The offer

[FrequentFlierCA]

There's a gap in logic here with regard to the TWU. You guys constantly lambast it for lack of accountability (fair enough) but when it takes a stand and doesn't roll over for the company, you still go on the attack. I don't get it.

It won't surprise many of you but I think they should have been able to come to an agreement. TWU left real money hanging out there at a time when companies are shedding jobs by tens of thousands and, in the airline industry, traffic (especially premium) continues its decline in parallel to GDP.

I agree with eolesen in that I expected worse. Motorola's pension freezing this week is just another example of worse things to come: http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/17/news/compa...on=money_latest

 

[TWU informer]

There is HUGE difference in the two positions.

Union position alllows for member to stay on current pension plan.

Company demands everyone get off the current plan.

Read the proposals first and then make comments about how close those positions are.

Both Union and Company final proposals are concessions and are far from even cost neutral. The Union's final positions are NOT taking a stand and are instead further rolling over.

Anybody that thinks trading Defined Pensions and Retiree Medical for a three small one-time bonus payments is a fair contract or not so bad deal is an absolute fool and very close to defined idiot.

 

[Bob Owens]

TWU left real money hanging out there at a time when companies are shedding jobs by tens of thousands and, in the airline industry, traffic (especially premium) continues its decline in parallel to GDP.

The airlines already shed their jobs-over 24100 of them. If they shed anymore they would have to cancell more flights.

in the airline industry, traffic (especially premium) continues its decline in parallel to GDP.

Yea but the decline is not nearly as fast as the decline in the price of fuel. Thats why despite the bad economic news everywhere else the projections for the airlines isnt bad.

 

[eolesen]

How can anyone think this is a good idea or "Not as bad as expected"?

Did I say it was a good idea, Dave?

No. I said it wasn't as bad as I expected. I'm shocked the company was willing to offer something other than Medigap, especially when you consider the fact there's a Democrat controlled Congress and a Democrat administration who are both poised to offer nationalized health care... If there's subsidized health care for all, what incentive is there for the company to try and offer something better?


I've said it before, and I'll say it again --- industrial unionism is about to go thru a serious watershed event with the potential GM and/or Chrysler bankruptcy(s).

If you think that won't have an impact on airline workers, think again. Every change that happens at GM is going to find its way into airline contracts. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if GM's bankruptcy lawyers were pouring over documents from the UA, NW, US and DL bankruptcy proceedings to see what cards they could play. And if GM and/or Chrysler go down for the count, you can bet that the airline lawyers will have ringside seats to see what they can be doing in the next round of airline bankruptcies....

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

OK,...time to see if..eolesen is right.

Fact,........even STUPID(W) won't let Ford of GM go bk-11(Chrysler will be absorbed) !
Fact..........Obama just name Ms. Solis as LABOR sec.(VERY PRO Union) !
Fact...........Andy Stern(SEIU) was "giddy" about the appointment !
Fact...........(for better or worse) CARD-CHECK will soon become a reality !

The number of Union members is about to GO UP, in the near future !

Can the AAgents be far behind ??................I Think NOT.

Maybe thats why..AA seems to be cooperative, in their bargaining for retiree Insurance.

As eolesen Knows VERY well, AA is like a BEAR in the woods, "sniffing" the Air, and always knowing how to "play" the political winds to it's AdvAAtage.

Ahhh,

Gas prices STILL dropping, and A "new sherriff coming to town", in 31 days. (for the next.." 8 " YEARS)...

 

[Hopeful]

Did I say it was a good idea, Dave?


If you think that won't have an impact on airline workers, think again. Every change that happens at GM is going to find its way into airline contracts. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if GM's bankruptcy lawyers were pouring over documents from the UA, NW, US and DL bankruptcy proceedings to see what cards they could play. And if GM and/or Chrysler go down for the count, you can bet that the airline lawyers will have ringside seats to see what they can be doing in the next round of airline bankruptcies....

I guess you have blocked out what has happened to the airline workers since Deregulation, Reagan's firing of the traffic controllers, and corporate America's hero, Frank Lorenzo became the patron saint of THE ANTI UNION movement. Airline workers, union AND non-union alike, have seen their wages and benefits decimated while at the same time watching corporate greed reach new heights.

AND YOU WONDER WHY THE UAW IS THE WAY IT IS?


Airline industry management wrote the book on screwing the worker LONG before the auto industry is being forced into it.

Did you ever stop and think that maybe the Congress and auto executives want to use what the airlines have done to their people as a business model?

 

[will fix for food]

There is HUGE difference in the two positions.

Union position alllows for member to stay on current pension plan.

Company demands everyone get off the current plan.

Read the proposals first and then make comments about how close those positions are.

Company final proposal #4 – Pensions - All new hire employees would be enrolled in a 401k plan in which the Company would automatically put in 1% and would match up to an additional 4.5% of the employee contribution. All current Members interested in this program would have a one time option of converting to this plan. Their defined benefit amount would “soft freeze.â€￾ Note: The program offered by the Company would have moved us from an industry-leading plan to fifth place plan among airlines.




There wasn't a one time option? Did I read the proposals wrong?

 

[FWAAA]

While the two sides are still far apart on some details, I was surprised at how close the two positions are. Before seeing this summary, I suspected that the TWU was seeking huge raises and other very costly restorations of work rules and benefits.

Once again, the TWU has sold out its members and the company has won - as even its harshest critics here (including one former AMFA organizer) are arguing about the details between the two positions instead of being livid at the TWU for failing to demand restore and more.

 

[TWU informer]

While the two sides are still far apart on some details, I was surprised at how close the two positions are. Before seeing this summary, I suspected that the TWU was seeking huge raises and other very costly restorations of work rules and benefits.

Once again, the TWU has sold out its members and the company has won - as even its harshest critics here (including one former AMFA organizer) are arguing about the details between the two positions instead of being livid at the TWU for failing to demand restore and more.

I was told that once mediation begins, these positions are out the window and the TWU is going back to earlier positions. Plus this is not the mechanic and related negotiating team so anger would be premature on my part.

While it does appear the TWU Joint Committee capitulated, I was told today by a member of the joint negotiating team that these positions are now meaningless.

Assuming the positions stand, a membership ballot is still forthcoming and unless Jim Little pulls another without further ratification agreement, time is still on our side here and the membership might just suprise you.

 

[Boomer]

I was told that once mediation begins, these positions are out the window and the TWU is going back to earlier positions. Plus this is not the mechanic and related negotiating team so anger would be premature on my part.

While it does appear the TWU Joint Committee capitulated, I was told today by a member of the joint negotiating team that these positions are now meaningless.

Assuming the positions stand, a membership ballot is still forthcoming and unless Jim Little pulls another without further ratification agreement, time is still on our side here and the membership might just suprise you.

Be very careful in accepting what anyone says about how mediation works.

The NMB Mediator will start with the last proposals that were on the table prior to impasse and the invitation ofthe parties to mediate talks.

Anyone at the TWU claiming they will be allowed to revert their positions is seeking cover for a decision they will claim is outrageous from the NMB Mediator.

 

[TWU informer]

Be very careful in accepting what anyone says about how mediation works.

The NMB Mediator will start with the last proposals that were on the table prior to impasse and the invitation ofthe parties to mediate talks.

Anyone at the TWU claiming they will be allowed to revert their positions is seeking cover for a decision they will claim is outrageous from the NMB Mediator.

Got any documents that show that to be fact?

 

[bigdawg52]

Got any documents that show that to be fact?

My understanding, for what it is worth. Is that articles that have been T.A.'d will not be touched, and they will concentrate on the articles that were at an impass. Just from what I have heard and read.

 

[eolesen]

Got any documents that show that to be fact?

No documents to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but in dispute mediation, you normally start with the last stated positions for both parties.

 

[Bob Owens]

No documents to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, but in dispute mediation, you normally start with the last stated positions for both parties.

I think its safe to say that these are not "normal" times.

 

[frontline]

While the two sides are still far apart on some details, I was surprised at how close the two positions are. Before seeing this summary, I suspected that the TWU was seeking huge raises and other very costly restorations of work rules and benefits.

Once again, the TWU has sold out its members and the company has won - as even its harshest critics here (including one former AMFA organizer) are arguing about the details between the two positions instead of being livid at the TWU for failing to demand restore and more.

I don't see it that way. Restore and more, just like the big raise the pilots want, will put my job in jeopardy. I'm no TWU booster, but I appreciate that the negotiators seem to be taking a reasonable stance instead of storming out of sessions like the pilots are doing.