Swa To Get Mediation In F/a Negotiations

[KCFlyer]

KC,

Whats fair? how much should an F/A make? keep in mind, they risk injury everyday (SWA flies into some of the most turbulent Airports in the US like RNO, ABQ, SLC, LAS). They endure long duty days on thier feet. the must be away from family and friends. they even have tolerate pilots. If the don't do the job right, people can die. What's fair? how much should an experienced OAK based F/A make a year? More than a city bus driver? more than a prison guard? SWA is making money (more than can be said for the state of CA). What's it worth?

Bus - I'd be happy to answer that just as soon as you can cite ANY of my 1,166 posts where I have ever made a statement that said what anybody should make. My point on a lot of this is simply this - don't focus on what the other airlines aren't getting (pay for cleaning the plane, pay for ground time, etc.)...focus instead on the "meat" of the issue - the overall pay.

IMHO, taking a hard line to be paid for cleaning the planes, or to be paid for ground time, is a mistake. They should take a hard line on the pay...period. Start throwing in "pay for cleaning the planes" and I wonder what will happen when a customer writes in to complain about a kleenex in the seatback pocket...obviously someone didn't "earn" their plane cleaning pay that day...should the whole FA crew suffer some sort of penalty? And SWAFA30 made one little comment that I feel would be the absolute WORST thing for the FA group....

The 401k match is indeed generous but it does not help keep the rent paid, the lights on and food on the table. Lower the match, increase my hard pay and let me save for my own retirement.

That sounds great in theory, but I think in the long run, that would be one "win" they wish they could call back.

I am probobly more "pro FA" than my posts might show. Unlike the other airlines who can park a plane at an MCI gate for an hour or more, the LUV FA's have to clean a plane and get it loaded up with passengers again in 25 minutes. A lot of times they don't have the opportunity to step out into the airport to grab a sandwich. And "Stepping out" at MCI is not very much fun anyhow, since they not only have to wait in line to get something, they have to reclear security to get back on the dang plane. And MCI is kind of a stopover point for several of their transcon flights. I would imagine they could get a little hungry somewhere between Baltimore and Oakland or Orlando and Portland. So yeah...I have no problem with them getting a pay increase. I think they'll get one, too.

But the thing that really kind of concerns me has taken a break from the AA board and to a lesser extent the UAL and U boards and raised it's head here. Of course I'm talking about the <insert your most hated union name here> discussions. Somehow, I feel like the union, particularly the TWU, feels like they are being watched. So to show their toughness, I fear that they might be willing to sacrifice the good of the Southwest FA's in order to prove to the naysayers at the other airlines that the TWU is not a "company union". Admittedly, I am not privvy to the discussions on either side. All I know is that I have read quotes in papers about FA's working "at poverty level" (which gets my goat...I see people who work at poverty level every day and trust me, if they made what a starting LUV FA makes today, they'd think they'd died and gone to heaven). I have seen the post above where Parker disclosed the companies offer. It looks pretty good to me, but again, I realize he's leaving some things out.

So - bottom line...what's an FA worth? Whatever they can negotiate, with the caveat that if it pushes the company to a loss position, then it was too much. I really don't believe that the LUV FA's want any contract that would be an undue burden on their company. I just hope their union feels the same.

 

[wnfan37]

I really don't believe that the LUV FA's want any contract that would be an undue burden on their company. I just hope their union feels the same.

i'm sure their union doesn't. yes swa has a better "working relationship" with their unions versus the others, but sadly i sense this is just the beginning of labor drama at swa. maybe someone can educate me on what good things a union can do for a company. or, just point to longstanding efforts at DL to keep unions from forming there. say, don't DL F/A's make pretty good money as non-union?

i will comment that while this is obviously a passonate issue for both sides, i do appreciate the points made. thanks for giving this guy some insights - even if we do have differing opinions.

 

[JS]

Originally posted by Busdrvr:
"As far as how far 5 bucks an hour goes in San Francisco, that is not my problem."

Yes it is. Do you want someone who speaks the language driving you? someone with a safe driving record? do you think the hotel should just jack up the cost of the rooms to pay them more?

Yes. Not everyone uses the hotel shuttle, and some people stay more than one night at a time, so if you jack up the hotel rates by a dollar a night, that should easily cover it.

Do you think SWA should raise ticket prices to cover higher, no tipping, payrates for contract drivers (every hotel doesn't have shuttle service)?

Yes. Quite a few tickets pays for one hotel night for an overnight layover, so that would amount to, what, a nickel a ticket? Maybe a dime?

"Some of that is due to the fact that WN doesn't fly to GSP, CLT, AVL, CAE, FLO or ATL (all the airports within a three hour drive of my home, "

If you're gonna be cruel, cheap, and classless on the tipping issue, please claim you're from Jersey. The rest of the south doesn't want you making us look bad.

I thought Northeast liberals were the type of people who spend all day long feeling sorry for everyone else.

Instead of throwing around labels like cruel, cheap and classless, why don't YOU demonstrate how tipping a hotel van driver is a good idea. Also include a comparison to tipping restaurant and bar workers, who earn a substandard hourly wage. A little additional info -- some people tip less than a standard amount at a restaurant. I used to work at a restaurant, and when eating out, I've watched other people toss a couple of quarters on the table when leaving. That deserves the label "cheap".

 

[Busdrvr]

"So - bottom line...what's an FA worth? Whatever they can negotiate, with the caveat that if it pushes the company to a loss position, then it was too much. I really don't believe that the LUV FA's want any contract that would be an undue burden on their company. I just hope their union feels the same"

So lets say, after another "bad economic event", your company can only break even (short term) if every employee works for $1 an hour. Anything else would be a "burden". does that make $1 an hour a burden? I think my state taxes are too high. the salaries of the State employees are a "burden" to me. Should we cut all state employee salaries? The position of F/A should pay a certain amount THROUGHOUT the industry. if you can't be profitable at that level, declare BK. Profits on the backs of unlivable employee wages is something for Mexico of india, no the US (20 bucks an hour IS unlivable for an F/A in OAK).

 

[KCFlyer]

Bussie...I am surprised at you...coming from UAL, where in the midst of bleeding red ink, the cry of "industry leading contract" came from more than one work group. That, IMHO, is what I mean by being a burden to the company.

 

[Busdrvr]

Bussie...I am surprised at you...coming from UAL, where in the midst of bleeding red ink, the cry of "industry leading contract" came from more than one work group. That, IMHO, is what I mean by being a burden to the company.

UAL is no longer "bleeding red ink". but the point of the string is that SWA's F/A's deserve a livable wage REGARDLESS of what it does to YOUR stock holdings. Simple question KC, what do YOU think they should make? (quit dodging the question)

 

[KCFlyer]

UAL is no longer "bleeding red ink". but the point of the string is that SWA's F/A's deserve a livable wage REGARDLESS of what it does to YOUR stock holdings. Simple question KC, what do YOU think they should make? (quit dodging the question)

Talk about dodging the question...after slashing wages and benefits, UAL is no longer "bleeding red ink", but prior to that, the cry went out for "industry leading contracts" from more than one workgroup. That was good for the company in what way?

As I said before, I have yet to EVER post what someone "should" make. I will not start now. You know the sector I work in, and if I had a nickle for everytime someone called us "overpaid" or said what we should be worth, I'd be a rich man. Gosh...I recall some of my past threads where, during the infighting between workgroups, the pilots were called "overpaid bus drivers", I came to their defense. It would have been easy to say "YOu are only worth "X" dollars". If I didn't do it then, why should I start now? The ONLY things I have taken exception to on this topic is in another post where FA pay was called "below poverty level". And I have stated that if anyone with a poverty level income was given the pay of a new-hire FA at Southwest, they would think they had died and gone to heaven. That is a pure and simple FACT.

 

[Fly]

I don't know what SW f/a's make but I can tell you that it is a fact that many flight attendants make "below poverty level" wages. A memo was distributed at UAL telling f/a's (NY comes to mind) not to pick up their food stamps in uniform. That ISN'T living large. I would assume that if the LUV folks could get off the plane to grab a bite to eat, the concession stand won't take their food stamps either. :blink:

 

[KCFlyer]

I don't know what SW f/a's make but I can tell you that it is a fact that many flight attendants make "below poverty level" wages. A memo was distributed at UAL telling f/a's (NY comes to mind) not to pick up their food stamps in uniform. That ISN'T living large. I would assume that if the LUV folks could get off the plane to grab a bite to eat, the concession stand won't take their food stamps either. :blink:

Fly, tell me how many FA's qualify as "poverty level"...bear in mind that these numbers are HOUSEHOLD income:


2003 Poverty Guidelines for the 48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Size of family unit.....................................Guideline
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.......................................................... $8,980
2.......................................................... 12,120
3.......................................................... 15,260
4.......................................................... 18,400
5.......................................................... 21,540
6.......................................................... 24,680
7.......................................................... 27,820
8.......................................................... 30,960
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source - US Department of Health and Human Services.

I see people on a daily basis who qualify. Do you?

 

[Fly]

I see people on a daily basis who qualify. Do you?

Ok, your right. If those are the real numbers, I'd like to see someone live within them. But anywho, a first year f/a for us makes $1427.25 per month, and that's before taxes and medical premiums. So, from now on, I'm making these f/a's buy the rounds after work since they clearly make so much money. Wonder how much after taxes and medical? About $900 take home per month.....that should be easy to get an apartment and food and utilities in New York, agree? Yikes! Does anyone else, besides me, think that is considered pretty darn poor? I wonder how much studio apartments go for in the city (because they have to live in the city because they need public transportation because they don't have enough to afford the luxury of a car and an apartment) Please don't get me wrong, we love our jobs but when an airline like LUV is giving other employee groups the sorts of raises that they are, why not the flight attendants? Considering that almost all comment on how wonderful the flight attendants are there, then obviously the flight attendants actions are causing people to rebook on them time and again....so the f/a's are SERIOUSLY affecting the bottom line....imho.

 

[KCFlyer]

Fly...the numbers are very real. Nobody said it's easy living on it either, but I post them only because I resent "poverty level" being thrown around.

As far as what LUV will or won't give - we've seen numbers in this thread from Parker about what was proposed. We have seen a rebuttal to those numbers from an FA. But we haven't heard if the FA's consider Parkers offer unfair. Obviously there are still some sticking points. We haven't been told what they are. It may NOT be related to the pay scale, but from what I've read it may be related to the duty day. There's two solutions IMHO, either back off some on the duty day demands, or come up some on the pay. Or, ideally, something in between. That's what negotiations are all about.

But you'll notice...as "unfair" as the LUV FA's have been treated, they aren't threatening their customers with CHAOS(tm). For that, they have my utmost respect.

 

[Cart Pusher]

So, KC Flyer, if one makes $9,000 per year, you would not consider that to be a "poverty level" wage? Since the department of Health and Human Services cut off for one person is just less than that I guess that a person making $9000 per year would be able to afford to get by on that in a major city. You know, as well as everyone else here, that the governments head is up their a** in many respects, and apparently when they sat down to define what a poverty level wage is it was still there. NOBODY could get along on their own in any city or town on $9000 per month. I think that a F/A making $15,000 yearly is definetely living with a wage that would send one pummeling shortly into poverty, if not already there. They certainly qualify for many state funded benefits for low income people.

 

[wrx]

Ok, your right. If those are the real numbers, I'd like to see someone live within them. But anywho, a first year f/a for us makes $1427.25 per month, and that's before taxes and medical premiums. So, from now on, I'm making these f/a's buy the rounds after work since they clearly make so much money. Wonder how much after taxes and medical? About $900 take home per month.....that should be easy to get an apartment and food and utilities in New York, agree? Yikes! Does anyone else, besides me, think that is considered pretty darn poor? I wonder how much studio apartments go for in the city (because they have to live in the city because they need public transportation because they don't have enough to afford the luxury of a car and an apartment) Please don't get me wrong, we love our jobs but when an airline like LUV is giving other employee groups the sorts of raises that they are, why not the flight attendants? Considering that almost all comment on how wonderful the flight attendants are there, then obviously the flight attendants actions are causing people to rebook on them time and again....so the f/a's are SERIOUSLY affecting the bottom line....imho.

I totally agree with Fly. Our new hire flight attendants, if we had any start at around $1400.00 per month. This is before taxes and medical premiums. So in reality they probably would take home $800.00 per month if they're lucky. You can't touch Manhattan for under $2000 per month for a decent 1 bedroom apartment. Not to mention when you go out to eat, they charge you full price for a refill on your Coke! All the top major carriers have crew bases in the most expensive cities in America. For instance we have bases in LGA/JFK, BOS, DCA and SFO. We all should just walk into the Employment Development office and apply for food stamps and wear our uniforms! This would really look bad for the carriers. I hope the SWA f/a's get the pay increase they deserve. They really bust their you know whats harder then most of us do. I will support the SWA f/a's 110% to the end. If they strike, I will walk the line with them. UNITY PAYS!

What do you think a flight attendant should make per flight hour? Keep in mind we're safety professionals trained to save lives, evacuate a plane in under 90 seconds (regardless of the size), handle aggressive passengers and now keeping an eye out for the safety and security of the plane. Firefighters start at around $50K per year (safety professionals). Police Officers start at around $48k per year (safety professionals).

 

[KCFlyer]

So, KC Flyer, if one makes $9,000 per year, you would not consider that to be a "poverty level" wage? Since the department of Health and Human Services cut off for one person is just less than that I guess that a person making $9000 per year would be able to afford to get by on that in a major city. You know, as well as everyone else here, that the governments head is up their a** in many respects, and apparently when they sat down to define what a poverty level wage is it was still there. NOBODY could get along on their own in any city or town on $9000 per month. I think that a F/A making $15,000 yearly is definetely living with a wage that would send one pummeling shortly into poverty, if not already there. They certainly qualify for many state funded benefits for low income people.

Cart Pusher - I could live pretty well on $9,000 a month. . I know you meant year, but I posted the HHSA poverty level numbers because I get sick and tired of hearing "we are working at poverty level" when the people spouting that BS have absolutely NO idea of what poverty level is. I even read some quotes in the paper a while back about a TWU spokesman representing the FA's toss out that "poverty level "crap. Now, according to SWAFA30:

A new hire is guaranteed 93.5 hours of pay per month when on reserve. If they are not used while on call...all they have earned for a month on duty is...a whopping $1371.65 BEFORE taxes.

If my math is right, that says that a new hire SWA FA who is not used while on call makes about $16,459.80 before taxes. THAT my friend is significantly MORE than poverty level. FWIW, there was a period in my life where I lived for less than that amount before taxes (in Dallas)...it can be done, albeit, it isn't the most luxurious lifestyle, but I most certainly did not turn to food stamps to help support me, so it CAN be done. I won't "say what an FA should be paid" - it's really none of my business. But in dealing with people who really DO qualify as "poverty" level on a daily basis, I just have to vent when I see that term bandied about.

 

[Fly]

They get 93.5 guarantee on reserve? wow. At UAL the reserves are guaranteed 75 hours per month. At, or slightly above "POVERTY LEVEL"