as yourself.
The TWU has repeatedly failed to fight for guys in the high cost areas. Guys such as yourself preach "Solidarity" on the one hand then basically say "Shut up and sit down because majority rules and overhaul is the majority" on the other. If the needs of the minority are ignored and overwhelmed by the majority then how can you ever expect solidarity? If the minority is suffering hardships while others are not where does the moral justification for solidarity come from? Where or what is the commonality of purpose?
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On 7/14/2003 5:23:31 AM Checking it Out wrote:
You never did answer why all the other groups at SWA make less than at AA except for mechanics.
At Southwest amfa did not negotiate the contract.
I beleive that I made that clear.
The mechanics at southwest earn more per hour with a 401k retirement I believe. Also they farmout the Heavy Maintenance.The TWU believes you should keep as many members employed as possible in these times. They do care more about the Individuals as a whole than amfa does. amfa's philosphy is to give unlimited farmout rights to ensure two things.
OK. So you are saying that a line mechanic in NY ,LAX or some other high cost area should take comfort in that fact that he is going to earn less and work more so that the company will keep more work in house at an overhaul base in the midwest? That instead of fighting to raise all boats that we should sink all of them a little, which will put us in the high cost areas under, so as to give the company our labor at a deep discount and work at rates that are acceptable in low cost areas because this increases the number of dues paying members for the union?
Following that type of logic why dont you just find out what they pay in Asia and have us all work for that? That this Win (for the company)-Win (for the TWU) but lose for those of us working as mechanics in high cost areas should just be considered an acceptable sacrifice on our part so that the company and the union can make more money? Is our pension worth a $5/hour difference in pay?Is the $10,500/ a year that we are making less made up in our pension? Doesnt SWA have a match to the 401K, and wont our pension be reduced by our lowered compensation?
What will your excuse be when SWA starts doing more overhaul in house? SWA is getting big enough where the economies of scale justify doing such work in house.
While the $5/hour is real and now, the pension is a promise that the TWU can just stand back and allow the company take during the next round of concessions like they did at Pan Am.
a. To make sure a number of members are on layoff so a card drive cannot take place to replace them.
Is that why we gave concessions that put 1300 of our fellow mechanics on the street?
b. amfa is Managements Favorite Association. Management knows their To Stupid to understand how Language will effect things to come! And Management knows amfa is powerless to do anything about it.
Ah yes and we saw how powerful the TWU and all the other affiliated unions were at protecting their members as they all cowered in fear over the airlines threats instead of uniting and fighting.
The only time the unions came together was to give concessions and picket for the government to provide economic aid for the airlines. Are you guys so stupid as to think that the government could allow over half of our air transportation system to cease operations?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Together we will Overcome.
By the way its "TOO stupid" not "to stupid"!
What's the excuse with the flight attendants?
Why does the TWU represented SWA make less than AA?
It seems if you want to make less, the TWU is the way to go. Whether you work for a money maker or loser the TWU apparently will make sure that you make less than other workers doing the same job!
Basically your answer is that line mechanics should be happy to do without just so overhaul can get a little more than market rate without having to fight for it. I have no problem with trying to keep overhaul in our bargaining unit however there should be considerations in place to balance the scales a bit. Such brotherly consideration is obviously not being preached to overhaul nor do they seem be be made aware of the fact that line guys are working at a deep discount so that they can enjoy a higher standard of living than most of their local peers. Most companies would not pay the same rate in the Midwest or Mexico or Asia that they would pay on the two US coasts.
Normally you preach "Stregnth in numbers". That usually translates into more favorable terms for all, but apparently here you are saying that in order to keep the numbers high we must agree to less favorable terms for all, some more so than others. Dont you see the contradiction? Where is the "stregnth in numbers"? The only place where I can see it is in the Line vs overhaul, where overhaul can take away shift premiums and other things that the line needs and vote for concessionary contracts that will still leave them higher paid than most of their peers. In our case the stregnth in numbers works to the company's advantage, not the workers. Thats a shame, and its due to sellouts such as yourself.
The TWU has repeatedly failed to fight for guys in the high cost areas. Guys such as yourself preach "Solidarity" on the one hand then basically say "Shut up and sit down because majority rules and overhaul is the majority" on the other. If the needs of the minority are ignored and overwhelmed by the majority then how can you ever expect solidarity? If the minority is suffering hardships while others are not where does the moral justification for solidarity come from? Where or what is the commonality of purpose?
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The TWU has repeatedly failed to fight for guys in the high cost areas. Guys such as yourself preach "Solidarity" on the one hand then basically say "Shut up and sit down because majority rules and overhaul is the majority" on the other. If the needs of the minority are ignored and overwhelmed by the majority then how can you ever expect solidarity? If the minority is suffering hardships while others are not where does the moral justification for solidarity come from? Where or what is the commonality of purpose?
I believe you have Line Differential Pay and Flexable Starting rates!
If I understand you! Your beliefs is to have the Minority dictate to the Majority! So You Don''t care and are willing to #### on your Union Brothers and Sisters to achieve your Ultimate goal and get rid of the Maintenace Bases? If you would Quit looking on the darkside, you would see the TWU has been and will continuing to represent us all!
TWU SOLIDARITY!
I believe you have Line Differential Pay and Flexable Starting rates!
If I understand you! Your beliefs is to have the Minority dictate to the Majority! So You Don''t care and are willing to #### on your Union Brothers and Sisters to achieve your Ultimate goal and get rid of the Maintenace Bases? If you would Quit looking on the darkside, you would see the TWU has been and will continuing to represent us all!
TWU SOLIDARITY!
OP
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THE INFAMOUS LAWYERS
Amfa boasts about it''s use of a law firm during it''s raids on legitimate unions. They would like you to believe that the firm they use, currently called Seham, Seham, Meltz and Peterson is going to look out for your interests. But history tells a different story.
The Sehams, father and son Martin and Lee Seham, are only moonlighting as amfa''s general counsel. They spend the rest of their time representing airline management against workers. amfa does not see a conflict of interest in this, but any intelligent person would be able to. Do you want your union representative to work three days a week as your supervisor and discipline and fire people, and then spend two days a week as a steward representing you against his own colleagues?
Allied Pilots Association
This kind of conflict breeds the type of ineffectiveness that the Seham''s displayed as the general counsel of the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent union representing American Airlines Pilots. When they were replaced as general counsel, amfa national director O.V. Delle Femine sent a letter to APA criticizing their action. APA answered Delle''s letter by detailing just some of the Seham''s failure while employed by APA. That letter is available here. It is obvious who benefited from the Seham''s being APA''s general counsel, and it was American Airline, not the pilots union.
Now that the Seham''s have been replace at APA, they apparently have decided that they didn''t do enough damage to the pilots union. So they have joined forces with the American Independent Cockpit Alliance, a splinter group of American Airlines Pilots that are trying to undermine APA by promoting that pilots withdraw from that union. Check out their legal counsel and administrator, the same as amfa''s. This website has allot of the same information that you find on the website of the National Right To Work Foundation.
Fire At Will
An attorney from the Seham''s law firm helped to write a book called "Fire At Will- Terminating Your Employees Legally". An excerpt that shows how an employer should deal with union organizers is shown here. There is no way any true union would be associated with a law firm that participated in a publication such as this. Yet amfa still claims that this law firm will look out for your interests. But how could you ever trust anyone who plays for both teams at the same time?
Seham - For the Company
Don''t get the idea that the Seham''s only work behind the scenes to help management. They have represented management directly in negotiations as well as arbitration cases against union members. Here is a copy of an arbitration case where the Seham''s were used by Varig Airlines against a worker. Then there is a case where a company was charged by a union for unfair labor practices, and the Seham''s were there to defend them again.
We also recently received a copy of a page from the IAM/Varig agreement, where it clearly shows that the Seham''s negotiated the contract for the company. Take a minute and think...what have the Seham''s ever done for any union. They have never accomplished anything for amfa except high legal bills (which it can not pay), and their tenure at the Allied Pilots Association referenced above ended in the Seham''s being dismissed because of their pro-company negotiating stand.
Alaska Airlines
Amfa is currently receiving allot of flack from it''s members because of it''s failure to have lawyers at it''s current negotiations with Alaska Airlines as promised during it''s raid on that carrier. It looks like the Alaska mechanics and related are only the latest in a 30 years string of disappointed members who have been taken in by amfa''s lies only to be shaken by the reality that a real estate salesman is negotiating for them
Cleared for Takeoff
Cleared For Takeoff, Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation, is a book published in 1988 that discusses many aspects of labor relations in our industry. Amfa attorney Martin Seham contributed to the book, and actually discusses his involvement in a union busting campaign at El Al Airlines where union members were encouraged to cross picket lines. El Al, with Mr. Seham as it''s chief negotiator, imposed work rules that eliminated union jobs. Read Mr. Seham''s own words.
Amfa boasts about it''s use of a law firm during it''s raids on legitimate unions. They would like you to believe that the firm they use, currently called Seham, Seham, Meltz and Peterson is going to look out for your interests. But history tells a different story.
The Sehams, father and son Martin and Lee Seham, are only moonlighting as amfa''s general counsel. They spend the rest of their time representing airline management against workers. amfa does not see a conflict of interest in this, but any intelligent person would be able to. Do you want your union representative to work three days a week as your supervisor and discipline and fire people, and then spend two days a week as a steward representing you against his own colleagues?
Allied Pilots Association
This kind of conflict breeds the type of ineffectiveness that the Seham''s displayed as the general counsel of the Allied Pilots Association (APA), the independent union representing American Airlines Pilots. When they were replaced as general counsel, amfa national director O.V. Delle Femine sent a letter to APA criticizing their action. APA answered Delle''s letter by detailing just some of the Seham''s failure while employed by APA. That letter is available here. It is obvious who benefited from the Seham''s being APA''s general counsel, and it was American Airline, not the pilots union.
Now that the Seham''s have been replace at APA, they apparently have decided that they didn''t do enough damage to the pilots union. So they have joined forces with the American Independent Cockpit Alliance, a splinter group of American Airlines Pilots that are trying to undermine APA by promoting that pilots withdraw from that union. Check out their legal counsel and administrator, the same as amfa''s. This website has allot of the same information that you find on the website of the National Right To Work Foundation.
Fire At Will
An attorney from the Seham''s law firm helped to write a book called "Fire At Will- Terminating Your Employees Legally". An excerpt that shows how an employer should deal with union organizers is shown here. There is no way any true union would be associated with a law firm that participated in a publication such as this. Yet amfa still claims that this law firm will look out for your interests. But how could you ever trust anyone who plays for both teams at the same time?
Seham - For the Company
Don''t get the idea that the Seham''s only work behind the scenes to help management. They have represented management directly in negotiations as well as arbitration cases against union members. Here is a copy of an arbitration case where the Seham''s were used by Varig Airlines against a worker. Then there is a case where a company was charged by a union for unfair labor practices, and the Seham''s were there to defend them again.
We also recently received a copy of a page from the IAM/Varig agreement, where it clearly shows that the Seham''s negotiated the contract for the company. Take a minute and think...what have the Seham''s ever done for any union. They have never accomplished anything for amfa except high legal bills (which it can not pay), and their tenure at the Allied Pilots Association referenced above ended in the Seham''s being dismissed because of their pro-company negotiating stand.
Alaska Airlines
Amfa is currently receiving allot of flack from it''s members because of it''s failure to have lawyers at it''s current negotiations with Alaska Airlines as promised during it''s raid on that carrier. It looks like the Alaska mechanics and related are only the latest in a 30 years string of disappointed members who have been taken in by amfa''s lies only to be shaken by the reality that a real estate salesman is negotiating for them
Cleared for Takeoff
Cleared For Takeoff, Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation, is a book published in 1988 that discusses many aspects of labor relations in our industry. Amfa attorney Martin Seham contributed to the book, and actually discusses his involvement in a union busting campaign at El Al Airlines where union members were encouraged to cross picket lines. El Al, with Mr. Seham as it''s chief negotiator, imposed work rules that eliminated union jobs. Read Mr. Seham''s own words.
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On 7/14/2003 7:56:37 PM Checking it Out wrote:
It is obvious who benefited from the Seham's being APA's general counsel, and it was American Airline, not the pilots union.
You mean like how the TWU recently gave "more than adequate" (Jim Littles words) concessions to the AA?
We also recently received a copy of a page from the IAM/Varig agreement, where it clearly shows that the Seham's negotiated the contract for the company. Take a minute and think...what have the Seham's ever done for any union. They have never accomplished anything for amfa except high legal bills (which it can not pay), and their tenure at the Allied Pilots Association referenced above ended in the Seham's being dismissed because of their pro-company negotiating stand.
Actually there is a TWU member at JFK who got his job back, with pay through Seham. I'm sure that you are aware of this case.
Amfa is currently receiving allot of flack from it's members because of it's failure to have lawyers at it's current negotiations with Alaska Airlines as promised during it's raid on that carrier. It looks like the Alaska mechanics and related are only the latest in a 30 years string of disappointed members who have been taken in by amfa's lies only to be shaken by the reality that a real estate salesman is negotiating for them
Has AMFA ever been decertified by its members at any carrier?
Cleared For Takeoff, Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation, is a book published in 1988 that discusses many aspects of labor relations in our industry. Amfa attorney Martin Seham contributed to the book, and actually discusses his involvement in a union busting campaign at El Al Airlines where union members were encouraged to cross picket lines. El Al, with Mr. Seham as it's chief negotiator, imposed work rules that eliminated union jobs. Read Mr. Seham's own words.
Didnt we just agree to work rule changes such as the elimination of vacation and sick time that helps the company eliminate jobs?
I believe that Seham is hired by Delle Femme, if the members decide that they are unhappy with Sehams performance and Delle does not get rid of him, then the members can get rid of Delle. Tell me how can we get rid of Luby or Rosen or Hall or Little or Yignst or Gless?
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On 7/14/2003 7:56:37 PM Checking it Out wrote:
It is obvious who benefited from the Seham's being APA's general counsel, and it was American Airline, not the pilots union.
You mean like how the TWU recently gave "more than adequate" (Jim Littles words) concessions to the AA?
We also recently received a copy of a page from the IAM/Varig agreement, where it clearly shows that the Seham's negotiated the contract for the company. Take a minute and think...what have the Seham's ever done for any union. They have never accomplished anything for amfa except high legal bills (which it can not pay), and their tenure at the Allied Pilots Association referenced above ended in the Seham's being dismissed because of their pro-company negotiating stand.
Actually there is a TWU member at JFK who got his job back, with pay through Seham. I'm sure that you are aware of this case.
Amfa is currently receiving allot of flack from it's members because of it's failure to have lawyers at it's current negotiations with Alaska Airlines as promised during it's raid on that carrier. It looks like the Alaska mechanics and related are only the latest in a 30 years string of disappointed members who have been taken in by amfa's lies only to be shaken by the reality that a real estate salesman is negotiating for them
Has AMFA ever been decertified by its members at any carrier?
Cleared For Takeoff, Airline Labor Relations Since Deregulation, is a book published in 1988 that discusses many aspects of labor relations in our industry. Amfa attorney Martin Seham contributed to the book, and actually discusses his involvement in a union busting campaign at El Al Airlines where union members were encouraged to cross picket lines. El Al, with Mr. Seham as it's chief negotiator, imposed work rules that eliminated union jobs. Read Mr. Seham's own words.
Didnt we just agree to work rule changes such as the elimination of vacation and sick time that helps the company eliminate jobs?
I believe that Seham is hired by Delle Femme, if the members decide that they are unhappy with Sehams performance and Delle does not get rid of him, then the members can get rid of Delle. Tell me how can we get rid of Luby or Rosen or Hall or Little or Yignst or Gless?
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Keeping Posting your Jibberish CIO.
One Airline after another keeps having the Mechanic and Related group choose AMFA.
If AMFA is as bad as you like to claim, why do Mechanic keep chosing AMFA instead of Catch All Industrial Unions?
What is the current TWU Organizing Card Count at Northwest or any of the other AMFA represented carriers?
What?
You mean you cannot successfully peddle your concessions for jobs programs at those airlines?
Why is that?
One Airline after another keeps having the Mechanic and Related group choose AMFA.
If AMFA is as bad as you like to claim, why do Mechanic keep chosing AMFA instead of Catch All Industrial Unions?
What is the current TWU Organizing Card Count at Northwest or any of the other AMFA represented carriers?
What?
You mean you cannot successfully peddle your concessions for jobs programs at those airlines?
Why is that?
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On 7/14/2003 7:52:35 PM Checking it Out wrote:
I believe you have Line Differential Pay and Flexable Starting rates!
Line differential amounts to less than 2%. This is hardly enough.
Flex starting rates. I'm glad you brought that up. Who decides whether or not "Flex rates are used?
The company, at its 'sole' discretion decides.
So in other words the TWU negotiated a wage that is so low that in certain areas of the country they could not get anyone to take the job, the union then allows the company, at its sole discretion, to deviate from the low wage that they put in place in order to get people on payroll.
"Flex Rates" are a disgrace and another example what a disgraceful job this union has done in representing its members. The fact that the company at its discretion raises its rates just so they can get people tells us that the union agreed to a wage that is too low. No self respecting union would brag that it negotiated a wage that was so low that the company, at its own discretion had to raise it to get people to take the job.
No self respecting union would ever agree to let the company alter its pay scales because they could not get workers. A real union would say"You got the numbers you wanted, now live with it or we will reopen this item for renegotiation". No self respecting union would allow the company to raise and lower starting wages as it sees fit.
If I understand you!
You dont!
Your beliefs is to have the Minority dictate to the Majority!
No not at all, but if you guys are willing to give everything back and we are not then maybe you should allow the contract to let you guys work for less while we keep what we need. You guys insist that we take whatever cuts you take, but despite the <2% Line premium these cuts hit us a lot harder than they do you, and basically we are taking them to save your job. I dont want to dictate to you, I'm just sick of you guys dictating to us with no regard for the economic difficulties we face.
So You Don't care and are willing to #### on your Union Brothers and Sisters to achieve your Ultimate goal and get rid of the Maintenace Bases?
Why are you such a moron?
How many times do I have to tell you that I dont want to "#### on" anybody, I just dont want you guys to "#### on" us! I would be perfectly willing to strike to protect overhaul, but I resent the fact that Overhaul forces us to give away everything without a fight because despite the concessions they know that they are still doing pretty good. I believe that the majority of Tulsa and the other overhaul bases would agree to a more realistic differential for us guys in the high cost areas but idiots like you, who could care less about us, block it. Look at what Randy McDonald proposed, taking away the MRT! What kind of a self centered #### would try to take away the less than 2% differential guys working nights get? Even TARGET gives a $2.50 differential for working nights, indoors stocking shelves! Guys who are stuck on nights suffer from many ailments and have an increased risk of Heart disease and cancer due to the stress and hormonal imbalances caused by working nights, and your boy wanted to take away the paltry $20 per week that they get for this?
The fact is that conditions on the line, not only the cost of living, are a lot different than overhaul. Its safe to say that more than likely overhaul still gets 5 holidays, a day off with pay. Line guys more than likely get no holidays, they have to work. All they get extra for working eight hours on a Holiday is four hours extra pay. Four hours pay for eight hours of work, on a holiday where everyone else is enjoying themselves. We rejected this and many other concessions by a wide majority, but it was forced on us by overhaul, so who is "shitting on" whom?
If you would Quit looking on the darkside,
I look at everyside, maybe you should do the same.
you would see the TWU has been and will continue to represent us all!
I wish that were true.
TWU SOLIDARITY!
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On 7/14/2003 7:52:35 PM Checking it Out wrote:
I believe you have Line Differential Pay and Flexable Starting rates!
Line differential amounts to less than 2%. This is hardly enough.
Flex starting rates. I'm glad you brought that up. Who decides whether or not "Flex rates are used?
The company, at its 'sole' discretion decides.
So in other words the TWU negotiated a wage that is so low that in certain areas of the country they could not get anyone to take the job, the union then allows the company, at its sole discretion, to deviate from the low wage that they put in place in order to get people on payroll.
"Flex Rates" are a disgrace and another example what a disgraceful job this union has done in representing its members. The fact that the company at its discretion raises its rates just so they can get people tells us that the union agreed to a wage that is too low. No self respecting union would brag that it negotiated a wage that was so low that the company, at its own discretion had to raise it to get people to take the job.
No self respecting union would ever agree to let the company alter its pay scales because they could not get workers. A real union would say"You got the numbers you wanted, now live with it or we will reopen this item for renegotiation". No self respecting union would allow the company to raise and lower starting wages as it sees fit.
If I understand you!
You dont!
Your beliefs is to have the Minority dictate to the Majority!
No not at all, but if you guys are willing to give everything back and we are not then maybe you should allow the contract to let you guys work for less while we keep what we need. You guys insist that we take whatever cuts you take, but despite the <2% Line premium these cuts hit us a lot harder than they do you, and basically we are taking them to save your job. I dont want to dictate to you, I'm just sick of you guys dictating to us with no regard for the economic difficulties we face.
So You Don't care and are willing to #### on your Union Brothers and Sisters to achieve your Ultimate goal and get rid of the Maintenace Bases?
Why are you such a moron?
How many times do I have to tell you that I dont want to "#### on" anybody, I just dont want you guys to "#### on" us! I would be perfectly willing to strike to protect overhaul, but I resent the fact that Overhaul forces us to give away everything without a fight because despite the concessions they know that they are still doing pretty good. I believe that the majority of Tulsa and the other overhaul bases would agree to a more realistic differential for us guys in the high cost areas but idiots like you, who could care less about us, block it. Look at what Randy McDonald proposed, taking away the MRT! What kind of a self centered #### would try to take away the less than 2% differential guys working nights get? Even TARGET gives a $2.50 differential for working nights, indoors stocking shelves! Guys who are stuck on nights suffer from many ailments and have an increased risk of Heart disease and cancer due to the stress and hormonal imbalances caused by working nights, and your boy wanted to take away the paltry $20 per week that they get for this?
The fact is that conditions on the line, not only the cost of living, are a lot different than overhaul. Its safe to say that more than likely overhaul still gets 5 holidays, a day off with pay. Line guys more than likely get no holidays, they have to work. All they get extra for working eight hours on a Holiday is four hours extra pay. Four hours pay for eight hours of work, on a holiday where everyone else is enjoying themselves. We rejected this and many other concessions by a wide majority, but it was forced on us by overhaul, so who is "shitting on" whom?
If you would Quit looking on the darkside,
I look at everyside, maybe you should do the same.
you would see the TWU has been and will continue to represent us all!
I wish that were true.
TWU SOLIDARITY!
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Dave,
That is truly an impressive letter that you posted regarding outsourcing. So tell me, who is AMFA lobbying their concerns to? Santa Clause? Surely it''s not the same senator who made you AMFA pukes take the last lies about working with him off of your AMFA website. Let''s see...who proposed the changes and testified before congress about foreign maintenance? UM...NOT AMFA! Oh, lest you forget, it was the AFL-CIO and the TTD. Both of whom are affiliated with the TWU! You and your boys may very well be against sending jobs overseas. You just can''t tell by the contracts you sign. The Northwest contract was the main illustration used to make the argument for the need to change the law. (check the congressional records!) You guys don''t get it. You say "lay people off instead of cost us money", the thing is, without the AFL-CIO''s help, there is no chance for those jobs ever to come back! So despite AMFA''s obvious farm-out language blunders, the TWU backed AFL-CIO is once again trying to save the jobs AMFA couldn''t care less about! VOTE FOR AMFA SO WE CAN SEND YOUR WORK OVERSEAS!! You are selling your goods with lies and then relying on the AFL-CIO to save your butts because AMFA certainly has no power or respect in Washington! Oh, don''t forget, your AMFA represented Alaska Airlines leads the entire industry by a large margin in work farmed out! That''s a heck of a deal, where do I sign!?!
That is truly an impressive letter that you posted regarding outsourcing. So tell me, who is AMFA lobbying their concerns to? Santa Clause? Surely it''s not the same senator who made you AMFA pukes take the last lies about working with him off of your AMFA website. Let''s see...who proposed the changes and testified before congress about foreign maintenance? UM...NOT AMFA! Oh, lest you forget, it was the AFL-CIO and the TTD. Both of whom are affiliated with the TWU! You and your boys may very well be against sending jobs overseas. You just can''t tell by the contracts you sign. The Northwest contract was the main illustration used to make the argument for the need to change the law. (check the congressional records!) You guys don''t get it. You say "lay people off instead of cost us money", the thing is, without the AFL-CIO''s help, there is no chance for those jobs ever to come back! So despite AMFA''s obvious farm-out language blunders, the TWU backed AFL-CIO is once again trying to save the jobs AMFA couldn''t care less about! VOTE FOR AMFA SO WE CAN SEND YOUR WORK OVERSEAS!! You are selling your goods with lies and then relying on the AFL-CIO to save your butts because AMFA certainly has no power or respect in Washington! Oh, don''t forget, your AMFA represented Alaska Airlines leads the entire industry by a large margin in work farmed out! That''s a heck of a deal, where do I sign!?!
OP
Checking it Out
Veteran
- Apr 3, 2003
- 1,702
- 0
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #116
Jake makes a lot of Sense!
Bob, do you mean the McCormick/Seham Associations do not have long term contracts with amfa? I believe amfa is so far in debt to them it will be a long time to pay them off. and who normally is present at the amfa rallies?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Learn the truth and you will see who is the real Union!
Bob, do you mean the McCormick/Seham Associations do not have long term contracts with amfa? I believe amfa is so far in debt to them it will be a long time to pay them off. and who normally is present at the amfa rallies?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Learn the truth and you will see who is the real Union!
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On 7/15/2003 6:31:29 AM Checking it Out wrote:
Jake makes a lot of Sense!
Bob, do you mean the McCormick/Seham Associations do not have long term contracts with amfa? I believe amfa is so far in debt to them it will be a long time to pay them off. and who normally is present at the amfa rallies?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Learn the truth and you will see who is the real Union!
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I dont know what they owe them just as I dont know what the TWU owes Luby and Rosen. I do know that both times that I've been to court with the TWU they had to hire other lawyers to do the case, so why are we paying these guys? On 7/15/2003 6:31:29 AM Checking it Out wrote:
Jake makes a lot of Sense!
Bob, do you mean the McCormick/Seham Associations do not have long term contracts with amfa? I believe amfa is so far in debt to them it will be a long time to pay them off. and who normally is present at the amfa rallies?
TWU SOLIDARITY! Learn the truth and you will see who is the real Union!
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Over the years I think I've been to four AMFA informational meetings. One in Dallas, one in Tulsa and two in NY. Twice Seham was present, twice he was not if that is what you are asking.
If you have any "thruths" please, share them.
- Aug 20, 2002
- 7,319
- 1,555
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On 7/15/2003 9:15:55 AM AAmech wrote:
Sure lets give mechanics in the "High Cost" areas more money. As long as Mechanics in "Hardship" areas like TUL also receive a premium!
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TUL a "Hardship" area? Could you explain what is hard about surviving in TUL?On 7/15/2003 9:15:55 AM AAmech wrote:
Sure lets give mechanics in the "High Cost" areas more money. As long as Mechanics in "Hardship" areas like TUL also receive a premium!
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( I am employed in TUL )
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On 7/15/2003 9:15:55 AM AAmech wrote:
Sure lets give mechanics in the "High Cost" areas more money. As long as Mechanics in "Hardship" areas like TUL also receive a premium!
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On 7/15/2003 9:15:55 AM AAmech wrote:
Sure lets give mechanics in the "High Cost" areas more money. As long as Mechanics in "Hardship" areas like TUL also receive a premium!
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I have no problem with that, as long as you guys are willing to push for more, unfortunately you guys are always willing to settle for less. And you take the position that if its good enough for you, its good enough for us. Well its not.
Look if you guys want to make a NY based wage, thats fine by me, the problem is you guys force us in NY to live on a Tulsa based wage and get insulted when we try to push for more for us. Well we need more, if you guys are willing to settle for less then why do you object to us trying to get a livable wage for us?
