Southwest F/a's Working Free

[Dea Certe]

JAMAKE1,

I'm glad to see another person from another airline supporting the fine FA's at SWA! And thank you for your support during AFA's struggles with US Airways back in 2000! We had many flight attendants from other airlines walking with us, it was deeply appreciated. American Airlines flight attendants not only showed up to walk in our Candlelight Vigils, but also spoke at rallies about their experiences during the strike at American. Also, we had folks from the US Steelworkers and a few other unions at that time.

I don't think there's any "ulterior motive" when fellow professionals stand up to help each other. The fight for better working conditions and standard of living is a concern to us all.

I'll be proud to help out SWA FA's any way I can, even if it's just another body on a picket line.

Dea

 

[JAMAKE1]

Hello Dea:

Thank you for your kind words. I have long enjoyed reading your intelligent and articulate postings on the US message board. I felt very empowered that March evening when negotiations had gone past the 12 midnight EST deadline and we were out there chanting...and praying. I have worn many uniforms during my colorful airline career...PSA and USAir being two of them, so I naturally have a soft spot for my fellow breathen at US. I am intrigued by the situation at Southwest because the airline has had a long history of labor peace and it is interesting to watch that dynamic shift. On a personal level, I love to observe an individual blossom into one's own personal power and I perceive that to be happening with the flight attendants at Southwest...on a collective level. I am excited for them and hope they will prevail without having to resort to self help measures. As a flight attendant, I have long felt that we share a certain sacred "jumpseat intimacy" which the rest of the world may not experience nor understand. It is almost an unspoken understanding for one another and I think that that understanding transcends the fact that we wear different uniforms and work for different airlines. I can recall how grateful and moved the USAirways flight attendants were that flight attendants from another airline would take the time to show up. My inspiration for unionism really started when I was working for USAir and got to watch the events unfold at Eastern Airlines. I was so inspired by the fact that employees were willing to give up their careers and livelihood in order to take a stand against Frank Lorenzo. Those were not easy choices to make. If nothing else, at least they thwarted Lorenzo's destructive efforts to undermine years and years of hard-fought labor agreements.

 

[JS]

Originally posted by SWAFA30:

[The cost of labor is an expense, the laborer him or herself is the investment. Especially in a business where your stock and trade is Customer Service. There are hundreds of thousands of seats flying around out there now. The other majors match or beat our advance purchase fares. The new crop of LCCs offer an arguably more sophisticated product and their route structures are growing by leaps and bounds. Given the situation, making sure the workgroup that spends far and away the most time with your passengers is if not happy at least placated might be kinda important. Recruiting, Training, and Supporting a workforce is putting money out with an expection that the money spent will result in a profit. That is an investment. If the flight attendant group and the rest of labor at Southwest are merely "expenses" it might be important to remember that if you buy cheap, you get cheap.

I think you misunderstand the definition of investment. It doesn't mean warm fuzzies and happy people, it means more net income in the future in exchange for paying for something today (e.g., kiosks).

I'm not naive; I know the union wants more pay than what the company is offering. But please stop twisting words to get more support, with things like "we work for free on the ground" and "labor is an investment". Stick with industry pay comparisons. Hmmm... maybe that's the reason for the wordsmithing -- an "industry leading" contract might be a downgrade.

Again, why does it have to be an either or situation? If TFP raises AND a company standard 12 year top out AND Duty rigs will not raise SWA's CASM or otherwise threaten SWA's low-cost advangtage, why can't the company sign off on all three? If not, then they(the company) needs to do a better job of making their case to the membership. So far, all they have done is say "no", not "no, because...." Just "no". I like to think we, the rank and file are reasonable people. If a real, solid case is made for that fact that the proposals our union is making will threaten the survival of Southwest Airlines, we're all ears. To us it continues to seem like this has become less about SWA's ability to pay us what we are asking for and more about the fact that we have had the audacity to ask for it in the first place.

Of course it will raise CASM. It's pretty simple: increase expenses, and CASM goes up. It might not threaten the very survival of Southwest over the next few years, but is that a good reason? Shall I go to my boss and say, "If you pay me $X more, we won't land in bankruptcy court. Therefore you can afford it and I deserve it."

 

[JS]

JAMAKE1,

I'm glad to see another person from another airline supporting the fine FA's at SWA! And thank you for your support during AFA's struggles with US Airways back in 2000! We had many flight attendants from other airlines walking with us, it was deeply appreciated. American Airlines flight attendants not only showed up to walk in our Candlelight Vigils, but also spoke at rallies about their experiences during the strike at American. Also, we had folks from the US Steelworkers and a few other unions at that time.

I don't think there's any "ulterior motive" when fellow professionals stand up to help each other. The fight for better working conditions and standard of living is a concern to us all.

I'll be proud to help out SWA FA's any way I can, even if it's just another body on a picket line.

Dea

US Steel! Now that's an industry anyone would be jealous of!

 

[737pilot]

From what I understand the current flight ops payscale, is competitive on the 737. Plus, they have a 12 year top out and duty rigs. Essentially, they(flight ops) already are where we would like to be.

We are NOWHERE near our peers at other airlines as far as pilot pay. I don't know who told you that load but my pay is currently $30.00/hr below a NWA F/O and over $40.00/hr below a Delta F/O. You better get a good contract because you will all be giving it back as soon as our section 6 begins in 2006. In order to pay the pilots what we deserve, there is no way they can afford to pay any other group at this airline. Unlike other groups there are not many 737 Type rated pilots ready to be trained in 3 days.

 

[SWAFA30]

We are NOWHERE near our peers at other airlines as far as pilot pay. I don't know who told you that load but my pay is currently $30.00/hr below a NWA F/O and over $40.00/hr below a Delta F/O. You better get a good contract because you will all be giving it back as soon as our section 6 begins in 2006. In order to pay the pilots what we deserve, there is no way they can afford to pay any other group at this airline. Unlike other groups there are not many 737 Type rated pilots ready to be trained in 3 days.

Thank You for the clarification on your salary. I lurk quite a bit on flightinfo.com and I was under the impression that SWA was paying a competitive rate on the 737. Sad to hear that is not the case. At any rate, my hope is that your trip to the bargaining table goes much more smoothly than ours.

The pilot group has more technical knowledge and skill than the flight attendant group, we get it. The "3 day training" comment might be true but was a cheap shot nevertheless. The SWA flight attendants have never been anything but respectful of the pilot group on this forum. How about returning the favor. Disagreeing with our point of view is one thing, demeaning is quite another.

 

[KCFlyer]

We are NOWHERE near our peers at other airlines as far as pilot pay. I don't know who told you that load but my pay is currently $30.00/hr below a NWA F/O and over $40.00/hr below a Delta F/O. You better get a good contract because you will all be giving it back as soon as our section 6 begins in 2006. In order to pay the pilots what we deserve, there is no way they can afford to pay any other group at this airline. Unlike other groups there are not many 737 Type rated pilots ready to be trained in 3 days.

Thank You for the clarification on your salary. I lurk quite a bit on flightinfo.com and I was under the impression that SWA was paying a competitive rate on the 737. Sad to hear that is not the case. At any rate, my hope is that your trip to the bargaining table goes much more smoothly than ours.

The pilot group has more technical knowledge and skill than the flight attendant group, we get it. The "3 day training" comment might be true but was a cheap shot nevertheless. The SWA flight attendants have never been anything but respectful of the pilot group on this forum. How about returning the favor. Disagreeing with our point of view is one thing, demeaning is quite another.

SWAFA30...look at the total number of posts for "737pilot", and his intentionally inflamatory words like "what we (the pilots) deserve". Methinks this person is about as much of a 737 pilot as I am.

 

[737pilot]

No disrespect to the F/A's. You guys are the BEST in my opinion. I am just talking about any group at SWA can be replaced, me included. It just would take longer for us or the mechanics. The new F/A Certification would help your stance, but could also be offset by the number of newly 737 trained F/A's at United, USAirways, Frontier, etc that may be willing to cross a picket line with the new "Quick Training" that this legislation included. You can thank AFA for possibly screwing the industry with this one. Why did they think the Bush administration was so quick to sign it. The ability to help furloughed F/A's by making them qualified on type is a double edge sword. KCFlyer, since you are a "737" pilot please tell me which hydraulic pumps are turned off for pushback. Don't know? Then don't ever insinuate that someone is not a pilot unless you know for sure.

 

[KCFlyer]

No disrespect to the F/A's. You guys are the BEST in my opinion. I am just talking about any group at SWA can be replaced, me included. It just would take longer for us or the mechanics. The new F/A Certification would help your stance, but could also be offset by the number of newly 737 trained F/A's at United, USAirways, Frontier, etc that may be willing to cross a picket line with the new "Quick Training" that this legislation included. You can thank AFA for possibly screwing the industry with this one. Why did they think the Bush administration was so quick to sign it. The ability to help furloughed F/A's by making them qualified on type is a double edge sword. KCFlyer, since you are a "737" pilot please tell me which hydraulic pumps are turned off for pushback. Don't know? Then don't ever insinuate that someone is not a pilot unless you know for sure.

I readily admit that I am not a 737 pilot. But I would imagine that with a little help from google, one could easily answer your question. Just find it odd that a Southwest pilot would be telling FA's to "shoot for all they can get" because when the pilots come due in 2006, they'll have to give it all back to give you the pay you "deserve". I thought most SWA pilots considered the role of every other group to be just as important.

And...FWIW, should U come to an untimely end, I know that there are a few qualified 737 pilots who could be rounded up. May even be a few furloughed UAL and DAL pilots out there as well.

 

[bwipilot]

737pilot: from a fellow 737 aviator who can tell you the A pumps get turned off--you're over the line. I agree with the statement that having the pilots rigs, 12 year top out, and more pay for trip will definitely increase trip cost. But while some of your facts are credible, your presentation erased any points you may have made.

To all SWA FA's: best wishes on your negotiations. Still, your arguments haven't gotten me on your bandwagon yet. Most of the issues seems like the Dems and Repubs are debating them. Lots of hype and emotion, little facts and background. I haven't seen detailed comparisons of industry average and leading pay. The rigs issue is undefined: what have the company and union offered. If want all of our and rigs (5.0 per day, 6.5 per day average, .74 duty day rig and give the company our 13 hour duty) i'm with you. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges to me. On a shorter duty day the rigs create a lot of inefficiency that would cost SWA and give them nothing.

As for 17 years to top out pay, I've flown with numerous Captains who complain they don't get a pay raise after 12 years. The length to top out is irrelevant, the pay rates at comparable lenghts of service is important. Assuming that total cost to SWA is constant, shorter time to top out moves money from senior FAs to junior FAs--is that the intended consequence? Or just more money from SWA? Not getting paid for through flights is an off issue as well. If you want to be paid industry leading wages because of it--good reasoning. If you want extra pay for each throughflight as a line item--it's bogus to me.

The reason SWA pilots had success with SWA was that we used reason. We had detailed industry pay comparison charts. We showed why productivity rigs would save the company money (increased productivity), avoided any baloney, and gave the company reason to negotiate early--an 2 year extension avoiding a full section six.

All said, I readily admit that you don't have to convince me to win a negotiation with SWA. The FA's just have to convince SWA. The only time I matter is if you would like my support as a sympathetic co-worker. I hope your negotiators are using plenty of logic and would like to see it on the TWU 555 page. The current charts only show a small part of the picture--and only the parts that make the FA negotiators look the best. Again, please show more.

 

[skyflyr69]

Yet your company is still in bankruptcy, no? Southwests 401K match, very generous health insurance, and profit sharing also add significantly to their overall pay. Yet these numbers are usually to be exluded in any discussions about compensation.

no health/dental at retirement right? :down:

 

[orangeman]

To all SWA FA's: best wishes on your negotiations. Still, your arguments haven't gotten me on your bandwagon yet. Most of the issues seems like the Dems and Repubs are debating them. Lots of hype and emotion, little facts and background. I haven't seen detailed comparisons of industry average and leading pay. The rigs issue is undefined: what have the company and union offered. If want all of our and rigs (5.0 per day, 6.5 per day average, .74 duty day rig and give the company our 13 hour duty) i'm with you. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges to me. On a shorter duty day the rigs create a lot of inefficiency that would cost SWA and give them nothing.

As for 17 years to top out pay, I've flown with numerous Captains who complain they don't get a pay raise after 12 years. The length to top out is irrelevant, the pay rates at comparable lenghts of service is important. Assuming that total cost to SWA is constant, shorter time to top out moves money from senior FAs to junior FAs--is that the intended consequence? Or just more money from SWA? Not getting paid for through flights is an off issue as well. If you want to be paid industry leading wages because of it--good reasoning. If you want extra pay for each throughflight as a line item--it's bogus to me.

The reason SWA pilots had success with SWA was that we used reason. We had detailed industry pay comparison charts. We showed why productivity rigs would save the company money (increased productivity), avoided any baloney, and gave the company reason to negotiate early--an 2 year extension avoiding a full section six.

All said, I readily admit that you don't have to convince me to win a negotiation with SWA. The FA's just have to convince SWA. The only time I matter is if you would like my support as a sympathetic co-worker. I hope your negotiators are using plenty of logic and would like to see it on the TWU 555 page. The current charts only show a small part of the picture--and only the parts that make the FA negotiators look the best. Again, please show more.

Bwipilot, The 13 hr. duty day issue is "apples and oranges"! A pilot can only fly 8 hrs. a day. You can not "work" all of these hours! A F/A can! What about turn time? Granted, sometimes the F/O gets stuck with clearances every leg with some Capts. Are you still cleaning the plane when the Ops. agent starts boarding? Inflight...Do you not have time between radio calls to eat? Can you not draw two of us away from our service so that you can come out and use the lav?

As for "Top Out", If it takes one longer to reach the same "top" payrate, then that is money out of one's pocket! Yes it sucks to not get a raise after X years, but if it takes even longer to get to said payrate, that is less total pay during years of service.

In addition, we are local 556. Local 555 is ramp and ops. Local 555 received an average of a 35% raise over 5 yrs. The latest proposal from the SWA NT for local 556 is 20% over 6.5 years with 0 for year 2003 and it is backended in order to avoid the cost of "retro pay" from the last 21+ months that have past since our "Ammendable" date via the RLA.

I do thank you for your best wishes! I just felt a need to respond to your post as I am a WN F/A.

 

[orangeman]

To all SWA FA's: best wishes on your negotiations. Still, your arguments haven't gotten me on your bandwagon yet. Most of the issues seems like the Dems and Repubs are debating them. Lots of hype and emotion, little facts and background. I haven't seen detailed comparisons of industry average and leading pay. The rigs issue is undefined: what have the company and union offered. If want all of our and rigs (5.0 per day, 6.5 per day average, .74 duty day rig and give the company our 13 hour duty) i'm with you. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges to me. On a shorter duty day the rigs create a lot of inefficiency that would cost SWA and give them nothing.

As for 17 years to top out pay, I've flown with numerous Captains who complain they don't get a pay raise after 12 years. The length to top out is irrelevant, the pay rates at comparable lenghts of service is important. Assuming that total cost to SWA is constant, shorter time to top out moves money from senior FAs to junior FAs--is that the intended consequence? Or just more money from SWA? Not getting paid for through flights is an off issue as well. If you want to be paid industry leading wages because of it--good reasoning. If you want extra pay for each throughflight as a line item--it's bogus to me.

The reason SWA pilots had success with SWA was that we used reason. We had detailed industry pay comparison charts. We showed why productivity rigs would save the company money (increased productivity), avoided any baloney, and gave the company reason to negotiate early--an 2 year extension avoiding a full section six.

All said, I readily admit that you don't have to convince me to win a negotiation with SWA. The FA's just have to convince SWA. The only time I matter is if you would like my support as a sympathetic co-worker. I hope your negotiators are using plenty of logic and would like to see it on the TWU 555 page. The current charts only show a small part of the picture--and only the parts that make the FA negotiators look the best. Again, please show more.

Bwipilot, The 13 hr. duty day issue is "apples and oranges"! A pilot can only fly 8 hrs. a day. You can not "work" all of these hours! A F/A can! What about turn time? Granted, sometimes the F/O gets stuck with clearances every leg with some Capts. Are you still cleaning the plane when the Ops. agent starts boarding? Inflight...Do you not have time between radio calls to eat? Can you not draw two of us away from our service so that you can come out and use the lav?

As for "Top Out", If it takes one longer to reach the same "top" payrate, then that is money out of one's pocket! Yes it sucks to not get a raise after X years, but if it takes even longer to get to said payrate, that is less total pay during years of service.

In addition, we are local 556. Local 555 is ramp and ops. Local 555 received an average of a 35% raise over 5 yrs. The latest proposal from the SWA NT for local 556 is 20% over 6.5 years with 0 for year 2003 and it is backended in order to avoid the cost of "retro pay" from the last 21+ months that have passed since our "Ammendable" date via the RLA.

I do thank you for your best wishes! I just felt a need to respond to your post as I am a WN F/A.

 

[john398]

Over on flyertalk one of the customers was basically asking about giving FA something extra, didnt know if any FA want to chime in but thought I would mention it.

I appologize if this is off topic
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum44/HTM...TML/001417.html

 

[H&K USP]

My wife is a FA at SWA, she worked her norm sched (90ish trips a month) last year and made $29,000 and has $45,000 to date in profit sharing. She was hired in late 97. $29,000 for 6 months of work. 15 days off almost every month, not including 2 weeks paid vacation, paid sick leave and the flexibility to change her schedule hours before her check-in. She has a college degree and could make more money in her specialized field. But she knows that:
1) there were no real prerequisites for the job. Not even height to weight ratio.
2) that the job is almost brainless. Some FA's claim that they "might" have save your ass, nurses save more lives in one day than any career FA. School teachers know basic first aide and CPR.
3) She knew that the job entailed cleaning the airplane, working holidays, weekends, cleaning the airplane. SWA has been doing this for 30 years.
4) traveled with her last job. MONDAY-FRIDAY!! 5 DAYS STRAIGHT!!!! NOT A 3 DAY OR A 4 DAY. THAT'S EASY! Try working all day and then having to take clients to dinner 2 or 3 nights while your on the road!! Check the math 20 days on the month. Only Satuday and Sunday off.
What she doesn't understand is why FA's feel so pissed off that after they are hired so many things about the job sucks. Why did they take the job? They knew what the job entailed. I'll tell why they took the job, it's not that bad.
I could go on and on but I am tired. I'll post more after I am flamed..
Bring on the debate.