1114 Retiree Benefits Filing

[Bob Owens]

The RLA restricts the ability to seek Self Help, but even without that the strikes have been deemed illegal during this process. So even in the unlikely scenario the unions receive a life line from the NMB, the precendent of a past strike indicates that is not an option.

Deal Set to End Northwest Strike​

Strikes are legal, just not for Airline workers, unless they get released by the NMB. That wasnt the case in 1983 when Continentals pilots went on strike in response to abrogation but thats what an appellate court decided a couple of years ago at NWA. They call that "Judicial Activism", Judges decide to rewrite laws according to their personal feelings instead of exploring the intent of the elected officials who wrote the laws in threory in response to the will of the people. Clearly the precent had been set that once a contract has been unilaterally abrogated that workers under the RLA could resort to self help just like all other workers who may find themselves in the middle of a C-11 reorganization, but the court decided otherwise, profitable airlines are better for Judges portfolios than fairly paid workers. Under the RLA changes in compensation are a major dispute and unilateral changes permit workers to strike. The law does not explicitely describe how a company could legally unilaterally change such terms, but it does say what our response can be, apparently C-11 is a means, but the Judges ignored it anyway and in effect rewrote the law to their liking.

BTW, the article you cited mentions that AMFA was on strike both before and during the BK.

 

[700UW]

The IAM was on strike before and Section 1113 did not exist at the time, the laws were different.

There was no precedent set as Section 1113 was not law at the time.

Conveniently you didnt post that now?

And precedent isnt set until it goes to the Supreme Court.

 

[Bob Owens]

$2.55 is pretty good, I would be ok with that but paying it as a GEO would be better than as Line pay because Tulsa line Mechanics don't live in a high cost of living area so In my opinion shouldn't get it anymore than the Overhaul Mechanics

1113 says nothing as far as limiting our ability to strike after abrogation. It merely sets standards which must be met to abrogate, most of which have been eroded by the activist court in NY. 1113 applies to ALL labor contracts that can be abrogated(according to 1167 contracts under the RLA can not be abrogated) once again and activist court decided to exclude airline workers, everyone else can strike.

 

[JABORD]

I'm copying my post from another topic because it applys more to this discussion.

This is why I commented about the challenge AA is putting to our current retirees. The decision to renige on the promise to provide health and life insurance is obscene! These folks have already left the workforce and can't just jump back into a job to replace the benefit being taken away. And, who can afford to pay it? Again, if this scenario were to play out and we were represented by the Teamsters, the decision of most retirees would be to seek employment and risk their pension check being suspended.

While working at the Pension Fund, retired members would call me and ask if I could give approval for them to make side money without risk to their pension check. Some basic interests expressed were 'lawn mower repair', 'selling vegetables' on the side of the road and such. Just common attempts to suppliment their fixed incomes. My training required me to ask them to put it in writing so a review board could hand down their decision. Many times, it wasn't what the member wanted to hear.

 

[eolesen]

So what are you saying?......its ok.....?

OK and legal are mutually exclusive.

Not trying to put words into FWAAA's mouth, but it's a fact Arpey tried to get AA's costs down to a sustainable level without using the bankruptcy process. I don't agree with a lot of the decisions madeby management after Crandall retired, but how Arpey in particular handled the last few years is a lot more respectable than many of you here want to give credit for.

Actions (or inactions in this case) have consequences. Blame management for the lack of implementing a viable strategy, but by not coming to an out-of-court agreement last year, the unions are squarely to blame for opening up Pandora's Box here.

 

[chris perry]

Pandora's box has been open since 2003...This Airline will never return to it's glory days...

 

[enough already]

http://twu514.org/blog/2012/07/09/american-airlines-inc-proposal-to-the-retiree-committee-to-modify-retiree-medical-and-life-insurance-benefits-7-6-2012/

 

[eolesen]

Pandora's box has been open since 2003...This Airline will never return to it's glory days...

I agree that AA has become a second-tier airline, and it's unfortunate, but employees share half the blame for that the moment they say "it's not my job".


For what its worth, you guys have been asking for WN's pay & benefits for years.

Guess what? Looks like AMR is simply replicating WN's commitment to its retirees.

Southwest has never offered a company sponsored retiree health plan (although there may be union sponsored plans).

Essentially, their obligation to retirees ends with a newsletter and travel privileges.

 

[700UW]

But a very good 401K match at WN.

 

[nbmcg01]

Eric, it is one thing to change the stakes for new retirees and another to end the plans for currently retired. Many made retirement decisions based on the need of insurance and the company's "promise". To try and compare WN and AA is not even apples and oranges. WN NEVER offered the plans, AA did. Once again it is all about business ethics and informed consent.

 

[eolesen]

Nancy, it is also naive to expect a life without change.

Call me a heartless bastard, but anyone who watched the past 20 years of the airline industry and still thought there was going to be a safety net is a little like Charlie Brown and the football... after 40 years, Lucy still yanks it away, no?

There was plenty of time to plan for the storm if you bothered to watch the horizon.

 

[Barfbag]

Nancy, it is also naive to expect a life without change.

Call me a heartless bastard, but anyone who watched the past 20 years of the airline industry and still thought there was going to be a safety net is a little like Charlie Brown and the football... after 40 years, Lucy still yanks it away, no?

40 years ago the Charlies had balls too. The modern-day Lucy now has to carry Charlie too. So sad..

 

[AA89]

Nancy, it is also naive to expect a life without change.

Call me a heartless bastard, but anyone who watched the past 20 years of the airline industry and still thought there was going to be a safety net is a little like Charlie Brown and the football... after 40 years, Lucy still yanks it away, no?

There was plenty of time to plan for the storm if you bothered to watch the horizon.

I'm sure with your ability to accurately predict the future that you made a killing over the last 20 years short selling airline stocks?
I didn't think so.

 

[Bob Owens]

Southwest has never offered a company sponsored retiree health plan (although there may be union sponsored plans).

Essentially, their obligation to retirees ends with a newsletter and travel privileges.

Think you should read their agreement before making such statements. WN allows its mechanics to use banked sick time at the rate of 11hours per month to buy retiree medical. They give them 12 sick days per year as well. As far as the pension they match 9% of all earnings. So figure around $10,000 per year on average. Even if they didn't their wages are around $25,000 more than ours are. So over a 40 year career that would be a difference of around $1,000,000. Sure can buy a lot of medical and live a lot better off that compared to what AA was offering.

 

[nbmcg01]

Eric, I choose not to use AA retirement insurance as I have far better at my current job. I find it offensive that the company supposedly negotiated retirement benefits "in good faith" and now when they have to make good on them, bail. I am seeing the same treatment of the firefighters in St. Louis. The City wants to fund other projects by cutting firefighters pensions. It comes down to ethics and honorable business practices. AA did not have to file bk. They are using the bk court to rape the workers of decades of negotiated work rules, benefits and pay. I understand the economics of new start airlines having lower costs but there will be a point that they won't be able to dangle that excuse anymore. AA has never negotiated "in good faith". They have not been willing to address no cost or cost neutral improvements to offset concessions. If it possibly benefits the worker they want something in return regardless if it is cost neutral. And lets look at concessions. It is amazing how much something costs when it is being negotiated (you know, all of those press releases of how much a contract cost the company) and how little those same items are valued when the company wants concessions. Don't get me started on the justification of corporate salaries and the need to "keep the talent".

As a former TWA employee I watched Ichan steal our retirement (among other things) and most of our people have lost 8-10 years of defined benefit accrual. Had we not been furlough fodder, many of us would have been able to retire and AA would have been able to hire. It is what it is...but I don't have to like it or agree with these questionable business practices.