Southwest F/a's Working Free

[orangeman]

The reference to Rosa Parks made me almost want to throw up. It's incredible what people will try and dredge up to attempt to justify an indefensible position.

Here is what will happen:

Parker & the Company will make an offer somewhat better than the one they have on the table today (maybe it will be as good as the offer of last July) and the union will declare victory and go home.

Or

The Union will refuse to budge, Parker will lock them out, put a new contract in place which awards seniority to former airline employees based on years of service with their former employer, resembles the current company offer in terms of wages per trip for pay, and will keep the company profitable.

The PATCO strike didn't work. This one won't either, in the long run. A strike or lockout will cost Southwest some money. It is money well spent if it ensures that management is not to captive to unreasonable demands by a group of employees. One reason that Southwest is the only profitable large carrier out there is that the emploee compensation packages have rewarded productivity. Folks got paid pretty well, by and large, but they had to work hard to get it. The Comapny is not going to roll over and play dead because the Flight Attendants want USAirways or United work rules.

I find it funny that other air carrier employees are so supportive of the Southwest FA struggle. You reckon it could be that they want Southwest to bust their cost model and be in the same boat they are? After all, misery loves company.

The number of furloughed FAs throughout the industry (and even some who are working for potentially expired carriers) might jump at the chance tow work for good wages, for a going concern, if they were able to trade their seniority 2 for 1 at a legitimate company.

It will be a shame. The bottom line is the company belongs to the stockholders. The employees are important, but the FAs are one piece of the big picture. Most of us who pay our good money to fly Southwest want to see them get a raise. We don;t want to see them ruin the company. Their comments about "this change will only cost point x cents per ASM falls on deaf ears...it's hard enough to trust Price Waterhouse (don't ever trust Arthur Anderson)....do you think we are going to take the word of some union accountant at face value when it comes to impact of a contract change on operating costs? Give me a break.

This whole thing is headed to lockout and replacement if the FAs don't begin to understand the company doesn;t belong to them. They are important. Let nobody diminish the fact every employee is important. However, it's the old 'put your finger in a glass of water...now pull it out. Can you tell where you used to be?' cliche. Nobody is irreplaceable.

If paying the wages and operating with the work rules the FAs want is such a grand idea, let them scrape up the capital and start an airline. Pilots have tried that (Pride Air). We might as well let FAs give it a try. In the interim, the options are: (1) take the money and enjoy what you have or (2) get locked out and get replaced. It's that simple.

Don't think it will happen? Hide and watch.

"It will be a shame. The bottom line is the company belongs to the stockholders. The employees are important, but the FAs are one piece of the big picture. Most of us who pay our good money to fly Southwest want to see them get a raise. We don;t want to see them ruin the company. Their comments about "this change will only cost point x cents per ASM falls on deaf ears...it's hard enough to trust Price Waterhouse (don't ever trust Arthur Anderson)....do you think we are going to take the word of some union accountant at face value when it comes to impact of a contract change on operating costs? Give me a break."

We Are Stockholders!!! I have purchased $100/month for 14 years! Ofcourse this is long term. I don't have a retirement package in my future. I count on the success of my company immensely! Should I freeze my wages and or suffer monthly so that my company can post even larger profits? I need to pay my mortgage just like everyone else! I only am asking for my piece of the pie to be more comenserate with today's cost of living! If a F/A in '85 at the same seniority, made the same wage as I do now...how is this fair? I have NO interest in hurting my company, yet I refuse to subsidize profits thru my wages!

 

[tulswa]

I believe that he meant working six months over a twelve month period of time (15 days off per month). He may not have used the best grammer, but the context of his comment was clear to me.

 

[KCFlyer]

)....do you think we are going to take the word of some union accountant at face value when it comes to impact of a contract change on operating costs? Give me a break."

Well...yes. I mean, the union leaders pretty much did a dandy job of painting Parker as the Great Satan amongst the troops. Why wouldn't they believe the union accountants?

 

[orangeman]

SWAFA30....see what I mean....that's your union "negotiating" thru the media. BTW...I tend to believe that Hardage is right when she says that ground time is taken into account. My example would be the MCI-MDW type runs...1 hour and 15 minute block to block time, yet because the mileage is 504, it constitutes two "trips". That means that there is another 45 "minutes" that you've earned...and on a 30 minute turn....that pretty much covers the ground time.

KC, Thru no fault of your own, you are mistaken. There is a term in our contract called a "non-standard" trip. Our first trip for pay is 243 miles. Each trip thereafter is 400 miles! It would make sense to divide total mileage by 243 for pay on each flight, yet this is not the case! Do F/A's at other carriers get paid less after their first hour inflight? I think not!
You seem to always be well informed when you post...so here is some more information.
FYI, many WN F/A's aren't aware of this! :blink:

 

[bwipilot]

Orangeman,

Your argument concerning trip pay doesn't hold water. The mileage conversion 243 miles for the first trip and another tenth for each additional 40 miles works very well. Why? Because the 737 cruises at about 490 miles an hour (even the 300's). Hence, each additional tenth could be paid for 49 miles. We're actually paid a premium for long haul flying (please don't let the company find out). The first hour includes taxi, takeoff, and landing--hence only 243 miles calculated for the first trip.

If you would state we get shorted flying short legs around Texas paying 1 trip all day long I'd believe you. Look at all the 10 hour days Dallas and Houston crews fly to make 6 trips. Longhaul flying can make the 6 trips flying a 5 hour leg with a crew day of only 6 or so hours.

 

[4wheelr]

Orangeman, there is a very large hole in your argument. You are NOT paid less for the second hour; you are paid MORE.

Mileage is only half the equation. You are also paid for time. The first hour is paid a mimimum of 1.1 TFP. Each additional hour pays 1.2 TFP. Fractions of hours are paid 0.1 TFP for each 5 minutes.

Pay is calculated for mileage AND for distance and then paid at the greater.

You should study, carefully, what your NT is saying before you let them speak for you.

 

[orangeman]

Orangeman, there is a very large hole in your argument. You are NOT paid less for the second hour; you are paid MORE.

Mileage is only half the equation. You are also paid for time. The first hour is paid a mimimum of 1.1 TFP. Each additional hour pays 1.2 TFP. Fractions of hours are paid 0.1 TFP for each 5 minutes.

Pay is calculated for mileage AND for distance and then paid at the greater.

You should study, carefully, what your NT is saying before you let them speak for you.

4wheeler,
You also are mistaken. The 0.1 TFP per 5 min. is only applicable during time away from the gate w/ pax prior to takeoff over and above block time! This only kicks in if our block time exceeds our scheduled by 11 minutes or more.We also give back the first ten minutes prior to this kicking in.

I will now quote from the contract..."For the purposes of pay computation, a standard trip shall be any trip for which the nonstop mileage according to the CAB or DOT Book of Airport to Airport mileage is 243 or less...Flight Attendants will be paid for non-standard trips at the rate of one standard trip as set forth in paragraph 1 above, plus one-tenth(.1) trip for each forty mile increment over 243 miles, rounded up or down to the nearest forty (40) mile increment, unless a formula more favorable to the Flight Attendants is required under Article 21, Section 2.A above".

 

[orangeman]

4wheeler,
You also are mistaken. The 0.1 TFP per 5 min. is only applicable during time away from the gate w/ pax prior to takeoff over and above block time! This only kicks in if our block time exceeds our scheduled by 11 minutes or more.We also give back the first ten minutes prior to this kicking in.

I will now quote from the contract..."For the purposes of pay computation, a standard trip shall be any trip for which the nonstop mileage according to the CAB or DOT Book of Airport to Airport mileage is 243 or less...Flight Attendants will be paid for non-standard trips at the rate of one standard trip as set forth in paragraph 1 above, plus one-tenth(.1) trip for each forty mile increment over 243 miles, rounded up or down to the nearest forty (40) mile increment, unless a formula more favorable to the Flight Attendants is required under Article 21, Section 2.A above".

4wheeler,
last week, one of the flights I worked was PHX-BWI. I checked the mileage and it is 1968. Divide 1968 by 243 and you get? Just over 8 TFP if you go by 243/trip. I was paid 5.4 TFP! At my pay this one leg was a negative of over $106.00!!
I work under and have a copy of the current contract!
p.s. that is a difference of almost $25/hr.

 

[4wheelr]

4wheeler,
last week, one of the flights I worked was PHX-BWI. I checked the mileage and it is 1968. Divide 1968 by 243 and you get? Just over 8 TFP if you go by 243/trip. I was paid 5.4 TFP! At my pay this one leg was a negative of over $106.00!!
I work under and have a copy of the current contract!
p.s. that is a difference of almost $25/hr.

Are you orangeman or appleman? cause you're not comparing apples to apples.

If you do the numbers according to your own contract quote, milage pay is 5.31 TFP. If you do the numbers according to the method I described, 4+25 (the longest PHX - BWI NS) yields 5.2 TFP.

Either you overflew by 17 minutes or there is a "generous factor" in your pay computation.

 

[4wheelr]

I work under and have a copy of the current contract!

Please consult that contract and read one paragraph further (Article 21, Section 3A). There you will find the basis for the computation I described. I took the liberty of simplifying 55 + 5 minutes = 1 + .1 = 1.1 and 60 divided by 5 = 12. 12 times 0.1 = 1.2. That is refered to as overschedule override.

You confused that with overfly premium which kicks in when actual block time exceeds scheduled by 12 minutes or more; the first 11 minutes are free. You were close but the Havanas are still in the humidor.

I was not mistaken in either case.

243 miles is the distance from DAL to HOU. It is the basis for this unique thing we call a TFP. When our flights got longer, the non-standard trip was born. bwipilot explained the benefit of its present form very well. Your desire to redefine it so as to be paid 8+ TFP for 4+25 hours work is NOT a reasonable expectation.

BTW since this thread is labeled SWA F/As working for free (referring to "unpaid" ground time), exactly how much of that 4+25 were you actually working and how much were you being paid to sit on your jumpseat? That statistic is remarkably absent from the "community campaign."

 

[orangeman]

Please consult that contract and read one paragraph further (Article 21, Section 3A). There you will find the basis for the computation I described. I took the liberty of simplifying 55 + 5 minutes = 1 + .1 = 1.1 and 60 divided by 5 = 12. 12 times 0.1 = 1.2. That is refered to as overschedule override.

You confused that with overfly premium which kicks in when actual block time exceeds scheduled by 12 minutes or more; the first 11 minutes are free. You were close but the Havanas are still in the humidor.

I was not mistaken in either case.

243 miles is the distance from DAL to HOU. It is the basis for this unique thing we call a TFP. When our flights got longer, the non-standard trip was born. bwipilot explained the benefit of its present form very well. Your desire to redefine it so as to be paid 8+ TFP for 4+25 hours work is NOT a reasonable expectation.

BTW since this thread is labeled SWA F/As working for free (referring to "unpaid" ground time), exactly how much of that 4+25 were you actually working and how much were you being paid to sit on your jumpseat? That statistic is remarkably absent from the "community campaign."

i am well aware of the difference between overschedule/overfly. You must have a copy of my contract. I would have been more specific had I known that you are a WN pilot. As far as (Article 21, Section 3A), here goes...An overschedule override will be computed for each flight based upon each flight equal to one paid trip,plus one tenth for each five minutes in excess of 55 minutes, truncated to the nearest five minutes. If the value exceeds the value under the non-standard trip formula, the flight will pay the override value.
I am well aware how the trip formula came to be 243 miles (Dal-Hou). Are you aware that IAH was part of the original triad?
You give an informed? arguement.
If indeed you are a WN pilot, how often have you sat for many hours, with radio calls as your only obligation vs. constant needs from pax that I or my coworkers attend to? I am not sure whith whom your cabin crew has been, yet I never get a chance to "sit and relax" as you have stated!

 

[4wheelr]

I never get a chance to "sit and relax" as you have stated!

Where did I state that?

What's an informed? argument?

How do you get from having a copy of the contract to being a WN pilot?

"...sat for many hours, with radio calls as your only obligation..." Where did you get that pearl?

So many questions.

 

[wnfan37]

I would have been more specific had I known that you are a WN pilot.

who cares if he's a pilot, lifeguard, or cabaret dancer? he's making some insightful, intelligent points here. it's not just the pilots (or cabaret dancers) who see holes in the (irrational) proposals of mcdaniel and crew.

 

[StewGuy86]

Best of luck to the SW F/As! Like someone said in an earlier post, I think most flight attendants see each other as comrades and not competitors. True, the companies we work for may compete and we may feel loyalty to them (or not ), but that doesn't mean we see the individual that way.

I'm a voluntarily furloughed US Airways F/A that has no intention of ever going back. I've been gone nearly 2 years now, so it would make sense that I wouldn't care one bit what happens in the industry anymore, especially at another carrier. But, oddly enough, that simply isn't true. Once you've worked in the aviation industry, no matter the length of time, it seems to get into your blood and it stays there even after you leave the job. That has certainly been the case with me.

I know the SW F/A group is a hard-working, dedicated group and I always enjoyed running into you folks in the terminals, hotel shuttles, etc. I never once encountered a single SW F/A that was anything but friendly and professional. Again, best of luck!