AdAstraPerAspera
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WNMECH said:
I've heard it from several people I know at WN, whether they are in a position to know for sure I have no idea.
Southwest Airlines wants American Airlines’ two gates at Love Field
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I've heard it from several people I know at WN, whether they are in a position to know for sure I have no idea.
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AdAstra can respond to where he came up with hub profitability data but WN's average fares from DEN are lower than to the same markets out of SLC.
DEN is a hypercompetitive market which WN jumped into 10 years ago when their fuel hedges provided a huge advantage over other carriers.
I don't think anyone expected the battle for DEN would drag out as long as it has, but there are still 3 carriers vying for a significant piece of the market. WN is the largest in the local market but they are not large enough relative to UA or F9 to control the pricing environment.
WN has had enough time to recognize that DEN is what it is.... and it is a strategically important enough city that they aren't going to give up.
But it also highlights why WN is expanding into other high higher yield markets, esp. in Latin America. Gary Kelly said yet again how much WN expects to focus its attention on Latin America which is a natural growth area given WN's strength in regions of the US which have large Latin populations and which are close to Latin America.
DEN is a hypercompetitive market which WN jumped into 10 years ago when their fuel hedges provided a huge advantage over other carriers.
I don't think anyone expected the battle for DEN would drag out as long as it has, but there are still 3 carriers vying for a significant piece of the market. WN is the largest in the local market but they are not large enough relative to UA or F9 to control the pricing environment.
WN has had enough time to recognize that DEN is what it is.... and it is a strategically important enough city that they aren't going to give up.
But it also highlights why WN is expanding into other high higher yield markets, esp. in Latin America. Gary Kelly said yet again how much WN expects to focus its attention on Latin America which is a natural growth area given WN's strength in regions of the US which have large Latin populations and which are close to Latin America.
From an article almost 3 years ago. This was before SWA continued to grow and became the number one airline in Denver.
"Our growth is no secret," said Edward Shelswell-White, Southwest's market strategy and performance director. "We have grown at a record pace in Denver, which is the fastest-growing city in our network."
Southwest has focused on attracting Colorado travelers, and escalated its market push "tremendously" in Denver, Shelswell-White said.
"For any city to pop up in the top 10, if not as No. 5, in five years is remarkable," Shelswell-White said. "We have diverted a lot of energy into making it work, and we have seen the results."
Insiders have speculated that Southwest was losing money as it gained customers in Denver. Shelswell-White said Southwest doesn't talk about individual city profitability, adding, however, "We wouldn't continue to grow in the market if it weren't working for us."
Read more: Southwest jumps Frontier in market share at Denver airport - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_17936099#ixzz2nIc41tiy
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
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"Our growth is no secret," said Edward Shelswell-White, Southwest's market strategy and performance director. "We have grown at a record pace in Denver, which is the fastest-growing city in our network."
Southwest has focused on attracting Colorado travelers, and escalated its market push "tremendously" in Denver, Shelswell-White said.
"For any city to pop up in the top 10, if not as No. 5, in five years is remarkable," Shelswell-White said. "We have diverted a lot of energy into making it work, and we have seen the results."
Insiders have speculated that Southwest was losing money as it gained customers in Denver. Shelswell-White said Southwest doesn't talk about individual city profitability, adding, however, "We wouldn't continue to grow in the market if it weren't working for us."
Read more: Southwest jumps Frontier in market share at Denver airport - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/ci_17936099#ixzz2nIc41tiy
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
I don't think anyone disputes that DEN has been WN's fastest growing city these last few years…that doesn't mean it has been making any money though. This line speaks volumes, however:
Haha, "working for us" talk about marketing/corporate doublespeak for "not nearly as lucrative as we thought"
FWIW, United isn't making any money in DEN either. It's where yields go to die.
Anyway, sorry for the detour… back to your regularly scheduled topic.
WNMECH said:
Haha, "working for us" talk about marketing/corporate doublespeak for "not nearly as lucrative as we thought"
FWIW, United isn't making any money in DEN either. It's where yields go to die.
Anyway, sorry for the detour… back to your regularly scheduled topic.
Insiders have speculated that Southwest was losing money as it gained customers in Denver. Shelswell-White said Southwest doesn't talk about individual city profitability, adding, however, "We wouldn't continue to grow in the market if it weren't working for us."
Then you have a named SWA spokesperson refuting that claim for the record.
Yes it does speak volumes. You have unnamed "industry insiders" speculating.AdAstraPerAspera said:
Then you have a named SWA spokesperson refuting that claim for the record.
AdAstraPerAspera
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WNMECH said:
What are you talking about? The spokesperson deliberately says nothing about profitability other than a vague statement that the market "works"-- that certainly doesn't mean it was making a single dime. Your own article even says that there is rampant speculation that DEN is unprofitable. Your article practically makes my entire point even more clear… LOL. Just a bunch of corporate spokespeople-speak that is left to be interpreted any way you wish, but clearly they are not raking in the cash.
Obviously WN went into DEN and was ok operating at a loss for years thinking that F9 would eventually exit the market and the situation would improve. That gambit hasn't worked out. F9 is turning its fortunes around and doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Meanwhile, WN management must be adjusting to the new reality that DEN will have a lot of service-- a lot of high-cost, low-revenue service, and they are apparently ok with that, and that's ok, they really have no other choice.
Of course this thread is about Love Field, so I digress...
The only person on the record was a SWA spokesperson. Who said "We wouldn't continue to grow in the market if it weren't working for us."AdAstraPerAspera said:
That was 3 years ago where SWA continued to grow into the #1 carrier in Denver.
It doesn't take a Nobel Prize in common sense to see that Denver is obviously working for us.
So I am still waiting for you to prove your speculation that "Denver is a money pit for WN" other than your lame claim "I've heard it from several people I know at WN".
You made the statement.
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
WNMECH said:
"Working for us" is a vague statement that could mean anything. Holly Hegeman reported on her blog a few years ago (around the same time as your spokesperson made this statement) that WN has not been as successful in DEN as they had hoped, and the situation hasn't really changed all that much since then.
If DEN was profitable for WN, why didn't the spokesperson just come out and say so?
WNMECH said:
WN is the #1 carrier in Denver? Really? I hadn't heard that United had pulled out of DEN. Crazy stuff
Here is a more recent article on how WN is doing in Denver.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324299104578527301162186278
Southwest, which began flights at Denver International just seven years ago, passed United last summer as the biggest carrier of local passengers there (not counting connecting passengers). United's total passenger count fell by 1.2 million passengers last year and Frontier suffered a decline of 124,000 passengers, while Southwest was up more than 1 million. Southwest carries more local customers to Los Angeles and Chicago than United, and is catching up in Boston, too. Denver is already the fifth-biggest city for Southwest in flights, making Denver busier for Southwest than longtime strongholds Houston and Dallas.
"Denver is the fastest-growing city in our history," said Robert E. Jordan, Southwest's chief commercial officer. He said he expected growth, but "I'm surprised at how quickly it's occurred."
Yeah you must be right. A real money pit.
And yes really, the #1 airline in Denver. Maybe you should go back to your sources at WN and get filled in.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324299104578527301162186278
Southwest, which began flights at Denver International just seven years ago, passed United last summer as the biggest carrier of local passengers there (not counting connecting passengers). United's total passenger count fell by 1.2 million passengers last year and Frontier suffered a decline of 124,000 passengers, while Southwest was up more than 1 million. Southwest carries more local customers to Los Angeles and Chicago than United, and is catching up in Boston, too. Denver is already the fifth-biggest city for Southwest in flights, making Denver busier for Southwest than longtime strongholds Houston and Dallas.
"Denver is the fastest-growing city in our history," said Robert E. Jordan, Southwest's chief commercial officer. He said he expected growth, but "I'm surprised at how quickly it's occurred."
Yeah you must be right. A real money pit.
And yes really, the #1 airline in Denver. Maybe you should go back to your sources at WN and get filled in.
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
I see a whole lot of numbers in that post and not a single one about $$$. 
AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
WNMECH said:
Local pax does not equal total pax. United still the largest carrier in DEN.
Also, you can be the largest carrier in a market and still not make a penny-- funny how your article still refuses to answer any questions about revenue.
AdAstraPerAspera said:
http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1&Airport=DEN&Airport_Name=Denver,%20CO:%20Denver%20International&carrier=FACTS
Your not going to win that Nobel Prize apparently.
AdAstraPerAspera
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…still waiting for a single number about profitability.
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