Shop Stewards new athority

[ThirdSeatHero]

Over the next four years the Company implemented three rounds of force majeure layoffs impacting over three thousand workers and was the only management that managed to declare the Iraq war a force majeure incident.

In a word, WRONG.

NWA was NOT the only management to implement force majuere.

March, 2003. The management at UAL layed off over 1,000 AMTs from IND due to force majuere.

.......Oh, and that was under the iam.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Propose what you want. The delegates at Conventions are members and if they don't accept your proposal it doesn't mean they or the Union are undemocratic.

Bill,

I've used Kirky's saying for over three years now as my signature, but this quote is priceless, time to take Kirky's quote down.

BTW...what happened to AA's force majuere, oh that's right it only got rid of thousands of TWAers, and they don't count except for elections. :down:

 

[Hackman]

Bill,

I've used Kirky saying for over three years now as my signature, but this quote is priceless, time to take Kirky quote down.

BTW...what happened to AA's force majuere, oh that's right it only got rid of thousands of TWAers, and they don't count except for elections. :down:

That's ok AMFAMAN, we still have, "to the doors and stop!!!" Which is now "to the stalls and mop"!!!

Shhhhh.... your only suppose to bring up TWAers when the twu needs to stop an election. h34r:

 

[Bob Owens]

Nice try Bobby! I did not say amfa got the ball rolling. I stated that that was your position but,

Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right??

You wrote it not me.

in fact, as most NWA mechanics now make clear, everything that amfa gained in wages in that agreement was paid for by layoffs and outsourcing.

Well, if true, at least they got something, unlike the TWU that has been giving the company huge concessions for over 20 years. Concessions that reduced our real pay and eliminated jobs. The company grew but the rate of A&P jobs did not grow at the same rate. If the TWU had not given away so much A&P work to other TWU members there would have been thousands more A&Ps jobs out there, not only in OH but on the line stations as well. Since much of AAs growth was at the expense of other carriers the net effect of the TWUs actions was a severe decline in the need for A&P mechanics and the systematic elimination of A&P jobs. Stations such as Buffalo, where they even had a hangar were shut down for A&Ps, even though the TWU remained. So dont try and tell an A&P about outsorcing, our jobs have been outsourced within the TWU for decades.

When amfa signed the 2001 agreement with NWA there were close to 10,000 mechanic and related on the property. Over the next four years the Company implemented three rounds of force majeure layoffs impacting over three thousand workers and was the only management that managed to declare the Iraq war a force majeure incident.

What ever happened to our Force Majeure grievance?

Out of these 3100 or so mechanic and related who were laid off, amfa managed to get about 75 their jobs back.In addition to this, there were "voluntary" layoffs from mechanics and cleaners who didn't want to move after NWA decided to pare down, destaff or close their stations or facilities as they did at Atlanta and, for cleaners, at Memphis.

How many layoffs of mechanics have there been at AMFA represented SWA? How many paycuts?

When AMFA filed for a vote at AA the TWU/AA claimed we had over 18000 in the class and craft, yet the Title 1 list sits at around 10,000 today. So we have lost thousands of jobs as well,some through layoffs the rest through attrition, but no matter how you label it thousands of jobs are gone.

All in all by the time the strike rolled around the mechanic and related workforce had been cut from 10,000 to less than 4100 active mechanic and related. At the same time the workforce had been cut by sixty percent the level of outsourcing increased and more than half the heavy checks were already outsourced. This part should not have been a surprise because if you read the transcript of the PEB, amfa's own witnesses made a point of saying that their new language allowed the Company to outsource at levels higher than they had done before and was a source of savings. All this damage was done under the terms of the supposed industry leading contract and before the Company imposed a single concession after the strike. As a NWA mechanic made clear on this Board, the new agreement amfa just presented to its members not only does not guarantee a single job (aside from those held by scabs), or return a single benefit, it does not even allow strikers to bump out scabs holding the few jobs that are left even though the scabs are junior to them.

I agree that the current NWA deal sucks, its pretty much the same deal we have. In fact we pioneered most of those concessions, and we did so with our union sitting side by side with management instead of fighting it. Reduced sick time, elimination of holiday pay, lost vacation, double digit paycuts and thousands of jobs eliminated were all well inn place several years prior to the NWA deal.Now our union is working with management to reward them for what they did to us by trying to increase productiovity without anything in return.

As for the changes proposed by Informer, while I am not an expert on various unions' constitutions, I believe your account of what presently exists is not accurate. The TWU Constitution provides increases for its officers based on the weighted average in TWU negotiated agreements.

I believe you are wrong, the only person whose pay is determined by the secret weighted average formula, which no one actually gets to see, is the President, all others are determined by the IEC or IAC. So any officer other than the Presidenbt can and usually does recieve raises even when the members take pay cuts.

Also the TWU formula only counts raises, not paycuts, whereas AMFAs pay rates takes in both. If AMFA organized Eagle and they accepted a nickel raise in their new contract it would bring the Presidents pay down, however if the TWU organized minimum wage school bus drivers from Arkansas and got them a nickel raise it would bring the Presidents pay up even though the average wage of the membership as a whole declined. The AMFA formula ties the pay directly to the average memberships pay, the TWU foremula guarantees that the President recieves increases even if the average membership pay decreases.

One doesn't seem any more tied to the members than the other.

Thats because you didnt look close enough at the differences, at AMFA the President only gets raises if the membership as a whole sees increases whereas with the TWU they can putv in a 25% paycut with 1.5% increases and since only the increases are counted they still get a raise. At the TWU the President still gets raises even if the membership as a whole is getting paycuts.

But, I don't care. Propose what you want. The delegates at Conventions are members and if they don't accept your proposal it doesn't mean they or the Union are undemocratic.

Sure it does.

As for all of your ideas of destroying the TWU and the AFL-CIO and creating your federation of independent unions that doesn't engage in politics, before you destroy anything send your program (in fact, send this string) to any union that actually represents people, independent or otherwise, and lets see if a single one buys into your program and is willing to work with you.

From the members perspective the TWU and AFL-CIO have already been destroyed. They have proven to be totally ineffective. At present they simply collect dues and do little to nothing for the members. In fact they even try to prevent the members from gaining accountability from their own unions by fighting more detailed reporting requirements. While the Internationals demand detailed reports from the Locals the members are not entitlted to the same amount of disclosure from their Internationals.

While I agree that unions must take part in the political arena they must also realize that its a forum where they are outspent 10-to 1. In other words its a forum where they can not win. In order to win they must work outside the system as well, and that means strikes, sitdowns and other work stoppages, or at least the threat of them. If we cant at least be given a level playing field within the system then we need to create enough disruption outside of it to the point where we are courted back in.

Recent rulings by the courts make it plain as day that despite legislation that says otherwise that we have no rights as workers. The rights of workers have been cast aside in order to give Capital broader rights. Our contracts are worthless and unenforcable from a members point of view and the AFL-CIO has done nothing. Instead they claim that we should stay the course that brought us to where we are, because that course still provides those in power a good living and security. Our dues provide for them what they no longer provide for us.

Post what you sent them and post the response. If there is no response and committment, we can only assume that following you will lead us right to where the NWA mechanics are--isolated, vulnerable, and on the street.

Well most of the mechanics have found re-employment, other workers would likely not fare as well,in fact NWA told their employees to get what they need out of dumpsters. Your TWU and AFL-CIO are doing nothing about the decline of the American worker other than making a few speeches and watching to see how their investments are doing.

 

[AMFAMAN]

When AMFA filed for a vote at AA the TWU/AA claimed we had over 18000 in the class and craft, yet the Title 1 list sits at around 10,000 today. So we have lost thousands of jobs as well,some through layoffs the rest through attrition, but no matter how you label it thousands of jobs are gone.

Bob:

They ran the number up to 22,000, before the NMB put the 18,601 number out. Based on their sworn testimony before the NMB with the numbers, we have dropped from 22,000 in M&R at the merger, to less than 14,000 including the title 3 cleaners, and an additional 3,000 on layoff in M&R. :down:

This includes those TWAers that they just keep around for election purposes.

 

[TWU informer]

Bill is ALOT like Hammack and has been a company man, and anti-profession since the day he hired on at AA.

Likely will be in management shortly after the members vote him out of office

 

[Bill]

Oh look, Informer's lame attempt to call someone out. Isn't that against board rules???? Come on Informer, a bit of a stretch. From what I hear Hammack, and other 514 officers, have helped out many of you "haters". It's funny like that though isn't it? You get help with a problem then when it's all said and done it's back to the old childhood ways of talking behind people's backs and dissing them on public forums. Does he REALLY know how you feel or are you too scared to say it to his face? It's easier to be tough on the boards huh?? h34r: Incognito hey Informer!! He should get a good laugh out of this one!!



Now, back to why I came back to this post.......

When I last left this "debate" I was being accused of agreeing that "amfa got the ball rolling" with its 2001 contract at NWA even though I placed three question marks after the sentence. Nice try!! In point of fact, the 2001 contract permitted NWA to reduce its mechanic workforce by sixty percent, outsource the majority of its heavy checks, and take its workforce down to 4100 active employees. Third Seat argued that, contrary to what I said, NWA wasn't the only carrier that used the Iraq War to invoke force majeure. I made this last statement based on information given me by an amfa rep out in the hallway after one of their Tulsa meetings a while back who told me that there was no way that amfa would lose force majeure II (the Iraq War) because NWA was the only carrier that invoked force majeure on this event, and that he expected me to sign a card when they won. They, of course as we all know now, lost.

I was ready to stand corrected on whether UAL invoked force majeure on the Iraq War until I did a little research and found that the IAM sued them when they made this claim and on April 3, 2003. UAL settled the suit by backing off and agreeing to pay severance and apply the contract to the layoffs. UAL, of course, got what it wanted from the IAM a few days later in the bankruptcy process, just as it did from amfa two years later. NWA was the only carrier to successfully invoke force majeure based on the Iraq War and have its action sustained by an arbitrator against a union (amfa).

As for AMFAMAN's quote, it is true that delegates to TWU Conventions are directly elected by TWU members. It is also true that they have the right to accept or reject proposals to change the TWU Constitution on officer pay or other matters. I have seen them reject proposals by Sonny Hall and by Roger Toussaint. I have seen 514 delegates vote against the position of the International, and the positions taken by Dennis and Ed Wilson. More often than you want or choose to believe. There is nothing undemocratic about this.

 

[eolesen]

Nothing undemocratic except for the fact that the leadership is hand-picked and there's no way to vote them out once annointed, er, appointed...

 

[AMFAMAN]

As for AMFAMAN's quote, it is true that delegates to TWU Conventions are directly elected by TWU members. It is also true that they have the right to accept or reject proposals to change the TWU Constitution on officer pay or other matters. I have seen them reject proposals by Sonny Hall and by Roger Toussaint. I have seen 514 delegates vote against the position of the International, and the positions taken by Dennis and Ed Wilson. More often than you want or choose to believe. There is nothing undemocratic about this.

That's not my quote, it's yours laughing@you, Bill, or whatever you feel like going under. Not having a full membership vote on changes to the Constitution or on the International officers and other side-jobs employee is un-Democratic.

You call a drunkfest in Las Vegas every 4 years with some local officers renting the top floor of the Hilton with Limo service (and I've heard escort service) to the convention a form of democracy? :down:

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Now, back to why I came back to this post.......

Thank you for favoring us with your presence, but, really, you needn't have bothered.

.

 

[TWU informer]

Oh look, Informer's lame attempt to call someone out. Isn't that against board rules???? Come on Informer, a bit of a stretch. From what I hear Hammack, and other 514 officers, have helped out many of you "haters". It's funny like that though isn't it? You get help with a problem then when it's all said and done it's back to the old childhood ways of talking behind people's backs and dissing them on public forums. Does he REALLY know how you feel or are you too scared to say it to his face? It's easier to be tough on the boards huh?? h34r: Incognito hey Informer!! He should get a good laugh out of this one!!

I see that I pushed the panic button! You must be talking about the days of RatFest when Hammack was out on the ramp whining to Dave Kruse about AMFA guys while the tape recorder was turned on. Is that the help for the haters you talk about?

Don't worry Kevin, this is our little secret. I wont even tell Carmine.

You other guys have it all wrong Bill and laughing@u are both named Kevin, but they are not the same person, just the same mentality.

Although the part about being scared is a little off, that would be another Kevin who likes to beat up union officers/members in the parking lot. You remember, the Assault and Battery champion. But all three are named Kevin, imagine that?

 

[TWU informer]

Nothing undemocratic except for the fact that the leadership is hand-picked and there's no way to vote them out once annointed, er, appointed...

Please don't confuse the man with the facts!

He was on roll giving a disertation about his dream world of a democratic TWU.

I think if he wasn't a low seniority guy, he would know the real story about how Ed Wilson had won the Int'l Presidents position at the TWU Convention of 1989, only to have a re-vote taken that removed the Eastern Flight Attendants from the balloting and thus the same dictators prevailed. The guy/delegate that submitted the election result protest was subsequently appointed the International Staff and has been there ever since. But since Bill wasn't even working here then, he goes by the dreaded TWU spin machine on Pine Street for his version of the "facts"!

Tell us Bill, has the membership ever voted on a guy named Gary Drummond for International Rep?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Tell us Bill, has the membership ever voted on a guy named Gary Drummond for International Rep?

I don't recall any international rep being elected by anybody.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Now, back to why I came back to this post.......

Third Seat argued that, contrary to what I said, NWA wasn't the only carrier that used the Iraq War to invoke force majeure. I made this last statement based on information given me by an amfa rep out in the hallway after one of their Tulsa meetings a while back who told me that there was no way that amfa would lose force majeure II (the Iraq War) because NWA was the only carrier that invoked force majeure on this event, and that he expected me to sign a card when they won. They, of course as we all know now, lost.

I was ready to stand corrected on whether UAL invoked force majeure on the Iraq War until I did a little research and found that the IAM sued them when they made this claim and on April 3, 2003. UAL settled the suit by backing off and agreeing to pay severance and apply the contract to the layoffs. UAL, of course, got what it wanted from the IAM a few days later in the bankruptcy process, just as it did from amfa two years later. NWA was the only carrier to successfully invoke force majeure based on the Iraq War and have its action sustained by an arbitrator against a union (amfa).

Nice try Bill.

You still stand corrected. By your own admission, you were talking about something you had only hearsay knowledge of, You had absolutely no clue about UAL until I mentioned it here, and as if we're supposed to believe you actually took an AMFA rep at his word. Right.

You're wrong, period.

Whether or not the iam leveraged a settlement out of UAL makes no difference, UAL DID declare force majeure to effect the layoffs. If you had actually done your research you would've found out that it was AMFA that took the matter of the improper IND layoffs to arbitration two years later. The iam only got UAL to agree to pay severance benefits, they did NOTHING about the improper layoff.

This is just one brief on the AMFA arbitration written by UAL ACAC Jim Seitz.

"November 9 IMC Layoff Arbitration Hearing
Nick Grannath and Jim Dykehouse, AMFA Legal and I presented case evidence for the Indianapolis layoff grievances in Chicago to Arbitrator Richard Bloch. The case involves the improper furlough of mechanics from the Indianapolis Maintenance Center, IMC, in 2002 and 2003. Our position is that all mechanics when furloughed should have been allowed to exercise their seniority rights per LOA 74-1M. This allows station preference by seniority and allows mechanics to choose options available when they are being furloughed from their station. Our case is based on clear contract language and established layoff and recall procedures. Mr. Grannath reported after the hearing that our presentation went as planned and the arbitrator also commented that the union's presentation was "very comprehensive." We are waiting for the hearing transcripts and will draft our closing arguments that are due 30 days after receipt of the transcripts. The arbitrator will then review the arguments and make a decision."

 

[High Speed Steel]

Nice try Bill.

You still stand corrected. By your own admission, you were talking about something you had only hearsay knowledge of, You had absolutely no clue about UAL until I mentioned it here, and as if we're supposed to believe you actually took an AMFA rep at his word. Right.

You're wrong, period.

Whether or not the iam leveraged a settlement out of UAL makes no difference, UAL DID declare force majeure to effect the layoffs. If you had actually done your research you would've found out that it was AMFA that took the matter of the improper IND layoffs to arbitration two years later. The iam only got UAL to agree to pay severance benefits, they did NOTHING about the improper layoff.

This is just one brief on the AMFA arbitration written by UAL ACAC Jim Seitz.

"November 9 IMC Layoff Arbitration Hearing
Nick Grannath and Jim Dykehouse, AMFA Legal and I presented case evidence for the Indianapolis layoff grievances in Chicago to Arbitrator Richard Bloch. The case involves the improper furlough of mechanics from the Indianapolis Maintenance Center, IMC, in 2002 and 2003. Our position is that all mechanics when furloughed should have been allowed to exercise their seniority rights per LOA 74-1M. This allows station preference by seniority and allows mechanics to choose options available when they are being furloughed from their station. Our case is based on clear contract language and established layoff and recall procedures. Mr. Grannath reported after the hearing that our presentation went as planned and the arbitrator also commented that the union's presentation was "very comprehensive." We are waiting for the hearing transcripts and will draft our closing arguments that are due 30 days after receipt of the transcripts. The arbitrator will then review the arguments and make a decision."

So the brief as written shows only the contentions of the association. I see the amfa was hanging their hat on LOA 74-1M. Was this a letter of agreement between the IAM and UAL before amfa became the BA? Is this LOA incorporated into the amfa agreement at UAL?

What was the decision by the arbitrator?