The new Northwest...named "Delta"

[LukeAisleWalker]

I will share with you and cooper this answer. As to your theory of culture I say this, upon these peoples arrival at NWA in the early 1990's and the promises of "let's work together, share together" the Northwest "culture" smoked Delta up and down left and right...in every category. THAT...is a historical fact! Once screwed, the "culture" changed...guess that is what you folks will have to learn. (if this goes through)

Managers, regardless of their level will carry out the orders of the leaders of the company. How they achieve that has been demonstrated by their past actions.

You are dead wrong if you think the employees of Northwest Airlines will be "assimilated" into anything but Northwest merging with a slightly larger equal now run by Northwest. It is you who will be assimilated into the "bait and switch" of these individuals. Clearly, their history falls on deaf ears. That's like ignoring the history of an ax murderer, and thinking "well, he's at our house now so he won't be killing anybody like he did over the last 17 years" cause it's Delta.

Denial is a powerful elixir. You are in the wrong dimension if you think Northwest employees will happily give up their Unions with out a fight. First off...it is a KNOWN fact that the rank and file of NW employees are staunchly against the profiteering sale/ merger (what ever the HEDGE FUND bootlickers call it) of their company...period.

I feel the same about flying side by side with a detached from factual reality types, especially when they think they can tell us about people we've been dealing with for over 17 years. But...they will be "different" now because they have been kissed by the Delta magic fairy. It will NOT go as planned, that much you can plan on.

NxNW,

I'm not sure I understand your statement "NW culture smoked Delta up and down left and right".
Cultures aren't tangible objects that you can compare like DOT statistics.
If I think Italian culture is preferable to French culture, that would be an opinion. It certainly cannot be considered a " historical fact." Since I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that, I won't make any guesses but if you're going where I think you may be, it's gonna be a hard-sell to frame a company whose employees bought an airplane back in '82 against one that frankly, in my 30 years in the business, has always been known (whether correctly or not) as having adversarial relations with its respective mgt teams, working with minimum staffing (even when times were flush), old a/c and antiquated technology systems (Delta was late in the tech game too). I don't say this to disparage NW for I know there are many good things about the company but those always seemed to get lost in the other more negative rep.
That 767 "gift" was a P.R. coup for Delta and will always be a testament to their PAST history and culture. I don't know NW's history as well, but you're going to have a hard time topping that. But since culture is so subjective, again, I'll say..it's a matter of opinion based on one's personal experiences with their respective company.

As for the fight NW employees will put up, I believe you. I also believe that most will choose to stay union. However, with that being said, are you aware of NW f/a, Jose I's (I'm sure you know his last name) blog and his campaign against AFA and his seeming preference for NW f/a's to dump AFA after the merger is completed and go non-union?? If you know about this, I am seriously interested in your take. It seems that from what I understand, ranking PFAA leadership was none too happy when AFA took over (I believe they use the term "raided" NW) and are now willing to go without a contract rather than vote for AFA in the next election. Again, I would love to hear your take on his campaign and just how widespread it is. Thanks!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

NW/Delta Cabin Crew now face this merger from a weakened position vs. a powerful one, because 60% of Delta FAs thought Delta would be in control and skim off the top to their benefit ala Pan Am. That says alot about the bulk of Delta FAs. Now...they are facing the possibility of a precedent setting arbitration to the benefit of NW FAs. Delta management can do NOTHING for them now. If NW crews turn down the negotiated settlement it automatically goes to binding arbitration. Delta FAs had better hope the next Union election passes...for their benefit. Greedy Karma is a crazy B*tch with an meat ax.

In the long run...757 lays the reality of the situation out on the table. It is what it is.

Nx,
This is what I (and others) tried to impart to f/a's like Cooper last spring but to no avail. I understand that NYC had many 12 year and under FAs who chose the wait-and-vote-next-time approach (which interestingly enough DL practically promoted in one of their weeklies). If and when NW f/a's get up from Delta's negotiating table and send it to arbitration, it will be a coin-toss as to what happens depending, of course, on the views of the arbitrator.
If his view is more preferable to NW f/a's, then I'm afraid Cooper & company may have "hit" on 20 while playing proverbial Blackjack and will end up busted.

 

[North by Northwest]

NxNW,

I'm not sure I understand your statement "NW culture smoked Delta up and down left and right".
Cultures aren't tangible objects that you can compare like DOT statistics.
If I think Italian culture is preferable to French culture, that would be an opinion. It certainly cannot be considered a " historical fact." Since I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that, I won't make any guesses but if you're going where I think you may be, it's gonna be a hard-sell to frame a company whose employees bought an airplane back in '82 against one that frankly, in my 30 years in the business, has always been known (whether correctly or not) as having adversarial relations with its respective mgt teams, working with minimum staffing (even when times were flush), old a/c and antiquated technology systems (Delta was late in the tech game too). I don't say this to disparage NW for I know there are many good things about the company but those always seemed to get lost in the other more negative rep.
That 767 "gift" was a P.R. coup for Delta and will always be a testament to their PAST history and culture. I don't know NW's history as well, but you're going to have a hard time topping that. But since culture is so subjective, again, I'll say..it's a matter of opinion based on one's personal experiences with their respective company.

As for the fight NW employees will put up, I believe you. I also believe that most will choose to stay union. However, with that being said, are you aware of NW f/a, Jose I's (I'm sure you know his last name) blog and his campaign against AFA and his seeming preference for NW f/a's to dump AFA after the merger is completed and go non-union?? If you know about this, I am seriously interested in your take. It seems that from what I understand, ranking PFAA leadership was none too happy when AFA took over (I believe they use the term "raided" NW) and are now willing to go without a contract rather than vote for AFA in the next election. Again, I would love to hear your take on his campaign and just how widespread it is. Thanks!

Culture is in the eyes of the beholder. Delta employees may have "bought" the company a plane, but NW employees launched an action plan of "pull together for the company" in the early 90's that placed it ahead of every major airline in the US in every gov. ranking (as I do believe airline culture is reflected in gov. rankings as it demonstrates the cultures ability to make that "767" arrive on time, with luggage, more than others as a competitive, cultural advantage.)

Moreover, those old planes where inherited from Republic and placed NW on track to reap the largest profits in it's history (with the help of the sweat, determination, and grit of NW employees) That's where we put our actions vs. buying an airplane. Northwest has ALWAYS been a leader in technology including launching some of the largest most sophisticated aircraft in history, the 747-400 for example (cutting edge meteorology tech that the ENTIRE industry and government adopted), and pioneering global routes as the one of the first in history. Hardly a laggard in technology. The opportunity for an end to labor strife ended once the profits started to roll in and GREED was behind it all from the beginning. That's the kind of people they are. Ours is a culture that EXPECTS to share in the profits that OUR expertise and hard work earns.

It went into a tail spin after the lying pigs reneged on every promise made (except of course their tens of millions...the SAME ones that will be running new Delta)

In reference to Jose, Luke, he has always been the voice of the opposing side of the Democratic process. It is ALWAYS good to hear an opposing view, it keeps any Union on it's toes. I can say this with pretty much certainty, no NW person will vote to go non Union with these people in charge. AFA may not be the way to go, perhaps an Independent Union is the answer. I believe the industry should establish Unions based on global alliances. THAT will be where the real power is. A Union whereas ALL SkyTeam Cabin Crews fall under and support.

Memory lane...enjoy!


http://www.youtube.com/v/QCz8he36hsk&hl=en

 

[cooper43]

Culture is in the eyes of the beholder. Delta employees may have "bought" the company a plane, but NW employees launched an action plan of "pull together for the company" in the early 90's that placed it ahead of every major airline in the US in every gov. ranking (as I do believe airline culture is reflected in gov. rankings as it demonstrates the cultures ability to make that "767" arrive on time, with luggage, more than others as a competitive, cultural advantage.)

Moreover, those old planes where inherited from Republic and placed NW on track to reap the largest profits in it's history (with the help of the sweat, determination, and grit of NW employees) That's where we put our actions vs. buying an airplane. Northwest has ALWAYS been a leader in technology including launching some of the largest most sophisticated aircraft in history, the 747-400 for example (cutting edge meteorology tech that the ENTIRE industry and government adopted), and pioneering global routes as the one of the first in history. Hardly a laggard in technology. The opportunity for an end to labor strife ended once the profits started to roll in and GREED was behind it all from the beginning. That's the kind of people they are. Ours is a culture that EXPECTS to share in the profits that OUR expertise and hard work earns.

It went into a tail spin after the lying pigs reneged on every promise made (except of course their tens of millions...the SAME ones that will be running new Delta)

In reference to Jose, Luke, he has always been the voice of the opposing side of the Democratic process. It is ALWAYS good to hear an opposing view, it keeps any Union on it's toes. I can say this with pretty much certainty, no NW person will vote to go non Union with these people in charge. AFA may not be the way to go, perhaps an Independent Union is the answer. I believe the industry should establish Unions based on global alliances. THAT will be where the real power is. A Union whereas ALL SkyTeam Cabin Crews fall under and support.

Memory lane...enjoy!


http://www.youtube.com/v/QCz8he36hsk&hl=en

I beleive what you are describing as culture is reputation. The DOT statistics are things that most passengers do not really follow IMO. Culture refers to how a group of people (in this case DL or NW employees) interact with one another. How they do what they do, and collective attitudes and behaviors. It is a matter of subjective opinion and the employees of each airline are naturally going to think that the way they act, believe and do thier jobs is the better way. This is being ethnocentric. You will find that most DL people are proud of our airline just as you are of yours. We are all in this together and we all have different ideas. The sooner we realize that the other is not our enemy, then the smoother this merger will go (if approved). If management tries to put one over on us, do you really think that we can't have the power to flex our muscles? As I have stated in past post I am supportive of a union but even if we do not have one right away, we still have power. Delta will not do anything drastic because they will want to keep us non union. The threat of a union has always given managment an incentive here at Delta to be fair. Now I am sure you will vehimently(sp) disagree with that but I only say that so that you do not think things are going to hell in a hand basket. IF managment changes course so can we. IMHO

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I beleive what you are describing as culture is reputation. The DOT statistics are things that most passengers do not really follow IMO. Culture refers to how a group of people (in this case DL or NW employees) interact with one another. How they do what they do, and collective attitudes and behaviors. It is a matter of subjective opinion and the employees of each airline are naturally going to think that the way they act, believe and do thier jobs is the better way. This is being ethnocentric. You will find that most DL people are proud of our airline just as you are of yours. We are all in this together and we all have different ideas. The sooner we realize that the other is not our enemy, then the smoother this merger will go (if approved). If management tries to put one over on us, do you really think that we can't have the power to flex our muscles? As I have stated in past post I am supportive of a union but even if we do not have one right away, we still have power. Delta will not do anything drastic because they will want to keep us non union. The threat of a union has always given managment an incentive here at Delta to be fair. Now I am sure you will vehimently(sp) disagree with that but I only say that so that you do not think things are going to hell in a hand basket. IF managment changes course so can we. IMHO

Excellent summation of culture vs. reputation, Cooper.
Not so sure about the rest of your posting.
I'm curious, if you feel the "threat" of a union is in and of itself, powerful, why do you support unionization? I don't think in all your posts (that I've read) you've ever presented your case for supporting unionization...only why you didn't vote the in this past Spring's election (Date of Hire provision).

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

In reference to Jose, Luke, he has always been the voice of the opposing side of the Democratic process. It is ALWAYS good to hear an opposing view, it keeps any Union on it's toes. I can say this with pretty much certainty, no NW person will vote to go non Union with these people in charge. AFA may not be the way to go, perhaps an Independent Union is the answer. I believe the industry should establish Unions based on global alliances. THAT will be where the real power is. A Union whereas ALL SkyTeam Cabin Crews fall under and support.

I agree with what you're saying as far as keeping a Union on it's toes and hearing an opposing view. I'm all for that but the blog entries I've read from Jose's site seem very serious and that he is definitely trying to steer your f/a peers at NW away from voting (for AFA) in the next election. You would know his tactics better than I, but from the sound of it, I wouldn't be so certain to declare "no NW pwerson will vote to go non Union". He seems determined, up to the point of claiming there is no difference between Delta's Policy Manual and a contract.
As for the Indep. Union, I am definitely in agreement with you there.

 

[BABABOOY]

AFA may not be the way to go, perhaps an Independent Union is the answer. I believe the industry should establish Unions based on global alliances. THAT will be where the real power is. A Union whereas ALL SkyTeam Cabin Crews fall under and support.

Wow, I actually agree with this statement.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Wow, I actually agree with this statement.

Ditto, but how to make it happen is the question.

NxNW--any suggestions?
So many f/a's I talk to who didn't vote said they were for representation, just not by AFA. Yet when asked, few of them had an alternative suggestion or were willing to put in the work time to form an Independent Union. (I must say that looking back, I was not at all pleased with some of AFA's tactics--too strong-armed, too desperate. I also don't like that Pat Friend retired from UA effective 8/1 yet she's maintaining her position w/ AFA).
I think with 21,000 members a NW/DL Independent FA Union could be quite strong. If you added in other Skyteam Members' f/a's, wow! (Can European unions decertify and join another union?)

 

[BABABOOY]

Maybe the folks at AA can give us some pointers? I know
several F/A's, myself included, that would work towards an Independant
Union.

 

[cooper43]

Excellent summation of culture vs. reputation, Cooper.
Not so sure about the rest of your posting.
I'm curious, if you feel the "threat" of a union is in and of itself, powerful, why do you support unionization? I don't think in all your posts (that I've read) you've ever presented your case for supporting unionization...only why you didn't vote the in this past Spring's election (Date of Hire provision).

Hi Luke,
I have always been pro union I voted back in the 2000 campaign and I really battled with the decsion this past campaign. You already know the reasons form my hesitation in the last election so I wont bother explaining that again. However my reasons for wanting a unionization are the same as most others probably. I do want a contract with concrete work rules that do not change with the cercumstances to favor scheduling. Even if we have to grevance them at least scheduling will be held to the same rules as we are. Another reason is that I would like to have a voice if we see that managment is taking advantage of us just as our pilots do. It will command more respect for us and we will be able to actively work to improve our work environment. However, I do not feel that this is such a threat now that we needed to elect AFA out of a panic for our seniority as some have stated. I feel now that we have a better chance to recieve a more fair seniority intergration than we would have if AFA were in control now. I would support an independant union so that our dues would go toward the combined carriers f/a's, instead of constantly trying to recruit other airlines or paying for helping other carriers. This independant union could be a powerful union, and I do like the idea (if it were legal) to have a connection to other skyteam carriers.

 

[DLFlyer31]

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't occuring... You must not be looking very hard?

Just a few examples:

+ A concerted campaign to have employees write local senators/congress urging opposition.

+ Well attended hearings in Washington D.C.

+ Well attended hearings in Minnesota.

Need more?

Apathetic is the last adjective I'd use to describe the NW workgroups right now.

I'm sorry but filling in a form letter to your congressmen and showing up at a hearing is pretty much meaningless. If the employees were truly serious about stopping this merger, they would be doing a whole lot more.

 

[North by Northwest]

I'm sorry but filling in a form letter to your congressmen and showing up at a hearing is pretty much meaningless. If the employees were truly serious about stopping this merger, they would be doing a whole lot more.

I'm sorry since you are such an expert, please enlighten us as to the proper procedure on how to be serious about stopping a merger. Moreover, I suppose Democracy in this Republic is finished based on your our system of Congress.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I'm sorry but filling in a form letter to your congressmen and showing up at a hearing is pretty much meaningless. If the employees were truly serious about stopping this merger, they would be doing a whole lot more.

And what would that be?? It's best to back up such assertions with examples.
Are you talking..taking it to the streets with protests? ...sit-ins? Just what did you have in mind?

 

[North by Northwest]

"Culture" is the set of shared attitudes (professionalism), values, goals (profit), and practices (DOT rankings)that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on being the preferred airline based on ability to deliver preferred product such as arriving on time, with baggage, efficiency of travel...and so on> d: (partial excerpt from merriam webster)

Luke,Cooper,

One way to approach a potential International Union would be to propose the idea to the heads of the leading Unions of SkyTeam. It has been done (international unions....one was recently concluded ):

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/ar..._holds_meeting/

AFA must undergo dramatic changes to stay alive. Pat Friend has become a career politician the likes of Diane Feinstein.

If airline companies can collude in sharing operations and revenue under international law, Unions can share support in work rules and compensation. Sadly, Cabin Crew in this country can't even get a National Union. ALPA doesn't even have across the board policies. Too many chiefs confronting a corporate mafia. I am pretty sure Air France/KLM would be interested in joining forces...that could be a definite force to reckon with. IF...this deal goes through, under NO circumstances should Crew members for the largest airline in the world be working for anything less than the best wages in the industry, comparable to it's management, pilots, AND BOD. Delta's "direct relationship" saw fit to put in writing (legally binding) commitment for wage and work rules improvements for it's pilots group. One does not have to have a PhD to know why. What did the non-union direct relationship get?

Luke, you will be HARD pressed to find ONE NW FA willing to work (non union) for the same people running the new Delta. The ones who wanted to give their jobs away to cheap outsourcing, and keep their pay at regional level...that's the real Anderson/Steenland team. They prefer to take your raises from their "direct employee relationship BS" and give them to HEDGE FUNDS.

Ones best defense in this business is an informed offense.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Hi Luke,
I have always been pro union I voted back in the 2000 campaign and I really battled with the decsion this past campaign. You already know the reasons form my hesitation in the last election so I wont bother explaining that again. However my reasons for wanting a unionization are the same as most others probably. I do want a contract with concrete work rules that do not change with the cercumstances to favor scheduling. Even if we have to grevance them at least scheduling will be held to the same rules as we are. Another reason is that I would like to have a voice if we see that managment is taking advantage of us just as our pilots do. It will command more respect for us and we will be able to actively work to improve our work environment. However, I do not feel that this is such a threat now that we needed to elect AFA out of a panic for our seniority as some have stated. I feel now that we have a better chance to recieve a more fair seniority intergration than we would have if AFA were in control now. I would support an independant union so that our dues would go toward the combined carriers f/a's, instead of constantly trying to recruit other airlines or paying for helping other carriers. This independant union could be a powerful union, and I do like the idea (if it were legal) to have a connection to other skyteam carriers.

It's interesting that 2 weeks after the vote, a memo was put out detailing disciplinary actions.
Also, with the crazy weather/thunderstorms, come more and more outrageousness from Inflite Scheduling including one who claimed there was no 8-hr "behind the door" policy. Or the proverbial "are you refusing the trip?" or "are you asking that the flight be delayed so you can have legal rest?" What's the point in having updated "Work Rules" when you are intimidated, battled and threatened by schedulers when you express your right to use them??