The Benfit Of Negotiating

[737nCH11]

USA320,

Isn't your response to bob owens sort of the pot calling the kettle black? Every time some negative news comes out about UAL you seem to come out of the wood work. I think Bob brings up some valid points.

P.S. When would now be a good time for you to face reality. Tic Toc Tic Toc.....


Warmest regards,


737

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob Owens:

As an AA employee every time the idea of contract changes come up you come out of the woods. Your motives are transparent. Your desire is for US Airways to fail so that AA has less competition.

Tic...Toc...Tic...Toc

Sincerely,

USA320Pilot

I dont remember mentioning that I work for AA.

However I wont deny that I do not work for USAIR.

I think that having transparent motives is a good thing, its the motives that remain hidden that you should be careful of.

Do you really care about whats best for the mechanics who have to scrape by or just trying to preserve your six figure salary?

I dont desire for USAIR to fail I just dont want to see us all dragged down even more as every airline competes to see who can screw their employees the most.

The bleeding must stop. Its time to say NO.

 

[usfliboi]

usfliboi,

"its forced on us in another bk filing"

It's amazing how often you see the spector of another bankruptcy thrown out, even by the "analysts". This form the ATSB loan agreement Section 7.1 Events of Default:

(f) (i) a court shall enter a decree or order for relief in respect of either Group or the Borrower in an involuntary case under the Bankruptcy Code or under any other applicable bankruptcy, insolvency or similar law now or hereafter in effect.

(g) (i) Group or the Borrower shall have an order for relief entered with respect to it or commence a voluntary case under the Bankruptcy Code or under any other applicable bankruptcy, insolvency or similar law now or hereafter in effect, or shall consent to the entry of an order for relief in an involuntary case, or to the conversion of an involuntary case to a voluntary case.

Jim

I think you know what im saying. I think its very clear it is an option.

 

[uza]

The bleeding must stop. Its time to say NO.

Your news letters are famous for the union rhetoric, your chants are never ending and mind dulling, you are forever telling others what to do when it will not affect you personally in a negative way, but only a possible positive.

Let’s do the math. It ends fast and quick in say the next few months, or with additional cuts it goes on for a few years, so where are you ahead living for today taking it all and giving nothing for tomorrow?


You record is no longer skipping it's broken Bob.

 

[Bob Owens]

The bleeding must stop. Its time to say NO.

Your news letters are famous for the union rhetoric, your chants are never ending and mind dulling, you are forever telling others what to do when it will not affect you personally in a negative way, but only a possible positive.

Let’s do the math. It ends fast and quick in say the next few months, or with additional cuts it goes on for a few years, so where are you ahead living for today taking it all and giving nothing for tomorrow?


You record is no longer skipping it's broken Bob.

I've never said to do anything I'm not willing to do.

I urged my coworkers here at AA to reject the concessions, writing and submitting a full page ad for the Tulsa Word and flying into MCI in order to try and reach enough people to reject it. We also mailed a copy to every member of our local. Over 90% in our Local voted NO.
April 6 2003
Dear Fellow Members;
The company has given the “Union†a demand for concessions or they would file bankruptcy. As a result, there is a tremendous amount of information circulating concerning this issue. Unfortunately, as a result of this information it seems that the membership is “impaled on the horns of this [bankruptcy] dilemma.†As a result, consistent with our legal obligation to our members, we are offering this information so you can vote intelligently.
Calculating for the loss of vacation, holiday and sick time, this ratification will immediately lower our present earnings by more than 20%. Moreover, the decline for the next six years will result in our real earnings approximately 40% lower than it is today.
Specifically, What will voting yes provide?
-An immediate 17.5% pay cut.
-Loss of one- week vacation.
-Loss of the accrual of 7 sick days; a ½ pay for the first two sick days used per occurrence.
-Elimination of shift premiums; longevity pay.
-Elimination of OT for training beyond regular shift (training can now be assigned on your day off at straight time, even for four hours).
-Elimination of paid lunch; elimination of penalty hour; elimination of OT meal allowance. -----------Elimination of five holidays with remainder paid at time and ½ instead of double time and ½, elimination of the Pilot cap on Medical benefits (this is the only measure that keeps our health insurance costs in check.
-Elimination of the $12,500 in the event of a layoff.
-Elimination of 70 days off IOD bank.
Other changes to the contract language are still being determined. That’s right, the company and the “union†are still making changes. Voting yes will ensure that none of these issues will be addressed for many years and your income will likely be reduced by around 40% or more by the time the next round of “negotiations†commence.
Voting Yes will not ensure that the company will not go bankrupt
Voting Yes will not protect you job.
Voting Yes will not improve your life.
Voting yes eliminates the possibility that your earnings or lifestyle will not be negatively affected for many years into the future.

What will happen if you vote NO ?
Voting No means that our contract will remain in effect until 2004. But if the company files bankruptcy they have the ability to motion the court to reject all or part of our agreement. A bankruptcy judge may grant the company’s request to reject portions or all of the agreement after considering a number of factors. It is not a guarantee that just because the company files for bankruptcy protection that the court will abrogate our agreement. Even if the judge grants the company’s request would that request be worse than the concessionary demand. That’s debatable, but with the magnitude of the demand it would seem unlikely. The threat being put forth is that if we do not agree to these cuts the company will declare bankruptcy and seek to get its “Vermont†plan implemented. The truth is the majority of what the company is seeking in the “Vermont†plan is incorporated in the proposal that has been put forward to you.

Voting No means that we are not sacrificing over $128,000 to American Airlines or its stockholders.
Voting No means we keep open the possibility of a better future.

The graph above shows how our income has performed against the CPI (Consumer Price Index), a measurement of inflation, since 1983. Since numbers are not available for future rates we used the 30 year average of 3% for illustration purposes. It could be less or much more. Also factored in are the costs of Lost Holidays, Vacation, etc. (It includes the annual 1 ½% raises) When you look at the graph consider that prior to 2001 our pay lagged inflation by nearly seven dollars an hour whereas by the end of this proposal it will lag by nearly double that. For an easy way to consider the impact multiply $13.75 x 40hrs and subtract that from today’s current top rate of $1400/ week. Do you want to live on the equivalent of $43,000/year in today’s dollars in 2009? Do you want to guarantee that your financial situation will be worse for the next six years than it is now?

The Company is maintaining that it is losing $5 million/day. The company has demanded $1.8 billion in concessions from its unionized workforce. $5 million X 365days per year -$1.825 Billion. In other words the company plans to change nothing in its business plan other than slashing wages. This is a cyclical industry and it is obvious that we are in the trough of the business cycle. Demanding that we consent to carry the entire burden, and commit to continue to work under such a burden for a long period of time is unreasonable. We already sacrificed for 6 years while the company enjoyed record profits.
Ratification does not provide ANY positive guarantees. It simply says that they will “try†not to go bankrupt or come back for more. If we ratify the agreement it will cost a mechanic at least $128000 in lost earnings. This is the equivalent of working for free for two years.

The Local Executive board urges our members not to be intimidated into ruining their careers by accepting this Union busting agreement. We urge you to leave open the possibility that once the economy improves we too can share in the benefits of a good economy, something that we missed as a result of the last six-year proposal we accepted.
The proposed Equity stake and profit sharing could never come close to making up the difference of the definite losses these concessions would impose.

We urge you to save your career and reject this proposal. Our recommendation is;

VOTE NO!!
Fraternally;
The Executive Board of Local 562

I believe that everything I've said is truthful and that the strategy of submitting, and submitting will not help. Show me examples where employee concessions over the long term helped those employees to live better lives. Following this strategy we will waste our lives away waiting and hoping for things to get better instead of taking what little control we have and fighting to make it better.

Look at the number $128,000 in lost earnings. Go ahead, do the math.

 

[fatburger]

320,

Everyone has an option. No one is backed into a corner and needs to sacrifice their integrity to save this mess of an airline. Leadership has failed this company once again.

enough is enough, the employees have done their part- management hasn't.

-fatburger-

 

[uza]

Look at the number $128,000 in lost earnings. Go ahead, do the math.

Never said you don't have mettle, but when your company can no longer compete tick for tack standing tall will only kill the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

Look at the number $128,000 in lost earnings. Go ahead, do the math.

Never said you don't have mettle, but when your company can no longer compete tick for tack standing tall will only kill the company.

So when your company is failing you should grovel?

If it is failing then let it fail and move on but demand what you are worth!

 

[Baja4U]

GO BOB, NOOOOOO..... Groveling.....

 

[ClueByFour]

Again, I believe it's better to have a paycheck and benefits while you are looking for a job versus be like Sam Wood and file for personal bankruptcy.

He had a choice. He could have bumped into PIT, but he chose to remain in Tampa. Ergo, you trying to spin that article to support your point. Care to try again, this time being intellectually honest about it?

Or, how about we draw some parallels: why would a pilot who lives somewhere north and east of PIT commute to LGA on a regular basis?

Now, what happens when you are machanic, faced with crappy shifts and commuting about a thousand miles without the benefit of the jumpseat? The mechanic in question could have kept his job--he made a choice completely unrelated to the issue of concessions.

If PIT, for instance, closes and the MEC does not sell the junior guys down the drain (again) for a commuter policy, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on quality-of-life issues, and why somebody might walk away from a job hundreds (or, in Woods' case thousands) of miles away.

It's one thing to advocate a point. It's another to try to spin facts into a situation which is patently false.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Fatburger:

Fatbruger said: 'Everyone has an option. No one is backed into a corner and needs to sacrifice their integrity to save this mess of an airline."

USA320Pilot comments: This has nothing to do with integrity, which Webster’s Dictionary describes as honesty and sincerity. All emotion aside, the marketplace could care less if US Airways survives and there are people to take our jobs.

It's better to look for a job while you have one instead of going "cold turkey". Just look at Sam Woods a 17-year mechanic who is now personally bankrupt.

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[sentrido]

320 didnt read the article

 

[sentrido]

"With his seniority, Wood could transfer to Pittsburgh but he wants to stay in Florida."

 

[fatburger]

320,

The employees have integrity.

Management does not have integrity.

Pretty simple.

Sam chose his path. When UAIR fails, the employees will survive. It's human nature. Emotion aside, even you will be able to find employment outside of aviation.

-fatburger-

 

[USA320Pilot]

737nCh11:

737nCh11 asked: Isn't your response to bob owens sort of the pot calling the kettle black? Every time some negative news comes out about UAL you seem to come out of the wood work. I think Bob brings up some valid points.

USA320Pilot answers: No, with all due respect, they're different. The information I have posted about a US Airways - United corporate transaction has been provided from reliable sources. However, when I post this information you and other United employees venture over to the US Airways board to "shoot the messenger". Then when some of the news I discussed becomes public knowledge I post the information, which is different from Bob Owens' AA diatribe.

Regards,

USA320Pilot