No one is required to use a TT service. You pay for convenience. We do have a 401K open to all. AA doesnt match any part, although they do offer a set pension. I know thats a let down to the hundred or so pursers at TW that got a small match. To vast majority of the people its nothing new. Except for the fact that we have a greater selection of funds to choose from, over the few TW offered in its plan. Interesting to note, the raise and the purser pay here will net you more than what you made at TW, with the old 401k match.
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Skyword Article-TWA Senority Dispute
- Thread starter riptide44
- Start date
- Status
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/29/2002 8:41:01 PM FA Mikey wrote:
[P]We do have a 401K open to all. AA doesnt match any part, although they do offer a set pension. I know thats a let down to the hundred or so pursers at TW that got a small match. To vast majority of the people its nothing new.[/P]
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[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]Mikey - [/SPAN][/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]You are incorrect about TWA's contribution to 401K's.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]All TWA F/A's enjoyed 6.25% (gross W-2 wages) matching contribution to their 401K funded by TWA.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]In addition, many TWA F/A's enjoyed a TWA funded defined pension plan and in fact continue to enjoy them via the PBGC.[/SPAN][/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]Please be more careful with posting inaccurate information as it diminishes your credibility.[?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com
fficeffice /][o][/o][/SPAN][/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/29/2002 8:41:01 PM FA Mikey wrote:
[P]We do have a 401K open to all. AA doesnt match any part, although they do offer a set pension. I know thats a let down to the hundred or so pursers at TW that got a small match. To vast majority of the people its nothing new.[/P]
[P]----------------[/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]Mikey - [/SPAN][/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]You are incorrect about TWA's contribution to 401K's.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]All TWA F/A's enjoyed 6.25% (gross W-2 wages) matching contribution to their 401K funded by TWA.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]In addition, many TWA F/A's enjoyed a TWA funded defined pension plan and in fact continue to enjoy them via the PBGC.[/SPAN][/P]
[P][SPAN style=FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial]Please be more careful with posting inaccurate information as it diminishes your credibility.[?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com
fficeffice /][o][/o][/SPAN][/P][/BLOCKQUOTE][P][/P]
Sgt. Friday
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
- 20
- 0
Mikey, Hunter is right you were incorrect to say that only the pursers/FSM's actually were the only ones to recieve 401 money.. it's worthy noting that AA is now moving to TWA's old 401 company American Century to handle supersaver. As for trip trading, they seem to have a better selection of trips and earlier access to it than the mass of f/a's does that seem fair to you? Probably. We are glad to work for an airline like AA. We are not happy with our treatment however and unlike our AA counterparts we have learned over the years how to work at changing things and also that we do not have to settle for mistreatment. What sense does it make to anyone that you force AA f/a's to NYC who don't want to go while many TWA f/a's are forced to commute due to closing their base? This would have been a win for everyone involved. AA and it's people seem to only want to win when it means the demise of everything it deems in it's way. How sad for you.
kirkpatrick
Veteran
[blockquote]
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On 10/30/2002 2
44 AM Sgt. Friday wrote:
As for trip trading, they seem to have a better selection of trips and earlier access to it than the mass of f/a's does that seem fair to you?
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[/blockquote]
Traders have no special access to trips. In fact, since we can't touch open time, we have less access to trips than you do. The only access to trips I have is people like you calling me and saying take my trip, please. That and the Hiboard, which I have to admit is a great asset and one we didn't have at TWA.
Overall, however, the trading system at AA is complicated and clunky. All we can look forward to is a few minor changes every now and then. It will never be like TWA, and there's nothing we can do but learn to make it work for us and make the best of it.
MK (30 yr TWA vet and licensed AA trip trader)
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On 10/30/2002 2
44 AM Sgt. Friday wrote: As for trip trading, they seem to have a better selection of trips and earlier access to it than the mass of f/a's does that seem fair to you?
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[/blockquote]
Traders have no special access to trips. In fact, since we can't touch open time, we have less access to trips than you do. The only access to trips I have is people like you calling me and saying take my trip, please. That and the Hiboard, which I have to admit is a great asset and one we didn't have at TWA.
Overall, however, the trading system at AA is complicated and clunky. All we can look forward to is a few minor changes every now and then. It will never be like TWA, and there's nothing we can do but learn to make it work for us and make the best of it.
MK (30 yr TWA vet and licensed AA trip trader)
As far as trip trade services go. I never pay someone to put trips on my schedule. I learned (and it didn't take me long) how to do the 2 for 1. If your too lazy to learn then go ahead and pay someone to do it for you. Trip trade services are under quidelines from the company. They can not touch Open time. Trip trade services are not suppose to have your password. If they do then it is the flight attendants themselves that open up Open time to fraudulent use by trip trade services. I don't doubt that some trip trade services are trying to charge people for trips off HIBOARD. If the trip is in HIBOARD then it should be avail to any f/a that wants to pick it up free of charge. If the trip trade service wants to make money off this trip then they should charge the person making the drop.
People on this thread spend a lot of time bashing each others opinions about matters that will most likely not have much bearing on the TWA LLC - AFPA - AA lawsuit. It is probably more important from the legal point of view to understand Labor Law, motivations and understandings that went on between the parties involved. It might be more profitable to know what the bankruptcy Judge understood as the means the parties would integrate the workforces after the scope provisions were given up. What were the understandings of all the parties and is there proof of those understandings? What did fair and equitable mean to the parties? What was to be Kasher's role as understood by the parties? What was APFA's role? Did AA sign off on an agreement they felt was not fair and equitable? If so, what action were they expected to take? We will not understand anything about this case till depositions are taken. Then it will be clearer about what was expected of the parties. Was Labor case law followed? I admit to having no verifiable information about such questions and therefore anything I say is pure speculation.
Personally I think there are genuine issues but are they germane in a court of law? Again I admit I do not know. I do not have the slightest about which party might prevail. Whatever the outcome, I believe it is unlikely that AA F/A's will incur much harm. Even if TWA LLC F/A's should prevail and Allegany-Mohawk provisions were suggested as a possible remedy, there is still provision to minimize harm and thus AA F/A's are unlikely to suffer much harm. It does not follow that because one entity acquires another, that either party should expect a windfall in terms of seniority. Windfall to either party I view as highly unlikely outcome. Even if material harm or intentional harm is demonstrated, I still do not believe there would be any seniority windfall. Possibly monetary damages to make complainants whole. That does not negate the idea that should TWA LLC F/A's prevail they would not be given some seniority. But in order to make them whole I do not believe it would be anything greater than what prevailed at the time of the acquisition when TWA had small International and Trans Con operations. The idea that a TWA LLC F/A who had fifteen years seniority and was flying three day domestic trips might displace a six year AA F/A currently flying JFK-LHR I believe is highly, highly, unlikely. A more likely solution would be seniority adjustment giving as an example one year one for four years, some ratio heavily favoring AA F/A's, a solution like the mechanics or some combination that minimized harm.
Were I APFA I would be more concerned about fences than seniority. Integration and fences are oxymoronic terms. One negates the other. Go to the back of the bus and live in STL for the rest of your aviation career would appear to be highly discriminatory and hostile. Should the case get before a jury, a good set of trial lawyers can probably make a powerful case for harm based upon being fenced for what appears to be the rest of their careers. I do believe the fence will go no matter what the outcome. It has to go because if it stays APFA will be discriminating against its own members, a course that will wreck any union. It is also costing AA millions to deadhead AA crews in to fly STL flights at a critical financial time for AA. Whichever party prevails, the hysteria on this BB about possible outcomes is way out of line with anything that some judge, jury, or arbitrator might decide.
Personally I think there are genuine issues but are they germane in a court of law? Again I admit I do not know. I do not have the slightest about which party might prevail. Whatever the outcome, I believe it is unlikely that AA F/A's will incur much harm. Even if TWA LLC F/A's should prevail and Allegany-Mohawk provisions were suggested as a possible remedy, there is still provision to minimize harm and thus AA F/A's are unlikely to suffer much harm. It does not follow that because one entity acquires another, that either party should expect a windfall in terms of seniority. Windfall to either party I view as highly unlikely outcome. Even if material harm or intentional harm is demonstrated, I still do not believe there would be any seniority windfall. Possibly monetary damages to make complainants whole. That does not negate the idea that should TWA LLC F/A's prevail they would not be given some seniority. But in order to make them whole I do not believe it would be anything greater than what prevailed at the time of the acquisition when TWA had small International and Trans Con operations. The idea that a TWA LLC F/A who had fifteen years seniority and was flying three day domestic trips might displace a six year AA F/A currently flying JFK-LHR I believe is highly, highly, unlikely. A more likely solution would be seniority adjustment giving as an example one year one for four years, some ratio heavily favoring AA F/A's, a solution like the mechanics or some combination that minimized harm.
Were I APFA I would be more concerned about fences than seniority. Integration and fences are oxymoronic terms. One negates the other. Go to the back of the bus and live in STL for the rest of your aviation career would appear to be highly discriminatory and hostile. Should the case get before a jury, a good set of trial lawyers can probably make a powerful case for harm based upon being fenced for what appears to be the rest of their careers. I do believe the fence will go no matter what the outcome. It has to go because if it stays APFA will be discriminating against its own members, a course that will wreck any union. It is also costing AA millions to deadhead AA crews in to fly STL flights at a critical financial time for AA. Whichever party prevails, the hysteria on this BB about possible outcomes is way out of line with anything that some judge, jury, or arbitrator might decide.
The fence is a chance for the TW people to have there own. No one will be forced to stay, once the furloughs are back. They keep seniority in the base they brought to the AA system.
The Idea AA is spending extra money to DH AA crews in, is a bit off. We are not working each others a/c and so as the TW planes are retired, AA planes move in. AA can choose to train more people at any time. Then they can fly the AA planes. Would solve any extra layover and or dead head problems.
The Idea AA is spending extra money to DH AA crews in, is a bit off. We are not working each others a/c and so as the TW planes are retired, AA planes move in. AA can choose to train more people at any time. Then they can fly the AA planes. Would solve any extra layover and or dead head problems.
Well, as I understand it, AA has announced it will bring in AA F/O's to fly with TWA CA's. I believe they will be assigned temporary duty in STL at AA expense or DH in to fly flights. All ISL is now flown with native AA crews whose pairings start at ORD or DFW. These pairings cost much more due to the layover in STL and DH expenses from DFW and ORD. Were these flights staffed by TWA LLC crews, they would cost much less. That is my u8nderstanding.
Guest
[blockquote]
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On 10/29/2002 5:27:44 PM Sgt. Friday wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 10/28/2002 10:01:22 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Fact is Ms Cooper is going to try to make a living out filing lawsuits and annoying the hard working AA f/a's.
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[/blockquote]
Wow, ya know first off the AA contract is pathetic. Bad work rules,no 401, just crew meals and hotels by the mall. Trip trading is ridiculous and Mr. Ward has handcuffed both the company and the memebership by his ill thought actions. You under estimate Ms. Cooper and that is a mistake. Your own Executive Board is rapidly growing tired of the situation Jon Ward has created and will eventually oust him themselves. What you had better realize asap is that you and the apfa memebership are not far from the same position TWA was in. The only reason someone doesn't take it over is that there is no place to pawn the assets. Eagle is growing at the expense of it's Parent. You may all be working for 1/4 of your salary if your not careful. Sherry Cooper is winning already and John Ward is no match for her.
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[/blockquote]
if AA had a contract like TWA we would be out of business....do the numbers we are alive and flying you are not and stapled to the bottom
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On 10/29/2002 5:27:44 PM Sgt. Friday wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/28/2002 10:01:22 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Fact is Ms Cooper is going to try to make a living out filing lawsuits and annoying the hard working AA f/a's.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Wow, ya know first off the AA contract is pathetic. Bad work rules,no 401, just crew meals and hotels by the mall. Trip trading is ridiculous and Mr. Ward has handcuffed both the company and the memebership by his ill thought actions. You under estimate Ms. Cooper and that is a mistake. Your own Executive Board is rapidly growing tired of the situation Jon Ward has created and will eventually oust him themselves. What you had better realize asap is that you and the apfa memebership are not far from the same position TWA was in. The only reason someone doesn't take it over is that there is no place to pawn the assets. Eagle is growing at the expense of it's Parent. You may all be working for 1/4 of your salary if your not careful. Sherry Cooper is winning already and John Ward is no match for her.
----------------
[/blockquote]
if AA had a contract like TWA we would be out of business....do the numbers we are alive and flying you are not and stapled to the bottom
Guest
[blockquote]
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On 10/29/2002 10:44:13 AM FA Mikey wrote:
This union has served us well. The reports of its impending death are highly over rated.
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[/blockquote]
that is too bad if he wasnt around things would be better
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On 10/29/2002 10:44:13 AM FA Mikey wrote:
This union has served us well. The reports of its impending death are highly over rated.
----------------
[/blockquote]
that is too bad if he wasnt around things would be better
Sgt. Friday
Member
- Oct 29, 2002
- 20
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/31/2002 8:57:09 PM FA Mikey wrote:
The fence is a chance for the TW people to have there own. No one will be forced to stay, once the furloughs are back. They keep seniority in the base they brought to the AA system.
The Idea AA is spending extra money to DH AA crews in, is a bit off. We are not working each others a/c and so as the TW planes are retired, AA planes move in. AA can choose to train more people at any time. Then they can fly the AA planes.
----------------
Well Mikey, there you have it. You see AA Ms Allen, proposed sending us to training. John Ward wouldn't sign off. Said AA never wanted to, got caught in a lie, backed off and also said he would not sign off to allow inter base transfers. To what end? Also your fence statement is pure BULL. We came into the Aquisition with NYC, BOS, LAX, DEN, TPA,MSP,ATL,SFO, SAN flying. Herding us all into STL was not preserving what we brought. Your crews now fly many places out of NYC that we did. AA does have a company to run we want it to be the best. We celebrate TWA because we kept it alive much longer than it should have. It had plenty of faults. But, watching my new company continually stumble during these hard times without an apparent clue hurts because I want to work for a good top professional airline. While AA has been financially successful up till now, it lacks seriously in it's ability to overcome and adapt to this current crises. Your union/my union APFA will serve noone if it is broken by litigation. problem is by not finding a suitable solution that in some way serves all it's members it is likely to fall. It has already failed. John Ward had an opportunity to become a Hero. He chose a narrow minded path of discrimination, Pig headedness and dictatorship. His own Board members say they are tired off being kept out of the loop. I have not always been on the same side as Sherry Cooper. I can say that the difference though is that as an elected president Sherry represented all her constituents. i'm paid up in my dues. How many AA f/a's are not? When does John Ward come to STL to speak to 3000 of his members? When does he do one thing to serve me as his member? Not yet that's for sure. That's what the judge will be hearing. Even if date of hire were ordered, the impact is so nil that it makes no business sense for John ward not to come up with a settlement that works. He won't even try. His hatred will be his demise. It always is. Yes, He could have been a hero.
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On 10/31/2002 8:57:09 PM FA Mikey wrote:
The fence is a chance for the TW people to have there own. No one will be forced to stay, once the furloughs are back. They keep seniority in the base they brought to the AA system.
The Idea AA is spending extra money to DH AA crews in, is a bit off. We are not working each others a/c and so as the TW planes are retired, AA planes move in. AA can choose to train more people at any time. Then they can fly the AA planes.
----------------
Well Mikey, there you have it. You see AA Ms Allen, proposed sending us to training. John Ward wouldn't sign off. Said AA never wanted to, got caught in a lie, backed off and also said he would not sign off to allow inter base transfers. To what end? Also your fence statement is pure BULL. We came into the Aquisition with NYC, BOS, LAX, DEN, TPA,MSP,ATL,SFO, SAN flying. Herding us all into STL was not preserving what we brought. Your crews now fly many places out of NYC that we did. AA does have a company to run we want it to be the best. We celebrate TWA because we kept it alive much longer than it should have. It had plenty of faults. But, watching my new company continually stumble during these hard times without an apparent clue hurts because I want to work for a good top professional airline. While AA has been financially successful up till now, it lacks seriously in it's ability to overcome and adapt to this current crises. Your union/my union APFA will serve noone if it is broken by litigation. problem is by not finding a suitable solution that in some way serves all it's members it is likely to fall. It has already failed. John Ward had an opportunity to become a Hero. He chose a narrow minded path of discrimination, Pig headedness and dictatorship. His own Board members say they are tired off being kept out of the loop. I have not always been on the same side as Sherry Cooper. I can say that the difference though is that as an elected president Sherry represented all her constituents. i'm paid up in my dues. How many AA f/a's are not? When does John Ward come to STL to speak to 3000 of his members? When does he do one thing to serve me as his member? Not yet that's for sure. That's what the judge will be hearing. Even if date of hire were ordered, the impact is so nil that it makes no business sense for John ward not to come up with a settlement that works. He won't even try. His hatred will be his demise. It always is. Yes, He could have been a hero.
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