Split topic- From the AA board

[local 12 proud]

And Local 12...haven't forgotten about you. I will spend some time on all of your canned talking points when i have more time.

im Anxiously awaiting more of your liberal left wing regurgitated media propaganda...bring it on

 

[Ch. 12]

im Anxiously awaiting more of your liberal left wing regurgitated media propaganda...bring it on

Sorry...I'm not the one using "we liberated Iraq", "Remember september 11, 2001" (the golden card, right?), "Syria and Iran...aiding/abetting the Terrorist" (b/c FoxNews told you so?), "leftist media spin machine" (regarding the fact that Robertson and Falwell blame hurricanes and even Sept 11th on "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way.")

When you can revise history (i.e. our reason for entering Iraq) just b/c YOUR PR spin machine has changed the original reason for the invasion (why don't you go review Bush and Cheney prior to the invasion and their remarks rather than relying on the right-wing...that's right...right-wing media). In fact..."left-wing/liberal media" is really becoming the most ridiculous catch phrase of them all and you rely on it. That + "remember Sept 11th" are the two remarks brought up if any person or media item does not follow the administrations views to the letter.

If you can't see that the world is MORE chaotic now, the US has fallen behind the world in education and is quickly heading in the direction of a fallen Rome and post-imperialism England, the rich get richer, and we continue to erode our own planet and ignore ALL scientific fact (maybe if we actually funded science it wouldn't be an issue) that we are causing the decline of the environment...to far greater a degree than just saving baby seals from being clubbed, then you are disallusioned and have been led astray by your right-wing media.

If there is one positive thing to say about Bush it is that he has mastered the modern media. Clinton was a master of the sound bites. He could package a thought or idea into a snippet that fit the modern era of streaming headlines, etc. But Bush has mastered the entire media by forcing catch-phrases (we all use them now), using catastrohpic events as a free card to curb any intellectual debate, and crucifying any media that counters the administration's views. Despite your phantasy that it is a liberal media, it is far to the right...part out of Bush/Cheney strategery and part out of fear of repercussions. Who wants to be outed as a spy or mothballed just b/c they think throught things for themselves? No...I'd say that we're all safer if we just subscribe to what Bush and FoxNews tells us and if we memorize our catch phrases.

 

[UAL_TECH]

The problem with the "stay the course" rationale for the invasion and occupation of Iraq is that the proponents of this action have been utterly, incontrovertibly wrong about everything right down the line. Many of the original reasons (they change every few months) for this war have proven to be outright lies. To now give credence to the claims that staying some undefined, open-ended "course" will at long last result in the desired outcome is wishful thinking at its worst, and is far from "rational". At some point you just have call b.s. We are past the point of any further benefit in this adventure. Saddam is gone, Iraq has a democratically elected government. It's time to declare victory and re-deploy our troops to be better prepared for these interesting times we live in.

Additionally, IMHO, having our military stuck in Iraq is hurting our national security and de-stabilizing the region. Our national interest is in no way served by clinging to failed policies. "Backing down" doesn't even enter into it. This is not a bunch of little boys playing a game of "chicken", this is about the future of the U.S.A. and the world.

I agree with you, in that if we are going to continue this course of empire, it will require a draft, about a trillion-dollar annual military budget, oh, and huge tax increases to pay for it all!

If I had not had the displeasure of working in the region and not knowing the enemy, I might be compelled to agree with you. I understand your anger, but let’s look at the facts as where we are today.

Fact#1: We are in Irag (for whatever reason).

Fact#2: The Islamic terrorists will do everything in their power to make everyone in the world become Islam. (Regardless of the costs)

Fact#3: The Islamic terrorists kill each other, Sunnis and Shiites have no compulsion to murdering their own kind.

Fact#4: Even as the Sunnis and Shiites commit Jihad on each other, the non-muslim community (us) are considered as infidels. You can listen to their clerics and all of their BS but actions speak louder than words.

Get A Grip!!!

UT

 

[local 12 proud]

Sorry...I'm not the one using "we liberated Iraq", "Remember september 11, 2001" (the golden card, right?), "Syria and Iran...aiding/abetting the Terrorist" (b/c FoxNews told you so?), "leftist media spin machine" (regarding the fact that Robertson and Falwell blame hurricanes and even Sept 11th on "pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays, lesbians, the ACLU and the People for the American Way.")

When you can revise history (i.e. our reason for entering Iraq) just b/c YOUR PR spin machine has changed the original reason for the invasion (why don't you go review Bush and Cheney prior to the invasion and their remarks rather than relying on the right-wing...that's right...right-wing media). In fact..."left-wing/liberal media" is really becoming the most ridiculous catch phrase of them all and you rely on it. That + "remember Sept 11th" are the two remarks brought up if any person or media item does not follow the administrations views to the letter.

If you can't see that the world is MORE chaotic now, the US has fallen behind the world in education and is quickly heading in the direction of a fallen Rome and post-imperialism England, the rich get richer, and we continue to erode our own planet and ignore ALL scientific fact (maybe if we actually funded science it wouldn't be an issue) that we are causing the decline of the environment...to far greater a degree than just saving baby seals from being clubbed, then you are disallusioned and have been led astray by your right-wing media.

If there is one positive thing to say about Bush it is that he has mastered the modern media. Clinton was a master of the sound bites. He could package a thought or idea into a snippet that fit the modern era of streaming headlines, etc. But Bush has mastered the entire media by forcing catch-phrases (we all use them now), using catastrohpic events as a free card to curb any intellectual debate, and crucifying any media that counters the administration's views. Despite your phantasy that it is a liberal media, it is far to the right...part out of Bush/Cheney strategery and part out of fear of repercussions. Who wants to be outed as a spy or mothballed just b/c they think throught things for themselves? No...I'd say that we're all safer if we just subscribe to what Bush and FoxNews tells us and if we memorize our catch phrases.

Your the one saying "we TOOK over Iraq, afghanistan, and we're trying to lure syria and Iran into War" all nonsense spewed off by the likes of your hero's jesse jackson and the (Rev) al sharpton kooks!

Sorry to disappoint but I don't give much credence to televangilist nor to your flip flopping Nut jobs such as the "I voted for the war, before I voted against it" John Kerry types. Look, the Intelligence said Iraq Was a threat, Iraq at one time indeed possessed WMD's all were not accounted for and Saddam Hussein had consistently played cat and mouse with the weapons inspectors, Not to mention he used WMD's against his own people..(what a nice guy huh?) We are at war on TERROR, and sorry if it offends your Utopian view of the world but it will only be defeated with FIREPOWER, Not with diplomatic relations. These fanatical religious zealots wish to turn back the calender to the 11th century, and rule by the sword.

Do I like whats happening?...F..K NO, but it is and unless we stop the spread of this growing Cancer (Radical Islam) you better get prepared to Give up all your rights. These Insane winged horse believing tent dwellers are hell bent on killing anyone and everyone who does not convert to their beliefs.

The Environment... ..Thats the least of our problems, If Rouge Nations with leaders who deny the Holocaust ever happend, and vow to destroy the (little satan) Israel and then the (BIG SATAN) US, Ever attain nuclear weapons we Probably wont have a planet to care for any longer. These Islamic Facist care not about MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), were not talking about the Cold War, No these nut jobs see death thru martyrdom as an express ticket to heaven and 72 anxiously awaiting virgins, They are more than willing to sacrifice all of mankind for their twisted beliefs.

No ch. 12 its you liberals who better open your eyes and quit your whimpering cowardly cut and run blabber, or You wont need to worry about Bush/Cheney destroying this country, The Radical Islamist along with the help from cowards (you) will do it for them!

 

[bagstacker]

If I had not had the displeasure of working in the region and not knowing the enemy, I might be compelled to agree with you. I understand your anger, but let’s look at the facts as where we are today.

Fact#1: We are in Irag (for whatever reason).

Lies,wishful thinking, and oil are the reasons we are in Iraq. To say that the reasons don't matter is to allow those responsible to duck responsibility. A sustainable energy policy that doesn't rely on unstable regions for energy supplies would be the best kind of "war".

Fact#2: The Islamic terrorists will do everything in their power to make everyone in the world become Islam. (Regardless of the costs)

The propaganda of the "endless war" crowd. Check the dictionary, opinions are not facts. And Muslims will forcibly convert the most heavily armed nation (us) in the history of the world how? Stop being silly! That is not to say that terrorists shouldn't be taken seriously,(unlike Dubya, who was given an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden determined to Strike in U.S." but just shrugged and went on vacation until we were attacked on 9/11) but compared to the threat of mutual assured destruction we faced daily during the cold war, it doesn't remotely measure up to the pronouncements of the hysteria-mongers. I don't make the mistake of assuming that all Muslims are terrorists, and will not until facts (not hysterical propaganda) prove otherwise.

Fact#3: The Islamic terrorists kill each other, Sunnis and Shiites have no compulsion to murdering their own kind.

Yes, it is called civil war(though there is nothing civil about it), sane people predicted it, we have no business in the middle of it. BTW, Americans had no COMPUNCTION against murdering each other during a little thing called the War Between the States c. 1861-1865, so what is your point?

Fact#4: Even as the Sunnis and Shiites commit Jihad on each other, the non-muslim community (us) are considered as infidels. You can listen to their clerics and all of their BS but actions speak louder than words.

Yep, religious lunacy is a plague upon humankind in all its forms. Mighty bright of Dubya to announce a "crusade" to free the middle east. It really got "our" fundie bomb-blessers all het-up for the end-times and the rapture!

Get A Grip!!!


Since you seem to be among those giddily calling for world war, 'tis not me who needs to "get a grip"

 

[bagstacker]

Ch 12.:
When you can revise history (i.e. our reason for entering Iraq) just b/c YOUR PR spin machine has changed the original reason for the invasion (why don't you go review Bush and Cheney prior to the invasion and their remarks rather than relying on the right-wing...that's right...right-wing media). In fact..."left-wing/liberal media" is really becoming the most ridiculous catch phrase of them all and you rely on it. That + "remember Sept 11th" are the two remarks brought up if any person or media item does not follow the administrations views to the letter.

Amen to that! Last week on CNN, Anchor Chuck Roberts attempted to sleaze-boat Connecticut Democratic Senatorial nominee Ned Lamont by saying, "Some say (ahh, the ubiquitous yet ever elusive "some")that Ned Lamont is the Al Quaeda candidate." WTF? Ned's terrorist act? Defeating Joe Lieberman in the Democratic primary!!!! Why, the very nerve of Lamont!!!
Immediate, strong protest forced Roberts to apologize on the air, but the fact that he would even try something like that just shows how far off into wingnut la-la land the "mainstream" (corporate) media has gone!

 

[local 12 proud]

Amen to that! Last week on CNN, Anchor Chuck Roberts attempted to sleaze-boat Connecticut Democratic Senatorial nominee Ned Lamont by saying, "Some say (ahh, the ubiquitous yet ever elusive "some")that Ned Lamont is the Al Quaeda candidate." WTF? Ned's terrorist act? Defeating Joe Lieberman in the Democratic primary!!!! Why, the very nerve of Lamont!!!
Immediate, strong protest forced Roberts to apologize on the air, but the fact that he would even try something like that just shows how far off into wingnut la-la land the "mainstream" (corporate) media has gone!

Oh yea you left-wing cut and run cowards know how to pick'em alright...

"So Ned Lamont did defeat Joe Lieberman. But Lamont won by just under four percentage points, a far cry from the huge margins he’d captured in the polls just a week ago. Lieberman’s concession speech was also a declaration of intent to run as an independent where there are more potential independents than Democrats and Republicans . But, if Lamont is trying to put himself forward as a new face in the Democratic Party, the two men who planted themselves right in back of him on the stage at the victory party gave it all away. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are hustlers, and racist hustlers at that. They have accomplished nothing for African-Americans, nothing. Jackson keeps himself alive by conning big corporations out of bags of cash. He is a one-man reparations racket. Sharpton is the reverend with the big silver jewelry, and it isn’t a cross. He sups off his perennial political campaigns and has been known not to pay taxes besides. His ugly history includes leading the riots against a Korean-owned grocery in Brooklyn, the violent picketing of a store on 125th Street store that ended in a fire and in a death, and the 1991 rampage in Crown Heights during which an Australian Orthodox Jew was stabbed to death. And, of course, Sharpton was the chief incendiary of the utterly fraudulent Tawana Brawley case in which vicious lies tripped off his mouth for a year and more. Ned Lamont, the candidate from gentle-mannered Greenwich, should be ashamed to have had two such thugs as his intimate supporters."...Power to the Panthers

 

[UAL_TECH]

Fact#1: We are in Irag (for whatever reason).

Lies,wishful thinking, and oil are the reasons we are in Iraq. To say that the reasons don't matter is to allow those responsible to duck responsibility. A sustainable energy policy that doesn't rely on unstable regions for energy supplies would be the best kind of "war".

I never supported starting the war in Iraq, but I believe your way of thinking is what has fractionalized even us conservative Democrats. You want to save the earth by refusing to build nuclear power plants to save the one eyed newt or some freaking tree frog. It does not matter to you folks that this decision causes us to burn petrol and coal. Petrol (causes us further dependence on oil) and coal pollutes our atmosphere exponentially more than nuclear power. But you are still looking for the ‘magical’ elixir that will provide us with clean power and is environmentally safe. If we would adopt an ethanol based fuel (for our buggies) and nuclear power for the homes and industries, we could tell the arabs to kiss our ass, but as long as the ‘environmentalists’ continue to support the oil and coal theology, we are where we are and cannot advance.

Fact#2: The Islamic terrorists will do everything in their power to make everyone in the world become Islam. (Regardless of the costs)

The propaganda of the "endless war" crowd. Check the dictionary, opinions are not facts. And Muslims will forcibly convert the most heavily armed nation (us) in the history of the world how? Stop being silly! That is not to say that terrorists shouldn't be taken seriously,(unlike Dubya, who was given an intelligence briefing titled "Bin Laden determined to Strike in U.S." but just shrugged and went on vacation until we were attacked on 9/11) but compared to the threat of mutual assured destruction we faced daily during the cold war, it doesn't remotely measure up to the pronouncements of the hysteria-mongers. I don't make the mistake of assuming that all Muslims are terrorists, and will not until facts (not hysterical propaganda) prove otherwise.

I see you still do not understand the mindset of our enemy. Apparently, they are much more intelligent than you and I. Your ‘hard on’ against Bush is (IMHO) not unjustified but your blind rage to see the situation we are now in will not serve you, me or our community. You mistakenly believe that the theology of ‘communism’ is somehow different in the theology of ‘muslimism’ . Are ‘ALL’ Muslims terrorists? Of course not, are all terrorists Muslims? Yes they are (with a few exceptions that I’m sure that FWAA will point out).

Fact#3: The Islamic terrorists kill each other, Sunnis and Shiites have no compulsion to murdering their own kind.

Yes, it is called civil war(though there is nothing civil about it), sane people predicted it, we have no business in the middle of it. BTW, Americans had no COMPUNCTION against murdering each other during a little thing called the War Between the States c. 1861-1865, so what is your point?

I was not specifically speaking of the situation in Iraq. My point is that the muslims have been killing each other (and anyone else) for centuries. They call a jihad on each other (depending on what their clerics and imams determine). It is not simply a ‘political’ action but a ‘religious’ action as well (and a mix of both).

Fact#4: Even as the Sunnis and Shiites commit Jihad on each other, the non-muslim community (us) are considered as infidels. You can listen to their clerics and their entire BS but actions speak louder than words.

Yep, religious lunacy is a plague upon humankind in all its forms. Mighty bright of Dubya to announce a "crusade" to free the middle east. It really got "our" fundie bomb-blessers all het-up for the end-times and the rapture!

JMHO, you are irrational and a nut case.


Get A Grip!!!

Since you seem to be among those giddily calling for world war, 'tis not me who needs to "get a grip"

See above reply.

 

[bagstacker]

JMHO, you are irrational and a nut case.
Get A Grip!!!

Well, you have put words in my mouth about what kind of energy policy the U.S. should have. By the way, the main reason that nuclear power plants aren't being built is because no one will finance or insure them after TMI and Chernobyl! But if it gives you a warm fuzzy to blame those vicious tree-huggers, go right ahead, don't let facts get in your way!

I believe a provision was made in the recent energy bill to give government guarantees so that financiers and insurers will take on the risk, so we may see a few more built. The U.S. is already the world's largest producer of nuclear power, getting 20% of its electricity from it. France generates 80% of their electricity with nuclear power; properly done it makes sense. You see, I'm a pragmatist. I believe in what works. Solar and wind power will also generate their share as time goes by; there is nothing magic about it. Current energy prices will make it happen on a micro and macro level.

You have also ascribed a blind rage to me while you are calling for world war - Wow! that's the best case of projection I've seen all day! B)

You must be smarter than everybody if you can read my mind through the internets. Or is it just that your argument is indefensible and so you immediately fall back upon stereotyping and ad-hominem attacks? It is much easier than thinking, I'll admit.

Then you close by calling me irrational and a nutcase. :blink: But no matter what names you want to call me, we'll both wake up in the morning to the same failed foreign policy we have now. Wishful or magical thinking won't change that.

 

[Seatacus]

I'm a pragmatist. I believe in what works. Solar and wind power will also generate their share as time goes by; there is nothing magic about it. Current energy prices will make it happen on a micro and macro level.

What about coal? Supposedly the US has enough to last 3 or 4 centuries.

 

[bagstacker]

What about coal? Supposedly the US has enough to last 3 or 4 centuries.

I'm sure coal will be part of the mix for a long while to come, I just hope we can get an administration that will enforce the Clean Air Act. The DFW area, along with many other areas, is downwind a majority of the year from several coal-fired powerplants and cement kilns that burn toxic waste (yes, that's right, toxic waste). :down: The result is heavy airborne particulate matter concentrations, along with mercury and other toxins in the drinking water reservoirs and elsewhere. When coupled with smog generated by automobiles, DFW now has worse air "quality" than LAX on most days, particularly in the summer.

Rather than enforcing tough, though achievable, clean air standards, the current administration uses a "voluntary compliance" method for industrial polluters which translates into, "pollute as much as you want, we won't stop you." The excuse is that tough enforcement will drive up prices for retail consumers, although since electricity rates have virtually doubled in a year in Texas following de-regulation (which was going to let the "magic of monopolies" bring us lower prices :blink: ) that rotten fish is getting harder and harder to peddle.

But even a red state like Texas will only take so many lies and so much corruption. People are starting to turn blue around here - both in the face, and at the ballot box!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

How soon some forget... :blink:

9/11 was perpetrated by 19 Islamic fascist 12 of which were of Saudi nationality, 1 egyption, 1 United Arab Emirates, 1 lebanese, And 4 unknown.

Simple question for you that requires only a yes or no response. Were we occupying any countries that these terrorist hailed from on 9/11?

Were we occupying Afgahanistan from which this horrendous plot was hatched by Osama Bin Laden who is also of Saudi decent?

We did'nt start this war, but by God we're gonna finish it!

 

[Seatacus]

cement kilns that burn toxic waste (yes, that's right, toxic waste). :down: The result is heavy airborne particulate matter concentrations, along with mercury and other toxins in the drinking water reservoirs and elsewhere.

I'm just curious, what kind of toxic waste are they burning? My dad was in the cement business his whole career and he was always commenting on how much the plant did to reduce pollution. His plant was only about three miles from the center of Silicon Valley and I believe it is still operating.

 

[bagstacker]

I'm just curious, what kind of toxic waste are they burning? My dad was in the cement business his whole career and he was always commenting on how much the plant did to reduce pollution. His plant was only about three miles from the center of Silicon Valley and I believe it is still operating.

Here is a partial list, this from the late 90's, though as far as I know this is still going on.

Company Business Approx. Amounts
1. Safety-Kleen Hazardous Waste Blender* 6,975.85 tons
2. Chemical Reclamation Hazardous Waste Blender* 3,399.42 tons
3. HEAT Hazardous Waste Blender* 3,313.38 tons
4. Texaco Oil/chemical 3,087.00 tons
5. Clark Refinery Oil/Chemical 1,667.78 tons
6. Arco Oil/chemical 1,516.76 tons
7. Huntsman Hazardous Waste Blender* 1,328.62 tons
8. Westlake Manufacturer 1,302.09 tons
9. Eltex Manufacturer 1,110.34 tons
10. Exxon Oil/Chemical 1,077.41 tons

Toxic Release Inventory (TRI)
Latest TRI Data Released for 2004

The latest Toxic Release Inventory for 2004 was released in April 2006. Nearly 400 tons of various kinds of toxic pollution were released into the Midlothian's (just south-southeast of Dallas/Fort Worth) air, land and water in 2004, including over 1000 pounds of Mercury, 25,000 pounds of Lead, 58,000 pounds of Benzene, 89,000 pounds of Toluene, and 600 pounds each of Styrene and Naphthalene.

See more at:

http://www.downwindersatrisk.org

California has the toughest environmental standards in the country, that is why they are getting cleaner while the rest of the country is getting filthier.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Well, you have put words in my mouth about what kind of energy policy the U.S. should have. By the way, the main reason that nuclear power plants aren't being built is because no one will finance or insure them after TMI and Chernobyl! But if it gives you a warm fuzzy to blame those vicious tree-huggers, go right ahead, don't let facts get in your way!

I believe a provision was made in the recent energy bill to give government guarantees so that financiers and insurers will take on the risk, so we may see a few more built. The U.S. is already the world's largest producer of nuclear power, getting 20% of its electricity from it. France generates 80% of their electricity with nuclear power; properly done it makes sense. You see, I'm a pragmatist. I believe in what works. Solar and wind power will also generate their share as time goes by; there is nothing magic about it. Current energy prices will make it happen on a micro and macro level.

Very well thought out post, but as long as every tree hugger (CA being the worst) protests at every mention of nuclear energy, it will remain moot regardless of bills passed to support it and we will continue to be forced to use petrol and coal. I appreciate your pragmatism in acknowledging that nuclear power can be accomplished.

You have also ascribed a blind rage to me while you are calling for world war - Wow! that's the best case of projection I've seen all day!

I do not see where I am advocating WWIII, but I do believe that our enemy does not care if we want to give them a hug or not. Our enemy uses our reasonable sensibilities to their advantage at every point and I am just tired of the lemmings that believe that a war can be fought without collateral damage. What I see today are the same people that supported invading Iraq now condemning their ‘own’ decision and deflect blame on ‘we didn’t know’. If they truly ‘did not know’ then I also question their decision to agree with something ‘they did not know’ and assisted in putting us in the mess we are in now without thinking it through. I am certainly no genius or foreign policy guru, but I cautioned people (based on what my limited knowledge of war and understanding of history) that once we crossed that portal there would be no turning back. They hype that ‘they are cooking for us’ before the invasion was believed by far too many people that simply do not know what they were up against and they believed that this would be a quick in-N-out. The point is that we are now in a position in time were we just cannot pull out. We put Iraq in the situation they are in today, and we should be committed to seeing that they are made whole. Do I think they are on the verge of civil war? Possibly, but JMHO it is because we do not have enough ground troops to implement the security protections that is needed.

You must be smarter than everybody if you can read my mind through the internets. Or is it just that your argument is indefensible and so you immediately fall back upon stereotyping and ad-hominem attacks? It is much easier than thinking, I'll admit.

Then you close by calling me irrational and a nutcase. But no matter what names you want to call me, we'll both wake up in the morning to the same failed foreign policy we have now. Wishful or magical thinking won't change that.

True, I may have been harsh, and for that I apologize. Forgive my indiscretion.

Regards,
B) UT