SWA, FL FA agree on SENIORITY

[BoeingBoy]

And that's applies to virtually all the work groups, except the pilots ofcourse..

Actually, pilots are the odd men (and women) in the airlines. They're the only group who have so much to gain or lose by where they are on a list as opposed to when they were hired. Mechanics make the same whether they're working on a 747 or 737. Agents, baggage handlers, rampers, reservations, even FA's are the same. When you can take vacation, having the holidays off, being on reserve, pay rate, retirement - for pilots they all depend largely on a position on the list and not DOH. For some of those things, moving up the list and being able to hold bigger equipment means going back on reserve or working Christmas. So seniority, as opposed to longevity, means much more to them either way - getting more or getting less.

The US/HP merger was an extreme example - a DOH or longevity integration would mean that furloughed US pilots would be senior to HP 757 captains and they would get all that that would mean.

Jim

 

[AvTech04]

Actually, pilots are the odd men (and women) in the airlines. They're the only group who have so much to gain or lose by where they are on a list as opposed to when they were hired. Mechanics make the same whether they're working on a 747 or 737. Agents, baggage handlers, rampers, reservations, even FA's are the same. When you can take vacation, having the holidays off, being on reserve, pay rate, retirement - for pilots they all depend largely on a position on the list and not DOH. For some of those things, moving up the list and being able to hold bigger equipment means going back on reserve or working Christmas. So seniority, as opposed to longevity, means much more to them either way - getting more or getting less.

The US/HP merger was an extreme example - a DOH or longevity integration would mean that furloughed US pilots would be senior to HP 757 captains and they would get all that that would mean.

Jim

Thats why I agreed to your pervious statement above, except when it comes to the pilots, for all the reasons you explain above.

 

[buscador]

Like you said, only in the airline business can this be possible... If you don't like it, then leave. Because it sounds to me like you hate the "airline business".


You are way off base,, I have spent half my life in the airline biz,,,I love my company and love this biz,,,, your trite comment is laughable,, Lets take a look at your Super Duper Huge money Making company AT that is trying to contractually push SWA around,, at least you mechs showed some gratitude and were willing to give up something,,AT FA's only seem to want Everything,, if you think that is FAIR,,your ???

So lets look at some excerpts at Wall Street Journal(not ATL Journal Constitution i know) and how they seem to agree with AT being a Powerhouse airline line, this Huge Trailblazing, money making monster some are trying to sell the world---

Excerpts--

--Sure, Southwest says it will get valuable experience learning about AirTran's 'near international' flying and its less frequent service to some smaller markets, but there's nothing there worth paying much money for.

Again unlike Southwest, AirTran charges for bags and ticket changes. AirTran charges $15 for a first bag, $25 for a second, and $50 for each extra bag. Southwest allows two bags free, and then charges $50 for extra bags.

AirTran earned about $160 million in bag fees in the last year. Southwest says it will discontinue charging bag fees on its merged

Southwest Negative Synergy - Cost of $210 million/year
Two things we know for sure. Southwest will remove the bag fees and the ticket change fees.

These had represented a $210 million/year income item for AirTran (remember the airline made $135 million profit in 2009 - take away its fee income and the airline is running at a loss)

Firstly, Southwest is planning to buy AirTran for 69% more than its current market valuation. If we accept the market capitalization of AirTran as fairly and accurately reflecting its value as a going concern, today, then Southwest is paying two thirds more than it should - nearly $550,000 over the odds - to buy AirTran. That is, to be polite, a bold move on Southwest's part.

Secondly, the changes Southwest plans to make to the AirTran operation threaten to completely zero out AirTran's profitability, while showing no clear scope for compensatory improvements in revenue generation.

AirTran operationsTicket fees netted AirTran about $50 million in the last year.

They havent even Talked about the %30-40 Payraises SWA is giving AT employees ,,"this is an airline without its fees is running at a loss",, so the Payraises should be in order,because AT was going to give %40 raises next year(if SWA didnt step in), then throw in DOH ,yep That Spells FAIR,,


I am not going to or ever will pretend to understand the numbers the way corporate does,, they are our leadership and we simple employees have to follow,,,, What Bothers me is to buy out a company that has inferior management,makes little to no money(without fees, swa will get rid of those),, overpaying for that company.. then have its employees who now get HUGE Payraises, QOL.. Demanding how they deserve it all,, not one ounce of gratitude(from FA's most I talked too), complain about cleaning a plane and actually working 5 legs a day,,

and after being all giddy over payraises,, then demand our seniority never wondering if they should GIVE a little,,, while SWA employees have to be thankful to maybe get some seniority or hopefully not lose it,,, what bothers me the numerous(not all) UNgrateful AT employees who could care less about the big picture of this NEW company SWA, the acrimony and discontent their greed will cause for the rest of all OUR Careers,,

So go to arbitration,, I can only Hope GK will go to bat for the Employees who Made SWA the Largest Airline in the COUNTRY(pax carried) , just like he did to the Pilots at AT when they DEmanded , show the rest some humility,,,SWA is not AT ,, AT couldnt be SWA ,,contracts,mgmt, benefits, size, or history,, that is the TRUTH and from Wall STreet to mainstreet,, everyone knows it accept AT,, AT seems to have a small airline complex over their in ATL,, shouting and screaming and pretending something you arent,,, so you come and say your time is as good or worth as much,, while SWA employees gain NOTHING,, you get to gain everything,,, NOT FAIR,,,

I wont leave the airline biz,, I love the airline Biz, I love this Company,,,, NONE of us asked for this AT/SWA but when your BOUGHT out and get all The upgrades and think you deserve it all??,, is it too much to ask for some considerations,(not mechs so far) or a little gratitude,,, god forbid FA's had to give up 2.5 years on bidding,,while doubling their salaries,,,, now many FA's at AT are screaming lets go to arbitration and get DOH back,, never once mentioning giving back their lottery ticket winnings

Take your Payraises,,ok,, or TAke your DoH+same contract for 10 years,,OK,,,, but take one or the other,, NOT BOTH,, thats GREED,,,, you wonder why swa employees feel so upset,, kind of hard to welcome someone with open arms when you feel like your being punched in the gut,,, TO Take it ALL,, wow,, go look at your w-2's from 2010,, give up some seniority,,,,cause you will be getting so much more,,

 

[buscador]

M

You got one thing right - only in the airline business. Most companies work by merit or DOH, so your entire argument goes out the window at most companies.

The question of what an arbitrator might do will be equally unpleasing. Within the confines of the law, they can do pretty much anything that they think meets the "fair" standard. If the WN/FL integration of FA's went to arbitration the arbitrator could easily rule that a straight ratio integration OR a straight DOH integration was fair - both worse for the WN FA's than the integration agreement you're complaining about.

You make a big issue of what the WN FA's don't get. But it's all what you already have - the pay, the benefits, the flexibility, etc. You will lose none of that because of the merger. Even seniority - by giving the WN FA's the extra 2.5 years for the list integration they gain seniority. Just picking numbers, the #5000 out of 10,000 WN FA will be no lower than #6125 out of 12,500 - still half way up the list. That FA could be #6000 of the 12,500 - a gain in seniority. Meanwhile the #1250 FL FA (middle of the FL list) could easily be #7000 of the 12,500 on the combined list - a loss of seniority.

It certainly seems that you're only looking at one thing - how many WN FA's are above you on the list vs how many FA's are above you on the combined list, and saying "See, I'm further down the list than I was so I lost seniority." But seniority doesn't work that way. Seniority is your relative position on a list, no matter how many names are on that list. If you're at exactly 50% of WN's list and exactly 50% of the combined list you neither gained nor lost seniority.

Jim

Oh I understand seniority,, I am fortunate that I lose absolutely 0%, gain 20%(means nothing to me, ohhh Mexico overnites I forgot),, it comes down to a smaller company Demanding Seniority after recieving Huge contractual raises,, thats the point most FA's make,, Believe me I understand and have looked at the numbers for atleast 100 FA's,, I tell them to vote not out of fear but if it helps or hurts you... A 5 year FA gets a %50 boost,, a 2.5 year FA gets %100 boost in bidding.... I understand the numbers

The point that most FA's are now screaming, which leads me to my tirades,, seems now that the FA's at AT want it all again.. not sitting well with anyone I talk to,,, AT may be the downfall to the culture at SWA, may not,, may be horrible for the company,, maybe not... I Never plan on moving to ATL, or MCO, I may never have to work with one AT FA, bottom line is most FA's I talk with when hearing AT FA's talking about arbitration do not look kindly at them and feel as they are being robbed!!!,,, i dont care from my postion,, but I can see it from theirs,,

Many say that Gary Kelly has options if FA's want to go to arbitration and take it all,, I dont know wht or how much, I am not that smart,,, but he seemed to have some pull when the AT pilots had to take a package worth $550 million less, and losing over 300 capts seats,, they only have themselves to blame or the 7 mec-NO voters,, who knows,, so 2.5 years is fair to some and not too others,, but if AT FA's decide arbitration and GK does put up fences, does go to bat for SWA, does make it less flexible for the AT FA's,, does create a B scale, or furloughs the 717 FA's,, then whose fault is it for not giving up a little???

I dont know what powers he has, what he would do. But as we have seen when he does decide to Stand Behind the People who built this company, the other side feels some pain,, It would just amaze me if AT voted NO after recieving a better company, better pay and longevity,, but we shall see,, if it goes to Arbitration you may be right, they may gain DOH or even Relative seniority,, we shall see,, If it goes to arbitration there will be a fallout, mark my words,,

Voting starts Tues...

I am only one Voice with only one VOTE

 

[AvTech04]

Well, I'm sorry but I started to doze off half way through your post and didn't pick up everything, I work nights you know. But I did catch a point that you made about losing your culture and the truth is, how I've seen it in person from SWA employees, there really isn't much of a culture to lose... And if there is a "culture" then the only people that can ruin that is yourselves, meaning SWA people. I'm having a hard time believing that this smaller, more "inferior" airline that SWA "purchased" for some in foreseen reason is effecting you so much!! I mean, every single AT employee makes up the bottom half of every senority list with DOH and you're getting more time added but yet you're still unsatisfied?? Hell, maybe AirTran employees should of been greedy and asked for relative senority instead of just DOH, I mean, we are all ####'s in your eyes anyways, might as well give you a real reason to hate us rather than a petty one...

A lot of newspapers state a lot of different opinions, I'm sure I could find an article somewhere that says that AirTran would have been better off without SWA in the long run or that SWA had to purchase Airtran for its own survival, but they would all be just opinions... You take the news as you may and formulate your own opinion about it.

And those fees that you speak of that SWA no longer chargers, they make it up by other means, priority seating, flight rebooking, ticket prices, oversized baggage. Sure, Airtan charged fees and so does every other airline in their own way!! So you honestly think SWA's income is base soley on fares??

 

[buscador]

Well, I'm sorry but I started to doze off half way through your post and didn't pick up everything, I work nights you know. But I did catch a point that you made about losing your culture and the truth is, how I've seen it in person from SWA employees, there really isn't much of a culture to lose... And if there is a "culture" then the only people that can ruin that is yourselves, meaning SWA people. I'm having a hard time believing that this smaller, more "inferior" airline that SWA "purchased" for some in foreseen reason is effecting you so much!! I mean, every single AT employee makes up the bottom half of every senority list with DOH and you're getting more time added but yet you're still unsatisfied?? Hell, maybe AirTran employees should of been greedy and asked for relative senority instead of just DOH, I mean, we are all ####'s in your eyes anyways, might as well give you a real reason to hate us rather than a petty one...

A lot of newspapers state a lot of different opinions, I'm sure I could find an article somewhere that says that AirTran would have been better off without SWA in the long run or that SWA had to purchase Airtran for its own survival, but they would all be just opinions... You take the news as you may and formulate your own opinion about it.





And those fees that you speak of that SWA no longer chargers, they make it up by other means, priority seating, flight rebooking, ticket prices, oversized baggage. Sure, Airtan charged fees and so does every other airline in their own way!! So you honestly think SWA's income is base soley on fares??

I never said all AT people were all #####s,, I have given you credit on many occasions as being level headed..Have I not??.. You have said before that as a show of gratitude you were willing to take a one time hit in seniority, have you not?? even though you think DOH is the best way to merge, correct?? you were willing to compromise,, ,, I have not attacked you ever or told you to leave the airline biz... I have given you personally and the Mechs as a whole credit for trying to be fair,yes??

So am I an #####le to say that the FA's should do the same?? We are all employees and we work for a company, now the Same company,, my point has always been, be fair, understand what you are getting from this Deal as an AT employee,,which is a better contract at a better managed company,, a bigger company that will offer you more, longevity,401k etc??,, so too take a one time hit in seniority isnt like asking for your first born child,, it is a way That AT employees can say, hey, we are getting a Huge benefit, pay raises and we understand that,, so we will give up a one time hit and move on,,, where ever that leaves us so be it(%30 or whatever, something) ,, we all can agree and feel like we took a little pain in this deal.. and move on,, work together to make this New Company a better one,,

I have never said it bothers me that AT gets more money, more QOL,, my contention has always been the lack of appreciation, or gratitude by many like Adasspera who want to tear SWA down and scream or Demand,,

I understand that most at AT think my tirades make me the anti-AT devil, that I am an a##ho##,, but I am not, I dont want to be, never have,, I simply think that if one side benefits a lot, it should be willing to give a little,,, Crazy I know,, but like it or not the Big Biz Deal is done, we the employees at AT/SWA will have to work together for the Rest of our Careers,, to get off on the right foot might be the best approach!!

Many at SWA feel that our company has given a lot to AT , personally as well as possible upgrades comparitively speaking,, I am ,, as you are,, going to move on and to be a great employee at SWA,, so take what you will, go to arbitration, or find a way to make it fair enough... your choice,, its each groups choice,, but the steps taken today will pave the footprints that last the rest of Your Carreers,, You may get Doh, you may even Get relative seniority,,I dont have a crystal ball,, but the approach the AT groups decide in the next month will shape the opinions and mindset(if AT even cares) of the SWA people FOREVER,,, good or bad,, that is simply the realistic way human nature works,,, Most at SWA feel Arbitration is AT s way of trying to take it ALL ,,,without giving up anything!!

I am done with my tirades, our Vote comes out on Tues,, yours comes out soon as well.....I have stated many times that I am only one Voice with Only one Vote,, and that voice and vote will be done Tues...it far to late in this game to make a difference,, most minds are already made up,,

Good luck to us all,, may we find a way to Make SWA a company we all can work at for the rest of our carreers,, for as long or as little as we choose....good night

 

[wnbubbleboy]

Well, I'm sorry but I started to doze off half way through your post and didn't pick up everything, I work nights you know. But I did catch a point that you made about losing your culture and the truth is, how I've seen it in person from SWA employees, there really isn't much of a culture to lose... And if there is a "culture" then the only people that can ruin that is yourselves, meaning SWA people. I'm having a hard time believing that this smaller, more "inferior" airline that SWA "purchased" for some in foreseen reason is effecting you so much!! I mean, every single AT employee makes up the bottom half of every senority list with DOH and you're getting more time added but yet you're still unsatisfied?? Hell, maybe AirTran employees should of been greedy and asked for relative senority instead of just DOH, I mean, we are all ####'s in your eyes anyways, might as well give you a real reason to hate us rather than a petty one...

A lot of newspapers state a lot of different opinions, I'm sure I could find an article somewhere that says that AirTran would have been better off without SWA in the long run or that SWA had to purchase Airtran for its own survival, but they would all be just opinions... You take the news as you may and formulate your own opinion about it.

And those fees that you speak of that SWA no longer chargers, they make it up by other means, priority seating, flight rebooking, ticket prices, oversized baggage. Sure, Airtan charged fees and so does every other airline in their own way!! So you honestly think SWA's income is base soley on fares??

 

[tech2101]

I am done with my tirades,

Good. You have been posting the same thing over and again.

 

[buscador]

Good. You have been posting the same thing over and again.

Repitition is the Mother of Retention,, I have been posting the same thing hoping it may sink in,,Be Fair

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

First of all, what do you want us to "give up"? You keep saying something about how you want us to give something up, but you never say what it is? You deny that you want to staple us, yet that's what you keep implying!

You say you are "not an a##h###", but did you know that's exactly what you sound like when you keep calling FL an "inferior" (your exact words!) carrier?

I just can't wait to fly with you, buscador. Or with any other WN employee who thinks they are God's Own gift to aviation.

And one more thing, since you keep butchering my name. Ad astra per aspera: a Latin phrase meaning "To the stars, through difficulties." Not that I would expect any WN employee to have any idea what that's like. They've never had any difficult sacrifices to make, unless you were hired in the seventies, and I really doubt you were.
Also the state motto of Kansas, where I am from. thanks.

 

[buscador]

First of all, what do you want us to "give up"? You keep saying something about how you want us to give something up, but you never say what it is? You deny that you want to staple us, yet that's what you keep implying!

You say you are "not an a##h###", but did you know that's exactly what you sound like when you keep calling FL an "inferior" (your exact words!) carrier?

I just can't wait to fly with you, buscador. Or with any other WN employee who thinks they are God's Own gift to aviation.

And one more thing, since you keep butchering my name. Ad astra per aspera: a Latin phrase meaning "To the stars, through difficulties." Not that I would expect any WN employee to have any idea what that's like. They've never had any difficult sacrifices to make, unless you were hired in the seventies, and I really doubt you were.
Also the state motto of Kansas, where I am from. thanks.

in·fe·ri·or/inˈfi(ə)rēər/
Adjective:
Lower in rank, status, or quality.


AT is an inferior airline,, that is a FACT,, never said the employees were,,oops maybe I should of used a softer term as to not hurt your fragility,,sorry,,, but on paper, looking at contracts, looking at work rules,, looking at profits,,,looking at History

If you drive a ferrari and I drive a cadillac,, you tell me my car is inferior,, I am a realist and no matter how thin my skin is I have to AGREE,, I would never try to sell you a load of crap trying to tell you other wise,, live with it,, AT has not been RANKED as of the best companies in the country to work for,, AT is not even Ranked as one of the Best AIRLINEs to work for,, WAke up,, if reality is such a hard pill to swallow, then stay in bed

Read my posts,, Inferior doesnt mean Bad,, its just not as good,,doesnt RANK the same as SWA,,, so argue all you want,,but whos work rules, pay, company would 99/100 people rather work for(outside AT employees)..That is...cmon you can say it... SWA and now you work for SWA so positive and appreciative comments would be a nice attitude change,,

I know what -Ad astra per aspera- means

You just cant wait to fly with me???? what does that mean, that you are going to use your charming and affable personality to do ??? or maybe its your rationale and cute Latin monikers you will use to impress me??? or is it maybe you will say, hey thanks for doing your little part in your Many, many years to help make SWA one of the best companies in the Country to work for?? or(very long stretch here, but I will throw it in),,you will say How much you will appreciate what SWA can do for your career???.....just need a little clarification, I would hate to assume anything about you


Post hoc ergo propter hoc-- ,,

Have a Nice Day

 

[NYCDelta]

in·fe·ri·or/inˈfi(ə)rēər/
Adjective:
Lower in rank, status, or quality.


AT is an inferior airline,, that is a FACT,, never said the employees were,,oops maybe I should of used a softer term as to not hurt your fragility,,sorry,,, but on paper, looking at contracts, looking at work rules,, looking at profits,,,looking at History

If you drive a ferrari and I drive a cadillac,, you tell me my car is inferior,, I am a realist and no matter how thin my skin is I have to AGREE,, I would never try to sell you a load of crap trying to tell you other wise,, live with it,, AT has not been RANKED as of the best companies in the country to work for,, AT is not even Ranked as one of the Best AIRLINEs to work for,, WAke up,, if reality is such a hard pill to swallow, then stay in bed

Read my posts,, Inferior doesnt mean Bad,, its just not as good,,doesnt RANK the same as SWA,,, so argue all you want,,but whos work rules, pay, company would 99/100 people rather work for(outside AT employees)..That is...cmon you can say it... SWA and now you work for SWA so positive and appreciative comments would be a nice attitude change,,

I know what -Ad astra per aspera- means

You just cant wait to fly with me???? what does that mean, that you are going to use your charming and affable personality to do ??? or maybe its your rationale and cute Latin monikers you will use to impress me??? or is it maybe you will say, hey thanks for doing your little part in your Many, many years to help make SWA one of the best companies in the Country to work for?? or(very long stretch here, but I will throw it in),,you will say How much you will appreciate what SWA can do for your career???.....just need a little clarification, I would hate to assume anything about you


Post hoc ergo propter hoc-- ,,

Have a Nice Day

Yet, you still haven't answered the question. We've all asked you-what do you think is fair? You will all get seniority added. Nothing will change with your pay/benefits/work rules. The people from AT, once the lists are merged and you are flying under the same contract, will get DOH (which makes most of them junior to most of the WN people) and the same pay/benefits/work rules that you have. All you've said is that you want them to be thankful that they are all getting a 40% raise and gave nothing up. They didn't feel any pain (and frankly neither did you-as you've stated yourself). So, if they just act appreciative, that will make you happy? Let's be honest-you wouldn't vote "no" on a contract for that reason alone. You either want them to lose seniority, or not get the same pay/benefits/work rules that you enjoy. So, which is it?

 

[wnbubbleboy]

Yet, you still haven't answered the question. We've all asked you-what do you think is fair? You will all get seniority added. Nothing will change with your pay/benefits/work rules. The people from AT, once the lists are merged and you are flying under the same contract, will get DOH (which makes most of them junior to most of the WN people) and the same pay/benefits/work rules that you have. All you've said is that you want them to be thankful that they are all getting a 40% raise and gave nothing up. They didn't feel any pain (and frankly neither did you-as you've stated yourself). So, if they just act appreciative, that will make you happy? Let's be honest-you wouldn't vote "no" on a contract for that reason alone. You either want them to lose seniority, or not get the same pay/benefits/work rules that you enjoy. So, which is it?

NYCDelta

We are the reason for the success. AT folks are joining us and will benifit from the contracts we negotiated. In my case as a Material Specialist AT folks are getting DOH as seniority. Now we have been Teamsters for many, many contract cycles. There are folks who have paid dues much longer that the AT people joining us who only have been teamsters since 2005. So you have dues paying members who have been paying for years more (to the Teamsters) than the AT folks have but will have less seniority. In addition, they are getting a around 10$ an hour raise.

So a hug or a handshake would be nice. Then we can move on.

bb

 

[NYCDelta]

So a hug or a handshake would be nice. Then we can move on.

bb

That's fine-but I doubt the person I was referring to (a flight attendant) would vote "yes" because of a hug or a handshake. He/she wants something-we're just trying to figure out what it is.

 

[wnbubbleboy]

That's fine-but I doubt the person I was referring to (a flight attendant) would vote "yes" because of a hug or a handshake. He/she wants something-we're just trying to figure out what it is.

I hear you NYC.

Those are the folks who will make it hard on everyone when we all start sharing the WN blue uniforms.

I hope some after shift beers and time can solve that rift....because we are all in this "shot gun" wedding, like or not. I am hopeful that we can work it out and show through example, that we are successful because of our culture. That is no kool aid either..lived it know it's here....


bb