Shop Stewards new athority

[Bill]

While I respect your opinion NHBB, please define "despicable sh*t". The way I see it, is that what is being done is working, working to save your job and thousands of others. It is working to increase revenue so that when it comes contract time there will be something there to get back. It is working to return folks to their status, working to recall folks which is happening right now! There is a lot of griping and complaining that is done on these boards but I have NEVER once read of another solution. Tell me, and anyone else can chime in, what would you do? What would you do to improve our chances of getting anything back? What would your strategy be? How would you handle things if you were in a TWU leadership role, on a local level not internat'l? I am not being a smart ass, but simply posing a question to whomever wants to answer. It's very easy to complain about things but doing something about it is a whole different story.

Looks as if this post was overlooked. Noone wants to make a comment or suggestion on this one?????


Holy cow, so I use the term "middle man", (apparently the wrong comparison for Mr. Owens) but if you will read the whole post you will get the gist of what I was saying. It is not the SS's job to run to management, never has been. And to think this would come to fruition is ridiculous. And while I will agree with some that there are a few SSs who just like the title to get the $$ there are many, many who are very dedicated in seeing that the member is protected. Informer will have you beleive that the whole TUL base is full of suck-asses. Aren't you still a crew chief Informer??? I've met some suck-ass CCs in my day too. Does that make all of them that way??????

Now, back to the reason I posted. I am still waiting, as I have been for over 2 years now for someone to come up with another plan, another strategy, another solution. Not some lame thing like strike or new union or sick-out or the best one I've heard, hand-pay. Yeh boy, that will get'em!!! Hit 'em where it hurts boys!! Truth is you have no plan, no strategy, no solution. Like I said, it's easy to sit back and complain but doing something about it is a different story all together.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Looks as if this post was overlooked. Noone wants to make a comment or suggestion on this one?????


Well Bill,

The reason we are in this mess to begin with is because the TWU, AFL/CIO, and other major unions failed to stick together at the start of the union busting with US Air. Many of us were screaming for our TWU leadership to get involved when they busted their contract 2 or three times. The union force was no where to be seen, They all stood by and watched us air go down, northwest, and united. It was in our best interest to get involved and protect the industry contracts. We knew that if they broke the uS air contract it would have a ripple effect on the industry. didn't our unoin leaders see that or did they ignore it? the government knew that the unions were in self protect mode and would not interfere with the abrogations of the contracts. Everything we were told about unionism was no where to be seen when the industry and it's union members really needed leadership to fight for their families and careers. If the unions got together and fought and lost what we gave up, I would have respected that. But to lay over and just give it to corporate america is unionism at its lowest point. so to answer your question: The chance was lost for a better outcome. The unions and the AFL/CIO let us down failing to represent us. we are stuck with a company union and will have to learn to live with it.

 

[scorpion]

While I respect your opinion NHBB, please define "despicable sh*t". The way I see it, is that what is being done is working, working to save your job and thousands of others. It is working to increase revenue so that when it comes contract time there will be something there to get back. It is working to return folks to their status, working to recall folks which is happening right now! There is a lot of griping and complaining that is done on these boards but I have NEVER once read of another solution. Tell me, and anyone else can chime in, what would you do? What would you do to improve our chances of getting anything back? What would your strategy be? How would you handle things if you were in a TWU leadership role, on a local level not internat'l? I am not being a smart ass, but simply posing a question to whomever wants to answer. It's very easy to complain about things but doing something about it is a whole different story.

Bill
there is nothing wrong with working together with management to reach a common goal but to do it persona non grata on the unions part is where the membership is taking it in the shorts. This is new territory for both parties but the concessionary mentality on the twu's part is something the company has become acustom to. If you want the majority of the membership on board then give them something they can realise from their efforts not tell them be glad you have a job. We gave concessions for that privilege so now we should be receiving some mutual satisfaction from the working together process. Getting something back prior to contract time would sure be better than trying to get it all back at once, agree?
As far as calling people back management has been hiring people for some time now but the only reason anyones getting called back on the union side is because attrition has taken its toll to the point we are getting short handed.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Hey Bill,

What has the AFL/CIO and The TWU done for our careers? We have given back concessions and work rules even during the good times ( 1995-2001) contract. Union membership is down year over year nationwide. Union busting and contract abrogation is epidemic and no mention of fighting this ever? We have no union leadership to stand up. "What ever they want" is there motto or "they can do that". stop blaming the members and put the blame where it belongs our non-existant leaders.

 

[Bill]

Hey Bill,

What has the AFL/CIO and The TWU done for our careers? We have given back concessions and work rules even during the good times ( 1995-2001) contract. Union membership is down year over year nationwide. Union busting and contract abrogation is epidemic and no mention of fighting this ever? We have no union leadership to stand up. "What ever they want" is there motto or "they can do that". stop blaming the members and put the blame where it belongs our non-existant leaders.

But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right???


And yet still no solution, still no game plan from you haters. What's wrong, don't you have one??? Only more griping and complaining. And who is blaming the members Chuck? The TUL union leadership are union members just like you, who happen to be in a leadership role. Sounds to me like you (and all the others) are placing blame on the members. Contrary to what you are hearing way up there in NY, what us Oklahoma "bubbas" (as we are so frequently called around here) are doing at a local level is working. There is absolutley no denying that. What are you doing in NY????? Oh that's right.....complaining about the folks in Tulsa. That helps!

 

[TWU informer]

Game Plan for Bill

ITEM #1

Change TWU Constitution to allow for direct election of all officers and re-call of all officers.

Change TWU Constitution formula away from weighted average officer salary increases and link them directly to members pay.

If this fails, (which it has in the past) form an independent union that has these items in the Constitution. Probably should by-pass this step since it has been at the last 5 TWU Constutional Conventions and failed.

Change the TWU Constitution so that amendments are voted on by the entire membership instead of few frunk cronies who go to the Convention.

ITEM #2

Remove ourselves from the AFL-CIO and form a coalition with other unions that will advocate a third party for the working man into the national and local political process. Remove the beliefs that the Democrats are our friends.

ITEM #3

Take the money that is currently spent on politics and use it to educate union members of their duties as members and the agenda for the future of labor.

ITEM #4

Continue to quest for all Mechanic and Related to belong to the same union and implement transferable seniority from carrier to carrier.

That is a start, I am sure more will be added...

 

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry.

No mention of the worst workrules in the industry, or the many b-scales that the twu have given their buddies.

BTW...and I was at the table at the time, your buddies presented the 2001 pay package and made it known they were matching NWA. Burcehtte wanted to settle for $27.50/hr.

 

[scorpion]

But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right???
And yet still no solution, still no game plan from you haters. What's wrong, don't you have one??? Only more griping and complaining. And who is blaming the members Chuck? The TUL union leadership are union members just like you, who happen to be in a leadership role. Sounds to me like you (and all the others) are placing blame on the members. Contrary to what you are hearing way up there in NY, what us Oklahoma "bubbas" (as we are so frequently called around here) are doing at a local level is working. There is absolutley no denying that. What are you doing in NY????? Oh that's right.....complaining about the folks in Tulsa. That helps!

N/W set the bar on the up side in 2001 and the twu set the bar on the down side in 2003 without going into bankruptcy. When the twu gave up concessions it gave AA an advantage that was short lived due to the fact that everyone else tried to match us on the downside.
If you think the 2001 contract was all good the you need to read the changes made to our scope clause. Our scope was never in black and white but in 2001 it changed.

Can you tell us what those changes were?

 

[TWU informer]

Come on Bill,

I laid a solution/plan now you tell us yours.

Oh that's right, yours is to stay the course kissing management's ass and giving more for less without any guaratee of a crumb in return. :down:

 

[Hackman]

But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right???
And yet still no solution, still no game plan from you haters. What's wrong, don't you have one??? Only more griping and complaining. And who is blaming the members Chuck? The TUL union leadership are union members just like you, who happen to be in a leadership role. Sounds to me like you (and all the others) are placing blame on the members. Contrary to what you are hearing way up there in NY, what us Oklahoma "bubbas" (as we are so frequently called around here) are doing at a local level is working. There is absolutley no denying that. What are you doing in NY????? Oh that's right.....complaining about the folks in Tulsa. That helps!

The highest pay in the industry? You must mean the AMFA contract at NWA that the twu tried to follow and couldn't right? At that time NWA didn't have all the givebacks we've enjoyed for years under the twu reign; prefunding of medical, unpaid lunch, flex benefits, and the list goes on...and we've had these concessions for years during highly profitable times.

What is a "hater" to you Billybob? Is that someone that isn't swallowing the twu/AA goo like you Tulsa twu bubbas are? (BTW I'm glad you finally acknowleged that fact ) What is working at the local 514 level Billy? The "Pulse Line"? The company union pajama parties? Filling the pockets of mAAnagement with money like Burdchette stated?

I have a plan Billdo. How about stopping the 25 years of twu concessions in 08? Lets see the twu get a 26% pay increase starting where we left off before Jim Do-Little slammed us the most massive concessions in labor history... bar none. I know I am dreaming the twu could do this without more concessions, but since "We are now bargaining from a position of strength", and Burdchette says; " I'm a gonna fill them thar management folks pockets with lotsa money....then I'm a gonna git my dadgum hands in thar and pull a bunch out them big 'ol dollars out".

Burdchette better hope so, or the twu will have another card drive on their hands faster his buddy Conman can get his pajamas off at the twu/AA sleepover.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

['Bill' date='Nov 24 2006, 04:18 PM' post='432699']
But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I

Bill,

If you did your homework you would have known that the contract you refer to in 2001 was not negotiated. It was presented to the TWU by the company to stay in parity with the northwest mechanics who fought for those wage increases
and had to obtain it by fighting with a Presidential emergency board 6 months prior to our contract. which I was in attendance. please obtain all the facts before attempting to speak in a forum but thanks for playing anyway !!

ps. the twu has never fought for anything but themselves!

 

[Wretched Wrench]

['Bill' date='Nov 24 2006, 04:18 PM' post='432699']
But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I

Bill,

If you did your homework you would have known that the contract you refer to in 2001 was not negotiated. It was presented to the TWU by the company to stay in parity with the northwest mechanics who fought for those wage increases
and had to obtain it by fighting with a Presidential emergency board 6 months prior to our contract. which I was in attendance. please obtain all the facts before attempting to speak in a forum but thanks for playing anyway !!

ps. the twu has never fought for anything but themselves!

Facts!? Bill don't need no stinkin' facts. Don't got none, neither.

 

[Bob Owens]

But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right???

Glad to see that you finally admit that AMFA got us our raise. There is no denying that, after all if it was the TWU that got us the raise then all the other workgroups under the TWU at AA would have recieved the same raises right? Isnt that a core principle of Industrial Unionism?(Do you know what Industrial unionism is Bill, or are you like Bobby Gless, still waiting for them to teach you about it at the Meany?) But, thats not what happened was it Bill? Our Stores and Fleet guys recieved much less of an increase than we did didnt they Bill? We got the raise we got because thats what AMFA got at NWA, our fleet and stores guys got what they got because thats what the IAM had agreed to at other carriers, theres no denying that Bill. AMFA was voted in after the IAM brought back an inferior agreement, inferior from the mechanics veiw, however other IAM members agreed to smaller increases.

And yet still no solution, still no game plan from you haters. What's wrong, don't you have one???

We've offerd several, the problem is they all require union like activity and thats way too much to ask from the likes of you.

Only more griping and complaining. And who is blaming the members Chuck?

The International and Local leaders always blame the members and you know it Bill. "Oh the members dont participate", "The members need to get involved". Tell us that you have never heard this crap Bill and we all will see what a liar you are.

The TUL union leadership are union members just like you, who happen to be in a leadership role.

But the International are not members like us. They dont work under the same contract, have differnt benifits, different pensions and different pay scales. As far as leadership roles they can only do what the International tells them to do and the members do not pick International officers or reps. The fact is they can not "lead" because they do not own the contract, the International owns the contract.

Sounds to me like you (and all the others) are placing blame on the members. Contrary to what you are hearing way up there in NY, what us Oklahoma "bubbas" (as we are so frequently called around here) are doing at a local level is working. There is absolutley no denying that.

Working at what? Getting the company increased productivity as a reward for gutting our contract?

If you recall they company claimed that they would only come to us for cuts as a last resort. This all proves that was a lie. Prior to the concessions I would and did support any effort to increase productivity thus reducing costs. The company did nothing, instead they retained a bloated headcount in order to pump up the numbers. To enthusiastically support the companys effrts nowwould only be rewarding the company for decieving and screwing us. We all knew that they overhired and continiued hiring after 9-11 and that we could do with less people but that was not our call. The TWU didnt care because increased headcounts is better than OT because it increases dues flow. The company virtually elimated OT which is more cost effective than increasing headcount. Well they got rid of all the surpluss headcount, took away more than 25% of our real pay and now they want to impliment, with our enthusiastic support, what they should have done in the first place, sorry but I'm not buying it. They want it all and they are offering nothing, not even crumbs in return. Basically having the TWU is like not having a union at all, only worse because it costs us $500/year to block us from getting a real union.


AA has $5 billion in the bank,(much of that is right out of our pockets) they just paid off another chunk of debt, they are spending money like a drunken sailor yet they deffered making good on our pension and the TWU is still running the members as if AA "is on the steps" of BK court.

 

[Bill]

Nice try Bobby! I did not say amfa got the ball rolling. I stated that that was your position but, in fact, as most NWA mechanics now make clear, everything that amfa gained in wages in that agreement was paid for by layoffs and outsourcing. When amfa signed the 2001 agreement with NWA there were close to 10,000 mechanic and related on the property. Over the next four years the Company implemented three rounds of force majeure layoffs impacting over three thousand workers and was the only management that managed to declare the Iraq war a force majeure incident. Out of these 3100 or so mechanic and related who were laid off, amfa managed to get about 75 their jobs back. In addition to this, there were "voluntary" layoffs from mechanics and cleaners who didn't want to move after NWA decided to pare down, destaff or close their stations or facilities as they did at Atlanta and, for cleaners, at Memphis. All in all by the time the strike rolled around the mechanic and related workforce had been cut from 10,000 to less than 4100 active mechanic and related. At the same time the workforce had been cut by sixty percent the level of outsourcing increased and more than half the heavy checks were already outsourced. This part should not have been a surprise because if you read the transcript of the PEB, amfa's own witnesses made a point of saying that their new language allowed the Company to outsource at levels higher than they had done before and was a source of savings. All this damage was done under the terms of the supposed industry leading contract and before the Company imposed a single concession after the strike. As a NWA mechanic made clear on this Board, the new agreement amfa just presented to its members not only does not guarantee a single job (aside from those held by scabs), or return a single benefit, it does not even allow strikers to bump out scabs holding the few jobs that are left even though the scabs are junior to them.

As for the changes proposed by Informer, while I am not an expert on various unions' constitutions, I believe your account of what presently exists is not accurate. The TWU Constitution provides increases for its officers based on the weighted average in TWU negotiated agreements. amfa pays its National Director twice the average pay (including premiums) of the technicians it represents. One doesn't seem any more tied to the members than the other. But, I don't care. Propose what you want. The delegates at Conventions are members and if they don't accept your proposal it doesn't mean they or the Union are undemocratic.

As for all of your ideas of destroying the TWU and the AFL-CIO and creating your federation of independent unions that doesn't engage in politics, before you destroy anything send your program (in fact, send this string) to any union that actually represents people, independent or otherwise, and lets see if a single one buys into your program and is willing to work with you. Post what you sent them and post the response. If there is no response and committment, we can only assume that following you will lead us right to where the NWA mechanics are--isolated, vulnerable, and on the street.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

bill,

"But no mention of the last contract when you were given highest pay in the industry. HMMMM??? Imagine that. Oh I know, I know, it was amfa who started that ball rolling we just jumped on right???


And yet still no solution, still no game plan from you haters. What's wrong, don't you have one???"

You admit AMFA got the ball rolling. Just read what you wrote above. Ignorance is bliss.

What would you know of solutions? Oh, I know, I know, when faced with a solution just call upon the dead and unincluded in craft & class to save you, right???

"The delegates at Conventions are members and if they don't accept your proposal it doesn't mean they or the Union are undemocratic."

What is the appointment and not election of atd int. officers?