ITRADE
Veteran
Survival is the very thing that you should be concerned about given that the airline is running off the very passengers the airline needs to retain...
The Final Draft - A letter to Mr Seigel from a US1
- Thread starter Squonk
- Start date
This Board is better than an afternoon movie. If you follow the chronology, first the company dumps on the employees. Then the employees start dumping on each other. Finally, the employees and the company go after the customers. It's so bad, you even got Art at ISP, a guy who bleeds red and grey, pissed, after even he gets dumped on. It's Looney Tunes at Air Whacko.
How about if you try reading what I wrote and believing what I say?
All the perks in the world are of no value whatsoever if I can't afford to get on the plane. Or if there is no plane for me to get onto. That's the bottom line.
So far as I'm concerned US Airways is pricing itself out of business. That's all. If that's what they want to do that's ok with me. I'm not hollering and yelling at anyone about it. I am trying to open the eyes of a few people about why this is a really bad idea. But if you'd like to follow U into Chapter 7 at whatever airline you work for feel free to follow their example.
You said it yourself -- the pricing model is broken. It needs to be fixed. IMHO what US Airways is doing isn't fixing anything it is more of the same and making it even more broken. (We might even agree on that if I read your earlier posting correctly.)
Your valuation of the perks, and the valuation that I put on them are vastly different. You attribute the difference to me being dishonest about the value that I place on them. I attribute the difference to you being unrealistic, or misled, about the cost of these items.
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 4:55:20 PM N305AS wrote:
Tom-
If it's not about perks you won't be getting as easily anymore, then please enlighten us by saying what this IS truly about.
We've all got your number, pal. The bottom line is that you're bent about not being recognized as being "special" by US Airways anymore unless you're paying higher fares than you're currently accustomed to. They're making it harder on you to earn your little "I'm special" card and you're having a hard time digesting that. Why can't you simply own up to this already instead of deflecting attention from the real reason you're mad? You're saying, "Things aren't going my way anymore and I'm not happy about it." Admit it and move on.
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[/blockquote]
All the perks in the world are of no value whatsoever if I can't afford to get on the plane. Or if there is no plane for me to get onto. That's the bottom line.
So far as I'm concerned US Airways is pricing itself out of business. That's all. If that's what they want to do that's ok with me. I'm not hollering and yelling at anyone about it. I am trying to open the eyes of a few people about why this is a really bad idea. But if you'd like to follow U into Chapter 7 at whatever airline you work for feel free to follow their example.
You said it yourself -- the pricing model is broken. It needs to be fixed. IMHO what US Airways is doing isn't fixing anything it is more of the same and making it even more broken. (We might even agree on that if I read your earlier posting correctly.)
Your valuation of the perks, and the valuation that I put on them are vastly different. You attribute the difference to me being dishonest about the value that I place on them. I attribute the difference to you being unrealistic, or misled, about the cost of these items.
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 4:55:20 PM N305AS wrote:
Tom-
If it's not about perks you won't be getting as easily anymore, then please enlighten us by saying what this IS truly about.
We've all got your number, pal. The bottom line is that you're bent about not being recognized as being "special" by US Airways anymore unless you're paying higher fares than you're currently accustomed to. They're making it harder on you to earn your little "I'm special" card and you're having a hard time digesting that. Why can't you simply own up to this already instead of deflecting attention from the real reason you're mad? You're saying, "Things aren't going my way anymore and I'm not happy about it." Admit it and move on.
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[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 3:52:15 PM usfliboi wrote:
Thousands????????? Man a few posters on here doesnt mean thousands... sure people werne happy but i think there are more important things post 911 than worring about perks... survival being one of them
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[/blockquote]
Back when I got customer service training they beat me about the head and shoulders making the point that for every customer who actually says something to the company about a problem there are dozens who didn't bother. But those dozens probably did tell all of their freinds and relatives...
And for every person who posts to these boards (and this is far from the only place where these things are discussed) there are hundreds of lurkers.
Furthermore -- this isn't about perks. The longer you think so and the more you belittle customer feedback as whining about perks the worse off you're going to be. (You being primarily the company but to some degree also the people in and around the company who have blinders on regarding the subject...)
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On 9/5/2002 3:52:15 PM usfliboi wrote:
Thousands????????? Man a few posters on here doesnt mean thousands... sure people werne happy but i think there are more important things post 911 than worring about perks... survival being one of them
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[/blockquote]
Back when I got customer service training they beat me about the head and shoulders making the point that for every customer who actually says something to the company about a problem there are dozens who didn't bother. But those dozens probably did tell all of their freinds and relatives...
And for every person who posts to these boards (and this is far from the only place where these things are discussed) there are hundreds of lurkers.
Furthermore -- this isn't about perks. The longer you think so and the more you belittle customer feedback as whining about perks the worse off you're going to be. (You being primarily the company but to some degree also the people in and around the company who have blinders on regarding the subject...)
KCFlyer
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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 4:55:20 PM N305AS wrote:
Tom-
If it's not about perks you won't be getting as easily anymore, then please enlighten us by saying what this IS truly about.
We've all got your number, pal. The bottom line is that you're bent about not being recognized as being "special" by US Airways anymore unless you're paying higher fares than you're currently accustomed to. They're making it harder on you to earn your little I'm special card and you're having a hard time digesting that. Why can't you simply own up to this already instead of deflecting attention from the real reason you're mad? You're saying, Things aren't going my way anymore and I'm not happy about it. Admit it and move on.
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[/blockquote]
And when you discover that a lot of people do admit it and move on, you and your company might learn to appreciate EVERY dollar you get, not just the full fare dollar you get.
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On 9/5/2002 4:55:20 PM N305AS wrote:
Tom-
If it's not about perks you won't be getting as easily anymore, then please enlighten us by saying what this IS truly about.
We've all got your number, pal. The bottom line is that you're bent about not being recognized as being "special" by US Airways anymore unless you're paying higher fares than you're currently accustomed to. They're making it harder on you to earn your little I'm special card and you're having a hard time digesting that. Why can't you simply own up to this already instead of deflecting attention from the real reason you're mad? You're saying, Things aren't going my way anymore and I'm not happy about it. Admit it and move on.
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[/blockquote]
And when you discover that a lot of people do admit it and move on, you and your company might learn to appreciate EVERY dollar you get, not just the full fare dollar you get.
KCFlyer
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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 6:55:35 PM RealityCheck wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 5:38:10 PM TomBascom wrote:
How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.
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[/blockquote]
THat was a 77% load factor BEFORE this policy was announced. Let's wait for September numbers...and remember, we'll need to see about any fleet cutbacks that might make that LF figure better than it looks.
Oh, also, LUV certainly does look at pricing from a DM perspective...they GIVE AWAY a ticket for every 4 roundtrips you buy...regardless of the fare.
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On 9/5/2002 6:55:35 PM RealityCheck wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 5:38:10 PM TomBascom wrote:
How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.
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[/blockquote]
THat was a 77% load factor BEFORE this policy was announced. Let's wait for September numbers...and remember, we'll need to see about any fleet cutbacks that might make that LF figure better than it looks.
Oh, also, LUV certainly does look at pricing from a DM perspective...they GIVE AWAY a ticket for every 4 roundtrips you buy...regardless of the fare.
RealityCheck
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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 5:38:10 PM TomBascom wrote:
How about if you try reading what I wrote and believing what I say?
All the perks in the world are of no value whatsoever if I can't afford to get on the plane. Or if there is no plane for me to get onto. That's the bottom line.
So far as I'm concerned US Airways is pricing itself out of business. That's all. If that's what they want to do that's ok with me. I'm not hollering and yelling at anyone about it. I am trying to open the eyes of a few people about why this is a really bad idea. But if you'd like to follow U into Chapter 7 at whatever airline you work for feel free to follow their example.
You said it yourself -- the pricing model is broken. It needs to be fixed. IMHO what US Airways is doing isn't fixing anything it is more of the same and making it even more broken. (We might even agree on that if I read your earlier posting correctly.)
Your valuation of the perks, and the valuation that I put on them are vastly different. You attribute the difference to me being dishonest about the value that I place on them. I attribute the difference to you being unrealistic, or misled, about the cost of these items.
[blockquote]
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Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.IS that what the airline business has come to? How many more corners do we have to cut back? How does U maintain some of the best on time rates and completion factors in the industry despite the conflicts?
I look at and can compare fares all day long, and If anything prices have come down, not gone up over the past couple of months especially business fares, in response to NW or CO a couple of months ago. And I am seeing more MR HR type r/t discounts I see all over the place that were not there before. There seems to be a twisting and overlapping of logic and statistics being applied here being mixed into the DM program changes. How IS that justified? The DM program should not be a primary or even a secondary basis for pricing airline fares.Does anyone think LUV and JET BLUE looks at pricing from a DM perspective? I dont think so.
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On 9/5/2002 5:38:10 PM TomBascom wrote:
How about if you try reading what I wrote and believing what I say?
All the perks in the world are of no value whatsoever if I can't afford to get on the plane. Or if there is no plane for me to get onto. That's the bottom line.
So far as I'm concerned US Airways is pricing itself out of business. That's all. If that's what they want to do that's ok with me. I'm not hollering and yelling at anyone about it. I am trying to open the eyes of a few people about why this is a really bad idea. But if you'd like to follow U into Chapter 7 at whatever airline you work for feel free to follow their example.
You said it yourself -- the pricing model is broken. It needs to be fixed. IMHO what US Airways is doing isn't fixing anything it is more of the same and making it even more broken. (We might even agree on that if I read your earlier posting correctly.)
Your valuation of the perks, and the valuation that I put on them are vastly different. You attribute the difference to me being dishonest about the value that I place on them. I attribute the difference to you being unrealistic, or misled, about the cost of these items.
[blockquote]
----------------
Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.IS that what the airline business has come to? How many more corners do we have to cut back? How does U maintain some of the best on time rates and completion factors in the industry despite the conflicts?
I look at and can compare fares all day long, and If anything prices have come down, not gone up over the past couple of months especially business fares, in response to NW or CO a couple of months ago. And I am seeing more MR HR type r/t discounts I see all over the place that were not there before. There seems to be a twisting and overlapping of logic and statistics being applied here being mixed into the DM program changes. How IS that justified? The DM program should not be a primary or even a secondary basis for pricing airline fares.Does anyone think LUV and JET BLUE looks at pricing from a DM perspective? I dont think so.
RealityCheck
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Load factors for every month already take into account cuts in fleet size and flights, don't they??..so looking at SEPT shouldn't be any different(unless you incorrectly compare it to last SEPT without taking into account reduction in available seat miles etc). And of course one needs to account for the fact SEPT and OCT are slow months anyway. If it's a 70 or 75 pct e.g., that's based on a reduced fleet and reduced flight count.I think with the new policies everyone is adopting ,use it or lose it wise, we might see people booking closer to departure date than before, just to be sure they can still go without losing the tkt value..but there are still lots of people who book 3 months ahead and swear to me they are going no matter what, as they are being advised the change rules etc.
The LUV 4 r/t deal is a short term special..usually you need 8 r/trips.The choices of partners for accrual and their destinations is like comparing the TAJ MAHAL to Woolworths.
I didn't know LUV only books a max of approx. 4 months in advance..wow whatta perk!And no advance seats. But they dont capacity control them.
They dont allow you to get credit on flights or after the fact unless you show the ato agent your memebrship card. If you have it memorized or on paper, that wont do. They allow one retro active credit per year.
Totally different than U.
So every airline has its features,upsides and downsides,, you cannot expect everyone to match everyone to the letter..not only would that be unrealistic, its insane. And doesnt happen in the rest of the business world.(except maybe for 4 gas stations all at the same intersection)
The LUV 4 r/t deal is a short term special..usually you need 8 r/trips.The choices of partners for accrual and their destinations is like comparing the TAJ MAHAL to Woolworths.
I didn't know LUV only books a max of approx. 4 months in advance..wow whatta perk!And no advance seats. But they dont capacity control them.
They dont allow you to get credit on flights or after the fact unless you show the ato agent your memebrship card. If you have it memorized or on paper, that wont do. They allow one retro active credit per year.
Totally different than U.
So every airline has its features,upsides and downsides,, you cannot expect everyone to match everyone to the letter..not only would that be unrealistic, its insane. And doesnt happen in the rest of the business world.(except maybe for 4 gas stations all at the same intersection)
.... you cannot expect everyone to match everyone to the letter..not only would that be unrealistic, its insane.
If that's true (and I agree with you) then perhaps Ben Baldanza and his comments about US being able to still offer the low fares that leisure travelers expect and the flexibility and service the full-fare business traveler needs should be re-addressed.
If that's true (and I agree with you) then perhaps Ben Baldanza and his comments about US being able to still offer the low fares that leisure travelers expect and the flexibility and service the full-fare business traveler needs should be re-addressed.
RealityCheck
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[blockquote]
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On 9/5/2002 9
13 PM geo1004 wrote:
.... you cannot expect everyone to match everyone to the letter..not only would that be unrealistic, its insane.
If that's true (and I agree with you) then perhaps Ben Baldanza and his comments about US being able to still offer the low fares that leisure travelers expect and the flexibility and service the full-fare business traveler needs should be re-addressed.
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[/blockquote]
I believe regardless of a gap in pricing( which from what I have seen is in very few markets comparable to LUV, maybe 20 pct tops??) that there exists a marked difference between leisure and business, both service wise, and between no frills and frills. I'm not talking meals and linens. Any idea what a pleasure it is to have a preferred call up and ask me for access to Q SEATS like exit rows where the leisure non prefered has no access?And I can access Q seats for nonpref members trvling on a separate record than the preferred but the same flight... with one nice computer entry!..tell me that's not looking out for the top flyers.Can you put a monetary price on that feature..5,10,100 per flt?/I sure can't.. I wouldn't know how or what number..over a years worth of time anyway of requests for such seats.Not to mention a dedicated desk of (hopefully) experienced agts on the chpr and pref desk and shorter chk in lines at ato.And 800 nbr access to DM center in Winston as opposed to long distance for non PREF.
Any idea how nice and easy (and pleasing) it is to upgrade a Y or B right into I class for a preferred on a biz fare..and at the same time have the 20k award non elite MA and Pa Kettles and their toothless kids [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif'] who paid 200 r/t not have immediate hogging access to these(G) unless flight is really really empty?
The markets where its 600 rt versus 2000 rt or 300 vs 1000 in the map of the entire companys route structure, as I said above, is relatively small..I can pull up 10 random markets in 10 random calls and pull up LUV fares as well to compare and more often than not they are quite similar, maybe not the change rules, but overall pricing.And I can state that confidently because I deal with 100's of fare quote displays a day.
As I have said, each airline has its highs and lows..even MR ART of ISP wont fly the cattle car,perhaps he's not qualified to make that statement(not having flown them) but I assume he is not alone in his sentiment.Thank GOD![img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/16.gif']
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On 9/5/2002 9
13 PM geo1004 wrote: .... you cannot expect everyone to match everyone to the letter..not only would that be unrealistic, its insane.
If that's true (and I agree with you) then perhaps Ben Baldanza and his comments about US being able to still offer the low fares that leisure travelers expect and the flexibility and service the full-fare business traveler needs should be re-addressed.
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[/blockquote]
I believe regardless of a gap in pricing( which from what I have seen is in very few markets comparable to LUV, maybe 20 pct tops??) that there exists a marked difference between leisure and business, both service wise, and between no frills and frills. I'm not talking meals and linens. Any idea what a pleasure it is to have a preferred call up and ask me for access to Q SEATS like exit rows where the leisure non prefered has no access?And I can access Q seats for nonpref members trvling on a separate record than the preferred but the same flight... with one nice computer entry!..tell me that's not looking out for the top flyers.Can you put a monetary price on that feature..5,10,100 per flt?/I sure can't.. I wouldn't know how or what number..over a years worth of time anyway of requests for such seats.Not to mention a dedicated desk of (hopefully) experienced agts on the chpr and pref desk and shorter chk in lines at ato.And 800 nbr access to DM center in Winston as opposed to long distance for non PREF.
Any idea how nice and easy (and pleasing) it is to upgrade a Y or B right into I class for a preferred on a biz fare..and at the same time have the 20k award non elite MA and Pa Kettles and their toothless kids [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif'] who paid 200 r/t not have immediate hogging access to these(G) unless flight is really really empty?
The markets where its 600 rt versus 2000 rt or 300 vs 1000 in the map of the entire companys route structure, as I said above, is relatively small..I can pull up 10 random markets in 10 random calls and pull up LUV fares as well to compare and more often than not they are quite similar, maybe not the change rules, but overall pricing.And I can state that confidently because I deal with 100's of fare quote displays a day.
As I have said, each airline has its highs and lows..even MR ART of ISP wont fly the cattle car,perhaps he's not qualified to make that statement(not having flown them) but I assume he is not alone in his sentiment.Thank GOD![img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/16.gif']
KCFlyer
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[blockquote]
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Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.[/blockquote]
Neither is an 18.2% cutback in ASMs for the month. .
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Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..A 77 percent load factor in AUGUST is nothing to sneeze about.Any lower and someone will be watering down the jet fuel and hiring 10 buck an hour pilots and service folks.[/blockquote]
Neither is an 18.2% cutback in ASMs for the month. .
[blockquote]
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Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..
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[/blockquote]
It's not sudden. If you had actually understood the two letters at the top of the thread you'd know that.
Yes you have jacked up fares. It's the sneakiest fare increase in all recorded history.
The specific product which I bought often several weeks ago now costs at least 50% more and more often 500% more. You've got something completely different sitting on the shelf where that product used to be. The new thing that you have on the shelf used to be called a Priceline ticket. Those go for a fraction of what you're now trying to charge.
If this were not so you wouldn't be being so careful to make sure that you say those magic words to all of the people who are unwittingly falling for it.
You'd get a very different reaction if you had to disclose to people in dollar terms what it would cost them to wake up in Orlando 3 hours after their flight home left.
For instance:
Suppose, just for kicks, that I take a little trip to Disney with the family next month. (We all know that evil businessmen traveling in disguise as leisure travlers deserve no sympathy. After all we aren't really paying for the tix and we're just going to pass the cost along to our customers. So I won't try any sob stories along those lines.)
So back to the family -- 5 tickets MHT -> MCO out on 10/5, back on 10/11. $286.50 each. HE71QN3 on the way down and VE141QN3 on the way back. Or I could go for the $200.50 pure VE141QN3 option... decisions, decisions... but for a $400+ savings I'll go with the pure V option. After all I'm known to be motivated solely by price.
Now I get down there and gosh, something bad happens! Yeah, most customers travel as planned but, like most bags arriving on time, sometimes it just doesn't work out. So it happens. For whatever reason it's 3 hours after the return flight left. Of course I get right on the phone and call the CP desk to find out what my options are. Oh cool! I can buy 5 one way tix for the bargin price of $559! Hey, that's fun. Cost for the family -- about $2,800. We know you have a choice in air travel and we hope to see you on another flight soon!
(If you don't like the wake up late story try something more sympathetic like Johnny fell under a bus and had to be taken to the hospital -- by the time the Doctors said he'd be ok and we got the word that we could go home it was 2am the next day... Or whatever. Use your imagination but don't forget -- no exceptions!)
Or I can avoid this possibility and get the flexibility that I had just a little over a week ago by just buying a nice safe refundable ticket. How much are those fine B8US fares? (I really like the ECONOMY CLASS UNRESTRICTED NORMAL FARE title -- economy indeed!) Same flights, same seats... $1,122.50. Each.
That was a pretty mild example. I could have taken the family to San Francisco. Or Europe.
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Wait a sec..How did this suddenly become about U pricing itself out of business? No one has jacked the fares up here..
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[/blockquote]
It's not sudden. If you had actually understood the two letters at the top of the thread you'd know that.
Yes you have jacked up fares. It's the sneakiest fare increase in all recorded history.
The specific product which I bought often several weeks ago now costs at least 50% more and more often 500% more. You've got something completely different sitting on the shelf where that product used to be. The new thing that you have on the shelf used to be called a Priceline ticket. Those go for a fraction of what you're now trying to charge.
If this were not so you wouldn't be being so careful to make sure that you say those magic words to all of the people who are unwittingly falling for it.
You'd get a very different reaction if you had to disclose to people in dollar terms what it would cost them to wake up in Orlando 3 hours after their flight home left.
For instance:
Suppose, just for kicks, that I take a little trip to Disney with the family next month. (We all know that evil businessmen traveling in disguise as leisure travlers deserve no sympathy. After all we aren't really paying for the tix and we're just going to pass the cost along to our customers. So I won't try any sob stories along those lines.)
So back to the family -- 5 tickets MHT -> MCO out on 10/5, back on 10/11. $286.50 each. HE71QN3 on the way down and VE141QN3 on the way back. Or I could go for the $200.50 pure VE141QN3 option... decisions, decisions... but for a $400+ savings I'll go with the pure V option. After all I'm known to be motivated solely by price.
Now I get down there and gosh, something bad happens! Yeah, most customers travel as planned but, like most bags arriving on time, sometimes it just doesn't work out. So it happens. For whatever reason it's 3 hours after the return flight left. Of course I get right on the phone and call the CP desk to find out what my options are. Oh cool! I can buy 5 one way tix for the bargin price of $559! Hey, that's fun. Cost for the family -- about $2,800. We know you have a choice in air travel and we hope to see you on another flight soon!
(If you don't like the wake up late story try something more sympathetic like Johnny fell under a bus and had to be taken to the hospital -- by the time the Doctors said he'd be ok and we got the word that we could go home it was 2am the next day... Or whatever. Use your imagination but don't forget -- no exceptions!)
Or I can avoid this possibility and get the flexibility that I had just a little over a week ago by just buying a nice safe refundable ticket. How much are those fine B8US fares? (I really like the ECONOMY CLASS UNRESTRICTED NORMAL FARE title -- economy indeed!) Same flights, same seats... $1,122.50. Each.
That was a pretty mild example. I could have taken the family to San Francisco. Or Europe.
RealityCheck
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[P]
[P] [/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]I vehemently disagree...[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]Examples..clt lax b8us no advance is 1962 rt,same fare basis used to be near at least 2200 to 2400 rt a few months ago,,by my memory recall. [/P]
[P]Lga Gso..b4aus walkup now 916 rt..was closer to 1100 awhile ago when I booked passgr for last minute[/P]
[P] DC CLT 810 rt 3 day adv..wasnt this closer to 900 awhile back??[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]I could look up fares historically in SABRE 60 days and find many more examples..but I am not at a sabre set now.[/P]
[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]I vehemently disagree...[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]Examples..clt lax b8us no advance is 1962 rt,same fare basis used to be near at least 2200 to 2400 rt a few months ago,,by my memory recall. [/P]
[P]Lga Gso..b4aus walkup now 916 rt..was closer to 1100 awhile ago when I booked passgr for last minute[/P]
[P] DC CLT 810 rt 3 day adv..wasnt this closer to 900 awhile back??[/P]
[P] [/P]
[P]I could look up fares historically in SABRE 60 days and find many more examples..but I am not at a sabre set now.[/P]
