Survey shows Delta lags behind on "brand respect"

[metopower]

I can only comment on what I know. Lax - nrt was before the settlement of arbitration .Gross weight and advertised performance does not equal actual implementation. Gross weight and takeoff performance to me is not range but pax and cargo. What is in a seating chart or oag can be changed. Plus cruise of the 767 and a330 can be about the same. It is all about what penalty you are willing to accept.

 

[737823]

Wrong the IAM cba has the best scope language in the industry, no line maintenance can be outsourced and only 50% of billable hours in overhaul can be outsourced, I am not home, I will post the language later.

Components can be outsourced and that doesn't count.

Once again US overhauls more of its fleet in-house than any other airline.

Great. We are talking ramp/fleet service, not M&R do you know there is a difference between the two? The IAM did sign away many stations at NWA and many went to ZW.

With an agreement like the US-IAM agreement the costs are so low the gains from outsourcing are minimal.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Yep, we lost some stations going through 1113 wringer- much more than I would've liked.

But we also kept *many* more than the company wanted. That simply wouldn't have happened if we weren't represented.

At any rate, now that the honeymoon's over, I suspect we'll start seeing stations get whacked. They'll distract everyone with potential raises, then very quietly "transition" the FNT & GRB's of the world to a 3PP...

Somewhere on this site, a poster talked about learning to pet a bunny before breaking it's neck; it's a perfect analogy...

 

[737823]

But you must agree with 700s assertion that no one is guaranteed a job in a particular city...

How can UA have mainline employees to this day at ALB, MDT, ROC, etc but not MIA and at one point STL? I get all airlines have different strategies and markets that are strong suits but seriously in 2013 it's hard to imagine UA keeping those stations open. Could it be they had disproportionally senior workers and didn't want to pay top scale and give away so much vacation time?

And Kev you still haven't explained how it is good DL 141 agreed to such pathetic scope, pay and medical. As I said before, UA is not bankrupt they have stabilized and are becoming profitable. If the PCE and ramp agreements were viable in 2005-2009, no merger synergies, lower RASM why did the IAM give so much away?


Josh

 

[Kev3188]

How can UA have mainline employees to this day at ALB, MDT, ROC, etc but not MIA and at one point STL?

You're gonna have to ask someone that works at UA, or is at least much closer to the operation than I am. Why were they still there? Good scope, is the short answer. I'd also add that that being cross-utilized when done right is quite efficient. After that? I dunno... Nor do I know why they decided to whack them now...

And Kev you still haven't explained how it is good DL 141 agreed to such pathetic scope, pay and medical.

To explain why that T/A was good, I'd have to state that it was good in the first place, right?

 

[robbedagain]

josh alb mdt roc etc for ua is being outsourced if they have not already been done so...

kev does dl have a certain nmbr of flight reductions before they go and hammer the stations away or how does it work for them

of course even though im just as guilty as anyone else on here but the title is the survey shows dl lagging but its side tracked i apologie for my part of it

 

[737823]

To explain why that T/A was good, I'd have to state that it was good in the first place, right?

Obviously its a rhetorical question, the UA T/A sucks. Again they have already given away tremendous leverage to the company. Answer this truthfully, what message does it send the newly organized CO agents (outside the seven stations) who now find out they joined a union only to have their job systematically eliminated?

And how can good SCOPE be the answer if UA is succeeding in outsourcing? You must be joking. Again, the only surprise to me is that if the language allowed UA to outsource why have they waited this long to do so?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

josh alb mdt roc etc for ua is being outsourced if they have not already been done so...

kev does dl have a certain nmbr of flight reductions before they go and hammer the stations away or how does it work for them

of course even though im just as guilty as anyone else on here but the title is the survey shows dl lagging but its side tracked i apologie for my part of it

No threshhold(s) whatsoever.

How does it work for them? They can do whatever they want, whenever they want...

 

[Kev3188]

Obviously its a rhetorical question, the UA T/A sucks. Again they have already given away tremendous leverage to the company. Answer this truthfully, what message does it send the newly organized CO agents (outside the seven stations) who now find out they joined a union only to have their job systematically eliminated?

And how can good SCOPE be the answer if UA is succeeding in outsourcing? You must be joking. Again, the only surprise to me is that if the language allowed UA to outsource why have they waited this long to do so?

Josh

Like I said, I dunno how they're still open. My guess is/was the language about having to staff if there was M/L equipment being flown in. I saw CVG is all Express now, maybe the others are as well? You tell me...

What message does it send? It send the message that they need new officers. It also send the message that the union is you; with certain rights come responsibility to get involved.

 

[737823]

Figures, just like the IAM propaganda (don't have the link handy) explaining why the UA employees voted down the T/A. Like yourself they spun it as a member empowerment/engagement in the process, not the fact that if was an insult of an agreement.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

josh check out iam141.org thanks kev for the info

 

[WorldTraveler]

I can only comment on what I know. Lax - nrt was before the settlement of arbitration .Gross weight and advertised performance does not equal actual implementation. Gross weight and takeoff performance to me is not range but pax and cargo. What is in a seating chart or oag can be changed. Plus cruise of the 767 and a330 can be about the same. It is all about what penalty you are willing to accept.

Thanks, Meto.
I do know that LAX-NRT was pushing the limits of the 333 and it was only used in the summer so I am pretty confident that was the effective limit of that aircraft…..
Perhaps you know, but I don’t think the 333 enhancements add weight to the aircraft like what the LR did compared to the ER, but I haven’t heard the weights and Airbus hasn’t published them.
Thus it would seem that increasing the MTOW w/ no increase in the OEW should result in greater range, assuming the MTOW was limiting range which appeared to the case - or what am I missing?.

I am hoping for the sake of DL and for the sake of the pilot group that DL bought airplanes that can fly 12+ hours because it means more routes can be opened and more pilots will be needed. A plane that is limited to 12 hours doesn’t really accomplish much on the Pacific; DL has even pushed 767s over the 12 hour line in order to serve some of the routes it needs to open so that is why I am hoping the 333 will lead to more Pacific growth…. More pilots… etc.

Given that these planes are coming pretty quickly, I expect we’ll know fairly soon – and I would still bet the 333s will be back on LAX-NRT next summer since the main reason they were pulled off is because they didn’t have lie flat business class this summer and DL made the commitment that all Pacific routes would have lie flat business class.

But we also kept *many* more than the company wanted. That simply wouldn't have happened if we weren't represented.

At any rate, now that the honeymoon's over, I suspect we'll start seeing stations get whacked. They'll distract everyone with potential raises, then very quietly "transition" the FNT & GRB's of the world to a 3PP...

Somewhere on this site, a poster talked about learning to pet a bunny before breaking it's neck; it's a perfect analogy...

Yes, I know the IAM was successful in saving stations compared to what NW had asked for, but I think you are making a jump in logic to assume that the relationship that existed between NW and IAM is the same type of relationship and economics that exists with DL. Neither are the case.

I think you also assume that DL will drop the hatchet because you believe they can get away with it now – but it is far more likely that they would have made the cuts if they thought they needed to do so based on economics.

ANC and the freighter operation was a very early cut that DL made; that was not something they would have done if they were afraid that labor was watching.

How can UA have mainline employees to this day at ALB, MDT, ROC, etc but not MIA and at one point STL? I get all airlines have different strategies and markets that are strong suits but seriously in 2013 it's hard to imagine UA keeping those stations open. Could it be they had disproportionally senior workers and didn't want to pay top scale and give away so much vacation time?

The main reason why UA can’t support mainline employees in many cities is because they don’t carry anywhere near the number of passengers from medium and small size cities that DL does. UA’s network is much more heavily focused on the local market in their hubs rather than on connecting traffic THRU their hubs. UA’s abundance of RJs in smaller cities completely explains this. Remember, even at ORD, UA has twice as many RJ flights as they have mainline flights.

The economics of UA’s operation are much more heavily concentrated in their largest markets compared to DL and thus the people have to be placed where the money is made.

No threshhold(s) whatsoever.

How does it work for them? They can do whatever they want, whenever they want...

And again, they also have the freedom to retain cities that have fallen below what other carriers have used as the threshold for outsourced airport personnel.

It is precisely now that the 717s are arriving with bases in ATL and DTW that it should be obvious that many cities will be staffed with mainline personnel working mainline flights that were only RJs a few years ago. When I walk thru the domestic concourses at ATL, esp. in the evening, I often take a double take at some of the cities that have mainline service that didn’t a few years ago. That seem trend will spread to DTW and perhaps NYC with those hubs connected to cities throughout the eastern US.

And once again, I understand your focus is on restoring and protecting ramp jobs but DL still has many of its own people at airports that other airlines have left to subcontractors… and it is precisely as the 717s arrive and DL has mainline personnel, that DL’s service will be perceived as more valuable and even more traffic will shift to DL.

DL is building on the historic small and medium size strength that DL and NW both had from their networks and are able to protect staff accordingly.

 

[Kev3188]

Figures, just like the IAM propaganda (don't have the link handy) explaining why the UA employees voted down the T/A. Like yourself they spun it as a member empowerment/engagement in the process, not the fact that if was an insult of an agreement.

Josh

It's not spin. They were empowered to say "F no" to that T/A (or yes, if they really wanted). My coworkers and I do not have that same option should something similar come to pass here.

I think you also assume that DL will drop the hatchet because you believe they can get away with it now – but it is far more likely that they would have made the cuts if they thought they needed to do so based on economics.

I don't think they felt we were pliant enough yet. Lots of little "tests" across the system to see just how far they can push. We'll see how it goes...

ANC and the freighter operation was a very early cut that DL made; that was not something they would have done if they were afraid that labor was watching.

I think people "get" retiring the 74F's- and remember, the A/C leaving the fleet and the closure of the facility did not go hand in hand.

And once again, I understand your focus is on restoring and protecting ramp jobs but DL still has many of its own people at airports that other airlines have left to subcontractors…

...And vice versa...

 

[WorldTraveler]

recount for me the actions regarding the people supporting the freighter operation - including closing the ANC hub - and the removal of the aircraft. I can't see how the two events could have been dramatically far apart in time.

And those personnel did have the right to take positions elsewhere on the DL system, which again does not involve bumping personnel out of an existing position but does involve protecting personnel or a severance package.

I still want to see the list of stations that DL has its own personnel compared to AA and UA, esp. after the AA cuts are made.
And let's be honest that AA has a significant headcount overage that will have to be dealt with as part of the merger, even after the TWU station cuts are completed.

Can you tell me how many stations DL has its own 125 personnel in?

 

[Kev3188]

Freighters were gone at the end of '09. You can do your own Googling, but I'm gonna say it was about a 2 year(ish) spread between the 2 events?