Still Want To Vote No?

[700UW]

Near the end, he said something about taking someone from their desk and hanging them from the highest hangar in Dallas. That might be enough.

I hope he gets the help he needs and I pray for his family.NW and AMFA.

 

[Vortilon]

Well, I would say depending on what happens now, with how the company treats him or the union defends him - he may have grounds for some kind of lawsuit.

 

[Bob Owens]

What many seem to forget is that we continue to negotiate, Its not as if it stops.

Ubder the new rules AA is supposed to exit BK within 18 months of entering it, the Pilots and Flight Attendants are taking it to the Judge. What many dont realize, and the transcripts wont be available till around two weeks after our vote is counted, too late for many Yes voters, is that AA's business plan has them earning around $3billion a year in profits, they are demanding $1.25 billion from us, not so they can remain a viable company, but so they can become the most profitable airline ever. I was there, I heard what the company said in their opening staement, over $360 million a year in Profit Charing for us when they get out. Keep the BS profit sharing and just pay us a fair wage and who knows, they may even make more!

AA said other things in court as well, in addition to the profit sharing they were giving us raises, yet the International claims that we will not get them if we vote no.They took it off the term sheet, it must have been there April 24 when they told the Judge about it. Brundage supposedly put out a letter saying that we wont get anything it we vote it down, supporting the Internationals position to remove the wage increases from the term sheet, The committee said to leave it in, we knew they would do what they wanted anyway, to make you think that you wont get what the company told to the court you would get when they abrogate the deal. Remember the people who edited and removed all the stuff that was in the term sheet presented to the court do not have to live under the deal and a NO vote means more work and more expense and possibly having to go back to their box for them, they dont have to live ub=nder it if it gets voted in. Remember Brundage (the brick guy) is the same guy who said only a handful of guys would be affected by terminating the pension and dumping it in the PBGC, well I guess when the PBGC threatened to expose that AA's plan had them earning around 17% profit margins they backed off, then told us that many many more people would be affected so "out of the goodness of their hearts" and Jim Littles "Line in the sand" they decided to Freeze the pension instead. If the debtor agrees to not shed its single biggest debt it makes you wonder if the whole thing is a sham. I dont, I'm sure of it. When they crafted C-11 I dont think the intent was to create super profits at the expense of workers but that has become what its used for.

Do you want to give up what comes out to 20% of your compensation for the NEXT SIX YEARS to fund AA managements dream of a $3billion a year profit margin? I dont. Vote NO

 

[Hopeful]

Good point...Even if we start negotiations anew and even if it takes months, maybe years again, if the company starts showing substantial profits, that would be beneficial to have negotiations ongoing during that period.

Everyone should remember the 1995 contract where we were locked in to a 6% over 6 year deal. There were some prety profitable quarters during those 6 years.

 

[Bob Owens]

Near the end, he said something about taking someone from their desk and hanging them from the highest hangar in Dallas. That might be enough.

I hope he gets the help he needs and I pray for his family.

No he didnt, he said hang his desk.

 

[dc10boy]

Guys this will be a long reply, but in it I will outline what we gain and lose in our vote.For some reason the TWU is not telling the truth and engaging in clear psychological manipulation on their "what does my vote mean" page.the left side referencing a yes vote is in green. Green, good , go yes.The right side of the page referencing a no vote is in red.Red, Stop, bad, no go.TWU is saying that if we reject this we have no contract.This is a lie.Our contract will be modified to the terms of the term sheet.The RLA does not want a contractual vacuum.There has never been a complete shredding of an airline contract.In every case there has been immediate negotiations, and many cases the parties have agreed to remain status quo.Some TWU officials are trying to correct this clear manipulation of truth, and campaign of fear.
As for the term sheet imposed? There has been legal precedent set both ways.Ms. Levine has made it clear she thinks the Frontier precedent will be used, but Will fight.So should we.The TRUTH is that there is really little difference between these 2 term sheets.Neither contains language that protects or preserves jobs.Outsourcing caps?How will they be enforced?Can AA even outsource to those levels?Again like 03 we are being threatened ...Concessions for jobs! In 03 we gave the concessions,The jobs went away anyway.Did we learn anything?Both term sheets remove the Eagle ASM cap, allowing AA to run an UNLIMITED PARALLEL OPERATION utilizing low paid workers.NO other airline has this, and if we allow it, we will again initiate the free fall of our profession and threaten the careers of our UAL, DAL USair brethren as those carriers move to compete.Also we will severely undermine the position of our pilots, who are fighting the battle to preserve our scope clause.This is one if the most important fights we face together.They are not folding.They are taking this to the Judge.So should we.If it is allowed AA could outsource most if not all of its domestic network to Eagle.According to our local president the company steadfastly refuses to commit the A319 order to AA.They want to hand it over to eagle.You want to talk job losses and jobs saved?THERE IS NO LANGUAGE IN THE LBO THAT REALLY PROTECT JOBS.AA CAN LAY OFF WITHOUT PENALTY IN EITHER TERM SHEET.I will continue in a subsequent post.

 

[TWU informer]

Someone needs to make t-shirts with Dennis Barnetts' face on it.
Along with

"Dennis Barnett is RIGHT!

The guy deserves our gratitude for having guts to stand up and say what many are thinking.

 

[dc10boy]

As for medical benefits.....Both Term sheets have us Virtually uninsured.$1000 deductible? $4000 out of pocket max? That's just for you, If your family is sick or injured you could be on the hook for over $10,000 !The worst benefits in the industry.Why would we even think about accepting this.AND IT LASTS FOR 6 YEARS MINIMUM!
Mr. Owens asked some great questions, written far better then I ever could. I'd like to share them
"How is eliminating PVs necessary for the reorganization of the company when pretty much All of AAs competitors have DATs or other similar forms of Personal day flexibility?
How is rewriting all the OT rules necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is terminating an employee for not accepting a transfer necessary for the reorganization of the company?
Ho...w is reducing vaction another week necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is eliminating letters of agreements on Holidays necessary for the reorganization of the company?
How is it a necessity that we accept less than half the Holidays at half the rate?
How is it a necessity that we allow the company to pick who gets OT, who goes on Field Trips?
How is it a necessity that we allow the company to take money thats in a seperate trust outside the company from our accounts?
How is it a necessity that we accept the worst 401k plan in the industry?
How is it a necessity that we pay more for Medical than any other airline worker?
How is it a necessity that we have no job protection language?
How is it a necessity that we allow AMR to run an unlimited parallell operation?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of vacation in the Industry?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of sick time?
How is it a necessity that we accept the least amount of IOD time?
AA says we need to do this because they need to make $3billion a year in profits.
How is it a necessity that we accept the lowest wages in the industry, what AA is offering us in 2018 is less than what UAL and most other are making now.
How is it a necessity that AA needs to make $3billion a year in profits to remain in business when in over 75 years of existance they have never made such profits, in fact no airline has?
The fact is that according to their business plan AA does not have to touch ANY labor agreement. Their plan says they will make $3billion in profits with the $1.25 billion in labor cuts. So by eliminating the leases on airplanes they dont fly and other changes they were able to make in BK they would be making $1.75 billion a year in profits without touching any of the labor agreements. $1.75 billion, thats more than half of what the entire industry posted in 2010! "
VOTE NO! DO NOT GET STUCK WITH THIS FOR 6 YEARS!
research the history, the law,follow the courtroom testimony.
TWU is NOT telling you the full truth.Send this back to the judge like UAL did.
If they truly want this to happen force him to do this to us.Let's not do this to ourselves.
I will continue.

 

[TWU informer]

Dennis Barnett had the balls to SAY what we are all thinking!

 

[TWU informer]

Dennis Barnett had the balls to SAY what we are all thinking!

 

[dc10boy]

The reason I posted Bob's questions is this.The company must meet a 9 point burden of proof they need to reject our CBA in court.Most reliable reports are showing the company having a hard time justifying the depth of their demands.They clearly have overreached.This case is clearly different then others.No airline has ever sought BK protection with over 4 Bil. in the bank.No airline has ever sought to attack the lowest paid workers in the industry the way AA has.A Ruling to reject our CBA is NOT a certainty.In every 1113 case I could research, the Judge sent the parties back to the negotiating table to reach consensual agreement before he would rule.This is the most likely outcome of a NO vote. As I've stated before... WE ARE NOT HELPLESS.our leverage is this....AA wants out of BK ASAP.Doug Parker is pushing them harder.NO AIRLINE HAS EVER EXITED CH.11 WITH IMPOSED AGREEMENTS ON THEIR WORKERS.They will negotiate a better deal.the creditors will demand labor peace.A yes vote forfeits this leverage, and shamefully gives away any hope for a better future.Because we were scared.Because we let FEAR influence our ability to think clearly."courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important then fear"This quote directly applies to us.
for those who think we will again be mired in negotiations for years with nothing to show for it.Not this time.there is a time limit in BK.It will need to move rapidly.
Bottom Line
1.There is little difference between the term sheet and LBO
2.There are no REAL job protections in either, and major job losses hidden (and out in the open) in both
3.Neither gives us anything of value, both take benefits devastate our profession, and our futures.
A yes vote removes all our remaining leverage, we surrender.Truly shameful
A no vote continues the fight.A no Vote allows the judge to see what AA has done to us.A no vote allows our expert legal team to fight for us.A no vote allows us to STAND UP FOR OURSELVES like the pilots and F/As are doing.They are fighting for themselves why wouldn't we?A NO vote gives us the chance for a better deal and a better future.
Don't piss this away.

 

[FWAAA]

What many seem to forget is that we continue to negotiate, Its not as if it stops.

Ubder the new rules AA is supposed to exit BK within 18 months of entering it, the Pilots and Flight Attendants are taking it to the Judge. What many dont realize, and the transcripts wont be available till around two weeks after our vote is counted, too late for many Yes voters, is that AA's business plan has them earning around $3billion a year in profits, they are demanding $1.25 billion from us, not so they can remain a viable company, but so they can become the most profitable airline ever. I was there, I heard what the company said in their opening staement, over $360 million a year in Profit Charing for us when they get out. Keep the BS profit sharing and just pay us a fair wage and who knows, they may even make more!

You have posted the $3 billion number more than once and I'm curious how you arrived at that number.

 

[MCI transplant]

AMEN!!!

 

[amtide]

No vote from me. Afraid of manipulation with phone vote.

 

[wrencher]

If you haven't read this yet:

Important Questions and Answers Regarding AA's Last Best Offer
May 02, 2012
Different questions have been raised in the two days since the Company's Last and Best Offer was finalized. This offer is being put to vote based on the commitment we made at the outset of the Bankruptcy process that the membership would have the opportunity to vote on the LBO. In order to make sure that this vote is based on accurate information about the contents of the proposal and the laws which govern the bankruptcy process, we are putting out answers to commonly asked questions.

1. If our contract is rejected by the Bankruptcy Court, what will be imposed, the Company's "ask" before the proceedings began on the Company's motion to reject, or the Last Best Offer (LBO) made after those proceedings began?
The law on rejection of collective bargaining agreements has evolved over the years in ways that are not favorable to unions or working people. In 2007, in the Northwest bankruptcy, the Court rejected the contract covering the flight attendants after they rejected the Company's LBO. At that time, the Bankruptcy Court stated that the Company could only impose its LBO, not the Company's prior Ask. That ruling, which I commented on in writing at the time, has since been superseded (as has my comment on it), and is no longer the binding law on the issue in the Bankruptcy Courts of the Southern District of New York. The superseding case is the Frontier Airlines case, which was ruled on in 2009. There, the Federal District Court for the Southern District of New York (the district we are in, and the court which reviews all the decisions of the Bankruptcy Court handling AA's filing) ruled that proposals made after the beginning of the hearings on an 1113 motion are not admissible to establish the level of concessions necessary for reorganization. What the Court specifically held was that "under the regime established by Section 1113, proposals and supporting disclosures made by a party after the rejection hearing has begun may not form the basis for concluding whether the 1113 standard has been satisfied, except, perhaps, where the parties expressly agree they may be considered." In other words, absent an agreement to the contrary, the LBO, if it was made after the rejection proceedings began, is not even admissible into the hearings to decide whether to abrogate the contract, much less to define precisely what terms and conditions of employment the company may initially impose.

The Company's "ask" was made before the rejection proceedings began. The LBO was made after those proceedings began. The Company was obviously aware of the Frontier precedent and stated at all times that the terms of the LBO were without prejudice
to its position before the Bankruptcy Court. Therefore, there was no agreement to allow the Court to consider the LBO. We, of course, will pursue all legal arguments should we face contract rejection, but the controlling precedent in New York is that the LBO is not even admissible into the 1113 proceedings and that the Company is not bound by the LBO and can impose its prehearing "ask" if the contract is rejected.

2. If the Court permits the Company to reject our agreement will we be able to strike?
In 2007, the Northwest flight attendants sought the right to strike after their contract was rejected. The Second Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that NWA did not violate the status quo by imposing concessions on the flight attendants because the court had authorized NWA to reject their contract and also ruled in that case the flight attendants had no right to strike.

3. When will the NMB release us or the other AA unions?
It is impossible to know how long we can be kept in mediation, but certain things are clear. The NMB is not quick to issue releases at major carriers. Amtrak workers were kept in mediation for close to ten years and other work groups in the airline industry have amendable dates which precede ours.. The point is that it is impossible to know when we will be able to strike, but it is very unlikely that it will be quick, and in that time much damage will be done.

Sharon L. Levine, Lowenstein Sandler PC

VOTE HELL NO