Survey shows Delta lags behind on "brand respect"

[WorldTraveler]

no, see you want to believe that DL doesn't listen to its employees and imposes its own will regardless of what the employees want... and that is CATEGORICALLY wrong.

DL DOES listen to its employees and provides compensation and benefits programs based on those desires.

You can say that process is not negotiating but DL employees DO sit in the same room with company management regarding compensation issues and do fill out surveys and forms saying what matters.
Further, DL has DUAL processes that work similarly - for unionized workers and for non-union workers.  The unionized workers participate in the same surveys - but the contractual issues are part of the union's responsibility.  

You don't want to believe the process works without a union because if you acknowledge it does, then the labor movement has no value.

I got news for you, buddy. There are companies that do listen to their employees, the employees do provide input regarding compensation issues, and the company even goes so far as to help determine priorities.

That is NO DIFFERENT than what a union does with its members before it goes before the company.

The company just happens to do the process DIRECTLY with its employees.

You are seriously out of touch if you can't grasp that the world works in more ways than just the ones you place your faith in.

The mere fact that the labor movement continues to shrink and whatever gains the labor movement has made are being undone should say that American workers place less and less faith in the ability of the labor movement to deliver what American workers and their families need.


And lest I remind you, airlines have pretty well done whatever they want with their labor contracts over the past 10 years, ripping them up AT WILL and rewriting them in whatever form the airlines have wanted.

Now, even government worker employment contracts are pretty well meaningless in terms of providing the protection that the unions have promised they would provide.

 

[metopower]

Heavier 330 do not exactly translate to greater range that will equal what would require 14 hr plus flights. What you gain is high weight carry for same dist. And better takeoff ability. JFK to Hong Kong has been rumoured but not lax . The crew rest area can be revisited but not if fleet commonality is the goal. Maybe if DL had ordered the 332 heavy weight a/c I could see a sub fleet configuration.The crew rest arbitration just was settled with a loss by ALPA simply because DL stated that the future intention would be 12hrs and less for 330 flying.So 4 pilot crew rest became moot.But thing can change. However I do not see 40 a/c reconfigured after a major mod for those few routes

 

[700UW]

How did the employees negotiate with Delta during leadership 7.5 and chapter 11?

Ripping them up at will?

Don't know what legal system your talking about as that doesn't exist. Make up more lies.

It took chapter 11 bankruptcy section 1113c process for that too happen, which for es a company and a union to NEGOTIATE, they just cant abrogate.
keep lying.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thanks for the info on the crew rest arbitration... but I think it went on for quite some time before the present order.

From what I understand, there are actually very few changes to the 330 to provide the extra TOW - heavier brakes but not significant changes to the structure. It is also possible that the use of composites could actually lower the aircraft weight... and DL is also doing the entire cabin rework in part to replace seats, galleys, and lavs with lighter materials.

The current 333s have flown LAX-NRT during the summer which is blocked at just under 12 hours. The increased weight of the "enhanced" 333 adds at least an hour's worth of range to the aircraft, and maybe up to an hour and a half based on a full pax load. I also believe SEA-PEK and PVG even on the slower 767 are blocked for over 12 hours westbound which would mean 4 pilots.

I see little reason why DL would have bought the enhanced 333 if they intend to use it only for sub-12 hour flights.

I suspect you will see the entire 330 fleet reconfigured with 2 pilot crew rest... or at least the 332s and enhanced 333s.

Am I right that DL cannot operate the 332 on a 14 hour flight w/o two lie-flat pilot bunks? If so, then something is changing by next summer because SEA-HKG is scheduled with a 332 for 14+ hours.

 

[WorldTraveler]

How did the employees negotiate with Delta during leadership 7.5 and chapter 11?

More effectively than the employees at their network carrier peers during BK.

The simple fact is that the notion that airlines can do what they want has been true with unions or not, precisely because of BK.

The difference with DL is that they have generated enough cash to be able to increase pay and benefits, asked their employees what mattered to them (which is why the employees (at least some of them) are gaining the 5th week back even though the company said they wouldn't ever do it), and DL is passing out pay raises faster and larger than what their unionized peer airlines have done.

The notion that unions obtain something that non-represented employees cannot get is just not born out in reality.

DL's best weapon in arguing against unions has been in showing what the most heavily unionized legacy airlines have done to their employees.

And, again, you want to hold onto what happened 20 years ago during 7.5 but the vast majority of those people have moved on or are well beyond being vulnerable to anything else at this point in their careers.

Employees are focused on what happens now.. and they see US employees stuck at the bottom of the pay scale, AA employees fighting as they lose more, and UA employees slowly gaining back some of what they lost but losing a lot of scope thru more and more outsourcing.

 

[700UW]

All ready have the 5th week at unionized US Airways.

And Kevin has showed you many times that the pmnw faired better in chapter 11 than pmdl.

Keep up the liesUS overhauls more of its own fleet inhouse than any other carrier now that AA farms out now and the IAM at US has a DBP, you don't have that at DL now do you?

 

[737823]

I don't understand why Kev keeps slamming DL for not having mainline ramps in some stations when his very own IAM allowed NWA to outsource many of the same stations. A sticking point seems to be BDL and MIA, neither of which had mainline NWA employees at the time of the merger. And as 700 has said before regarding IAM outsourcing "no one is guaranteed a job in a specific city, that is the nature of the business".

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

What's not to understand?

 

[737823]

Why you blast DL for not having mainline ramps in some cities (is BDL and MIA) when your very own IAM gave those away, and is doing the same at UA outside of BK. As it is DL is on track to have more mainline ramps than UA based on the IAM T/A or TWU (~17 odd stations) at AA.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

It's been explained to you in multiple threads; I can't make it much clearer than I already have.

 

[WorldTraveler]

All ready have the 5th week at unionized US Airways.

And Kevin has showed you many times that the pmnw faired better in chapter 11 than pmdl.

Keep up the liesUS overhauls more of its own fleet inhouse than any other carrier now that AA farms out now and the IAM at US has a DBP, you don't have that at DL now do you?

And the 5th week of vacation benefits a relative handful of senior employees which is part of why DL has provided better benefits and increased vacation at other seniority levels than their peers at unionized airlines. DL employees got their 4th week of vacation sooner than NW provided it, IIRC.
Kev and I have debated about who fared better in BK but there is no evidence at all to support that NW employees fared better.
In fact, more of them were laid off, largely because of the AMFA issue and, specific to FA’s, the NW FA compensation on average fell 19% in BK compared to 16% for DL FAs.
The data is all available including for other workgroups at the airline data project of MIT.
The data also clearly shows that US has the highest amount of total maintenance outsourcing among US network carriers but you want to conveniently limit the definition of overhaul to airframe overhauls so that you can come up with a single winning statistic. Problem is that the IAM contract left a wh.ole so big that US can outsource about 75% of the rest of its maintenance operation…. If you consider it a great win to retain jobs for a select few at the expense of much higher layoffs for a far larger group of people, then it is no wonder that you can’t convince DL employees that you have anything to offer them – because you don’t

Why you blast DL for not having mainline ramps in some cities (is BDL and MIA) when your very own IAM gave those away, and is doing the same at UA outside of BK. As it is DL is on track to have more mainline ramps than UA based on the IAM T/A or TWU (~17 odd stations) at AA.
Josh

And again, DL has more “upstairs” airport employees than many, many other airlines. While the focus here seems to be on below wing employees, the simple fact is that DL protected many more stations than their peers at other airlines, including at NW where the IAM forced the company into keeping the entire airport as NW-staffed or outsourced it all. DL had no such policy or restriction and kept far more people in the city where they worked at the time - and again, 7.5 happened almost 20 years ago.

 

[737823]

WT, remember those stations were still IAM staffed just not NWA staffed. Air Wisconsin (ZW) is their preferred outsourcing partner, IAM still collects dues while NWA got the headcount reduction they wanted. Win-win for both businesses.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

I did not know that... thanks

 

[700UW]

Wrong the IAM cba has the best scope language in the industry, no line maintenance can be outsourced and only 50% of billable hours in overhaul can be outsourced, I am not home, I will post the language later.

Components can be outsourced and that doesn't count.

Once again US overhauls more of its fleet in-house than any other airline.

 

[metopower]

thanks for the info on the crew rest arbitration... but I think it went on for quite some time before the present order.

From what I understand, there are actually very few changes to the 330 to provide the extra TOW - heavier brakes but not significant changes to the structure. It is also possible that the use of composites could actually lower the aircraft weight... and DL is also doing the entire cabin rework in part to replace seats, galleys, and lavs with lighter materials.

The current 333s have flown LAX-NRT during the summer which is blocked at just under 12 hours. The increased weight of the "enhanced" 333 adds at least an hour's worth of range to the aircraft, and maybe up to an hour and a half based on a full pax load. I also believe SEA-PEK and PVG even on the slower 767 are blocked for over 12 hours westbound which would mean 4 pilots.

I see little reason why DL would have bought the enhanced 333 if they intend to use it only for sub-12 hour flights.

I suspect you will see the entire 330 fleet reconfigured with 2 pilot crew rest... or at least the 332s and enhanced 333s.

Am I right that DL cannot operate the 332 on a 14 hour flight w/o two lie-flat pilot bunks? If so, then something is changing by next summer because SEA-HKG is scheduled with a 332 for 14+ hours.