Southwest F/a's Working Free

[JAMAKE1]

SWAFA30:

I want to commend you on your very articulate postings. You language your points very well and I totally understand where you guys are coming from. Best of luck in securing a contract that achieves your objectives. Although I am employeed with one of your competitors, I always enjoy stepping aboard a Southwest flight.
You guys work hard and deserve better than what has been offered.

Best,

JAMAKE

 

[Elivs Lives]

SWAFA30,
That was a beautifully written response. I learned my lesson when the pilot's extention was being "negotiated" about discussing my pay and benefits with people other than my family and other pilots (and even THAT got messy). It quickly turns emotional and yet you've managed to continue the debate with true professionalism, staying above the fray. Well done. You could try discuss what others posters on this thread make, but that isn't very intersting, I suppose.

To others that think a lockout will solve these woes, you couldn't be more wrong. The kind of person that would cross a union line will not do well here. As one of the most unionized work forces in the industry, scabs might find they do not fit in very well with the "rank and file" and life WAS actually better working at the Colonel's selling 11 herbs and spices or at the ticket counter at Muvico. At least they were making more money over at KFC.

I most sincerely hope you and the rest of our Flight Attendants can reach an acceptable agreement with the Company soon.

Regards,

Elvis

 

[SWAFA30]

I am humbled by your kind words. Thank You.

 

[Nebbie Nuts!]

KC:

Fighting for change isn't always pretty. Rosa Parks taking a seat at the front of the bus wasn't pretty at the time.

Let me get this straight: trip rigs is the moral equivalent of segregation? The SWA contract dispute is the same as the whole Civil Rights movement? That is not just incredibly ignorant, it is down right insulting. You owe an apology to all the true heroes of the Civil Rights movement.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I believe you have misunderstood my point and are taking it out of context. I am not equating the current situation between Southwest and its flight attendants with the civil rights movement or Rosa Parks. My POINT is that rocking the boat isn't always going to look pretty. But rocking the boat is sometimes necessary in order for progressive change to occur. In the case of Southwest, perhaps a walk-out may have to occur in order for the flight attendants to achieve a satisfactory agreement. That was my point. Case closed.

 

[KCFlyer]

I believe you have misunderstood my point and are taking it out of context. I am not equating the current situation between Southwest and its flight attendants with the civil rights movement or Rosa Parks. My POINT is that rocking the boat isn't always going to look pretty. But rocking the boat is sometimes necessary in order for progressive change to occur. In the case of Southwest, perhaps a walk-out may have to occur in order for the flight attendants to achieve a satisfactory agreement. That was my point. Case closed.

JAMAKE1...are you a Southwest FA? I only ask because I take some heat for the fact that I am not a Southwest FA. If you are not, how exactly do you know that the agreement wasn't satisfactory? Lack of a duty rig? What about other pieces of the offer...are they worth nothing? I guess if I'm going to take heat for not being a SWA FA, you should take about as much heat for being a part of the competition that is being hurt by Southwest Airlines. After all, your "guidance" can be construed as having an "ulterior motive". And....SWA FA's have taken a lot of heat from employees at other airlines for lacking "professionalism" and in many cases they have been reviled for "bringing this industry down". I really find it odd that all of the sudden, they are getting "support" from their brethren at other airlines. Gosh LUV FA's...if your thankful for the "support" from FA's at other airlines, why not put in a request for navy blue uniforms with neckties and pumps in any contract demands....it's the least you can do to insure that thier "support" and "respect" lasts after any contract is signed. IMHO, those type posts are about as suspect as the posts from the "managment shills".

 

[Bear96]

... you should take ... heat for being a part of the competition that is being hurt by Southwest Airlines. After all, your "guidance" can be construed as having an "ulterior motive" ...

I, like Jamake, am a UAL F/A and hope the WN F/As are successful in their struggle.

"Ulterior motive?" KCFlyer, your logic is just bizarre. I see the WN F/As (or F/As at any other unionized airline) as colleagues more than competitors. We have much in common, and have many of the same goals.

Obviously our companies are competitors, and the compaines are very different-- I have no desire to be a WN F/A, and I am sure many WN F/As have no desire to work for UAL. But I support them in their effort to get an improved contract for two reasons. First, every improved contract in the industry ultimately benefits all in the industry (and thankfully WN is still in a position to have improvements instead of concessions, like many of us have been forced to do recently).

Second, it is plain old-fashioned solidarity. I know this is a concept you (KCFlyer) will dismiss as quaint, outdated, socialistic, unrealistic, naive, etc. (and you may be right). But that is where I am coming from.

Good Luck Southwest F/As! We are pulling for you here at United!

 

[KCFlyer]

I, like Jamake, am a UAL F/A and hope the WN F/As are successful in their struggle.

"Ulterior motive?" KCFlyer, your logic is just bizarre. I see the WN F/As (or F/As at any other unionized airline) as colleagues more than competitors. We have much in common, and have many of the same goals.

Obviously our companies are competitors, and the compaines are very different-- I have no desire to be a WN F/A, and I am sure many WN F/As have no desire to work for UAL. But I support them in their effort to get an improved contract for two reasons. First, every improved contract in the industry ultimately benefits all in the industry (and thankfully WN is still in a position to have improvements instead of concessions, like many of us have been forced to do recently).

Second, it is plain old-fashioned solidarity. I know this is a concept you (KCFlyer) will dismiss as quaint, outdated, socialistic, unrealistic, naive, etc. (and you may be right). But that is where I am coming from.

Good Luck Southwest F/As! We are pulling for you here at United!

Bear...my point is (and read up in the FA discussions on this board) - that "solidarity" only seems to exist when it comes to a labor contract. There are numerous posts by FA's from other airlines who critize the SWA FA group for lacking "professionalism". There are numerous posts blaming the SWA FA's for the state of the industry today. Forgive me if I sense some sort of false solidarity here. Seems to me that "solidarity" would mean accepting your brethren and sistern for what they are.

 

[Bear96]

That may be "other people." I don't think I have seen postings by Jamake that indicate that is what he thinks.

 

[SWAFA30]

Yep, there are probably many OAL(other airline) stews, pilots, and miscellaneous personnel that are sitting in the background rubbing their hands and cackling as this contract drags on. They love the fact that the"Luv" airline's hearts and flowers facade is crumbling and that we too have chinks in our proverbial armor. These folks have had Southwest, Southwest, Southwest shoved down their throats by the giddy aviation press and in many cases their own management teams who have continued to beat them over the head with the need for concessions and in each and every case "Southwest" was written on the figurative club.
Under those circumstances it is just human nature for some to take a certain amount of pleasure in watching SWA squirm. The only thing more fun than watching a star on the rise is a watching that same star fall. The publishers of "People Magazine" "US Weekly" and even "The National Inquirer" have built their fortunes on this tacky little piece of human nature.

But you know what? Just because some OAL people think that way does not mean that allof them think that way. Generalizations are dangerous. Always have been, always will be. For every United or Delta flight attendant that has snickered at my uniform on an airport shuttle, three or four more have gushed over how much they wished they could work in clothes that were actually comfortable. It is easy to offer support, real or imagined while hiding behind the protective veil of anonymity on these message boards, it is quite another to be standing behind me at security checkpoint or next to me in a hotel check-in line and offer that same support when I can look into your eyes and judge the depth of your sincerity. Not a single trip goes by, that I don't have that experience.

Believe it or not, no matter who we work for, many of us consider Inflight Service to be a proud and important profession. Over the years, especially in the United States, there has been an ongoing battle to garner respect for flight attendants and move the job beyond the days of "Coffee, Tea, or Me?" Often, when OAL flight attendants express their displeasure for how SWA Flight Attendants present themselves it is out of a sense of wanting to protect the stature of the profession. These folks could not personally care less whether I wear shorts to work or not, but they do care about passengers thinking less of the flight attendant corps as a whole because I wear shorts to work(which I don't). When I explain to the detractors that our uniform and demeanor is merely an offshoot of SWA's coporate persona and that we are as well trained and safety focused as they are, they tend to calm down. It is my opinion that having examined the issues involved in our current dilemma from a flight attendant's point of view and decided that the cause is indeed just. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, spot on or not even close, that is the conclusion they have drawn and why some are coming to our defense. They are watching their carriers morph into "Network LCCs" as the domestic first and business class product continue to be marginalized in the endless chase for the all important "budget traveler". Perhaps my cohorts understand that change by change, tweak by tweak, step by step, their airlines are becoming like my airline and my contract may one day be their contract.

The industry has seen this kind of professional unity amongst the pilot ranks for quite some time. Now I think we are witnessing the same sense of unity among flight attendants. In many ways it is our CEO's and BODs that are competing against each other, we just come to work and do our jobs.

I'll wrap up by saying that I do believe most of the expressions of support from OAL employees are genuine. Call my naive but I think such support comes from a desire to protect to profession that transcends what color airplanes one happens to work on and ultimately basic human decency that empathizes with fellow man. I will continue to give my colleagues at OAL the benefit of the doubt until I have evidence to the contrary. What could I possibly stand to lose by doing that?

 

[JS]

I can't imagine why the company would really care whether you have duty rigs and how long the top-out is.

What the company really cares about is the total cost. If the union wants $10/trip with duty rigs and 12 years to top out, or $20/trip with no duty rigs and 17 years to top out, if the total is the same $10 million, they don't care (made-up numbers, but that's the idea).

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do you want higher unit pay with no duty rigs, or do you want lower unit pay with better work rules?

 

[SWAFA30]

I can't imagine why the company would really care whether you have duty rigs and how long the top-out is.

Me neither, yet here we are.

What the company really cares about is the total cost. If the union wants $10/trip with duty rigs and 12 years to top out, or $20/trip with no duty rigs and 17 years to top out, if the total is the same $10 million, they don't care (made-up numbers, but that's the idea).

Even more important at SWA than total cost is productivity. SWA will shell out the dough when nececessary, if they can forsee a return on their investment. This has been demonstrated time and time again on everything from self-service check in kiosks, laser gate scanners and blended winglets. Witness the major headquarters expansion project announced today. Surf over to http://www.ifly737.com for details.
At the core of this disagreement is the idea that a happy, productive, flight attendant group has a tangible value to the company. We are asking the company to invest in us, and then turn us loose to do everything in our power to make sure SWA customers keep coming back again and again.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Do you want higher unit pay with no duty rigs, or do you want lower unit pay with better work rules?

Why not? I like cake. The pilot group has both a fair TFP payscale, a 12 year top out and Duty rigs. Deservedly so, they work hard. Then again, so do we. We are not asking to be compensated at flights ops pay rates...we don't bring the level of skill to our jobs that our pilots do, but we do spend the same amount of time away from home in the service of this company and we are simply asking the company to fairly compensate us for that time.

 

[JS]

Even more important at SWA than total cost is productivity. SWA will shell out the dough when nececessary, if they can forsee a return on their investment. This has been demonstrated time and time again on everything from self-service check in kiosks, laser gate scanners and blended winglets. Witness the major headquarters expansion project announced today. Surf over to http://www.ifly737.com for details.

All those things are investments. SWA chose to spend money now in exchange for saving more money later.

At the core of this disagreement is the idea that a happy, productive, flight attendant group has a tangible value to the company. We are asking the company to invest in us, and then turn us loose to do everything in our power to make sure SWA customers keep coming back again and again.

Labor is not an investment. It's an expense.


Why not? I like cake. The pilot group has both a fair TFP payscale, a 12 year top out and Duty rigs. Deservedly so, they work hard. Then again, so do we. We are not asking to be compensated at flights ops pay rates...we don't bring the level of skill to our jobs that our pilots do, but we do spend the same amount of time away from home in the service of this company and we are simply asking the company to fairly compensate us for that time.

Didn't I just write about that? You can have duty rigs and a 12 year top out, just at a lower TFP.

If the pilots wanted MORE pay, they could have had it, in exchange for longer time to top out and no duty rigs.

 

[JAMAKE1]

KC:

In answer to your question, no, I do not have any ulterior motive for being interested in the contract negotiations at Southwest. I just happen to be in love with this industry and thirst for news and information whenever time permits. I used to be opposed to unions and felt that they were a breeding ground for unproductivity and mediocrity. Then I became a flight attendant for a non-union airline and was absolutely appalled by the lack of protection airline workers receive under the Railway Labor Act. Airline workers do not enjoy the same protections as workers who fall under OSHA. I grew tired of working 24 plus hour duty days without crew rest or any sort of additional compensation. I became involved in a union organizing drive and we successfully voted in the Assoc. of Flight Attendants (AFA) as our bargaining representative. It took 4 long years to negotiate our first contract and shortly thereafter, I left ATA and went to work for United. I am still in touch with many of my former colleagues and they tell me how having a union has helped ATA establish infrastructure, especially within the crew scheduling department. I was a union volunteer as well as a chairperson for my local. I am proud of the work that we did in bringing a binding collective bargaining agreement to the flight attendant group. The new hires who have come after me have it so much better than when I was a new hire. I believe work rules and duty time limitations are essential. The FAA guidelines for flight attendants are weak. Crewmembers can still be on continuous duty for 20+ hours. Some of the FAA minimum guidelines may look okay on paper, however, they rarely take into account the fatigue factor. In order for crewmembers to have adequate duty time limitations and crew rest provisions above the legal minimums (which even the NTSB has deemed inadequate), they usually must be negotiated through a collective bargaining process. I don't always agree with my union, but I believe that union protection is essential in this industry. I become personally interested whenever my fellow industry colleagues struggle to reach a contract agreement. I marched with USAirways flight attendants at SFO when their contract was coming down to the wire. I live in San Francisco and I will march with my fellow Southwest colleagues in Oakland, should it come to that. I will bake cookies and bring thermoses of coffee. Ultimately we are all in this together and although the uniforms and tails may look different, our struggle is very much the same. I have worked for 4 airlines and have a deep respect for my industry breathen. Whenever I have had other airline personel on my flights, I have always made it a point to say hello and take care of them to the best of my ability. I have never viewed them as my adversaries.

Bear96...Thank you for going to bat for me. I'm feeling a little defensive over here at this Southwest board.

 

[SWAFA30]

Even more important at SWA than total cost is productivity. SWA will shell out the dough when nececessary, if they can forsee a return on their investment. This has been demonstrated time and time again on everything from self-service check in kiosks, laser gate scanners and blended winglets. Witness the major headquarters expansion project announced today. Surf over to http://www.ifly737.com for details.

All those things are investments. SWA chose to spend money now in exchange for saving more money later.

At the core of this disagreement is the idea that a happy, productive, flight attendant group has a tangible value to the company. We are asking the company to invest in us, and then turn us loose to do everything in our power to make sure SWA customers keep coming back again and again.

Labor is not an investment. It's an expense.


Why not? I like cake. The pilot group has both a fair TFP payscale, a 12 year top out and Duty rigs. Deservedly so, they work hard. Then again, so do we. We are not asking to be compensated at flights ops pay rates...we don't bring the level of skill to our jobs that our pilots do, but we do spend the same amount of time away from home in the service of this company and we are simply asking the company to fairly compensate us for that time.

Didn't I just write about that? You can have duty rigs and a 12 year top out, just at a lower TFP.

If the pilots wanted MORE pay, they could have had it, in exchange for longer time to top out and no duty rigs.

All those things are investments. SWA chose to spend money now in exchange for saving more money later....Labor is not an investment. It's an expense.

The cost of labor is an expense, the laborer him or herself is the investment. Especially in a business where your stock and trade is Customer Service. There are hundreds of thousands of seats flying around out there now. The other majors match or beat our advance purchase fares. The new crop of LCCs offer an arguably more sophisticated product and their route structures are growing by leaps and bounds. Given the situation, making sure the workgroup that spends far and away the most time with your passengers is if not happy at least placated might be kinda important. Recruiting, Training, and Supporting a workforce is putting money out with an expection that the money spent will result in a profit. That is an investment. If the flight attendant group and the rest of labor at Southwest are merely "expenses" it might be important to remember that if you buy cheap, you get cheap.


Didn't I just write about that? You can have duty rigs and a 12 year top out, just at a lower TFP.

Again, why does it have to be an either or situation? If TFP raises AND a company standard 12 year top out AND Duty rigs will not raise SWA's CASM or otherwise threaten SWA's low-cost advangtage, why can't the company sign off on all three? If not, then they(the company) needs to do a better job of making their case to the membership. So far, all they have done is say "no", not "no, because...." Just "no". I like to think we, the rank and file are reasonable people. If a real, solid case is made for that fact that the proposals our union is making will threaten the survival of Southwest Airlines, we're all ears. To us it continues to seem like this has become less about SWA's ability to pay us what we are asking for and more about the fact that we have had the audacity to ask for it in the first place.

If the pilots wanted MORE pay, they could have had it, in exchange for longer time to top out and no duty rigs.

See, that's just it. From what I understand the current flight ops payscale, is competitive on the 737. Plus, they have a 12 year top out and duty rigs. Essentially, they(flight ops) already are where we would like to be.