Scheduling and the FAA

[Travelpro72]

Well this statement will not come as a shocker to anyone but "If we reserves were able to make our time, we would not have to RELY on the ETB on our OFF days to make ends meet". I hope this really makes the company see the light. I think things will be a mess for a while. True, blockholders will NOW see just how it is for only blockholders to fly those trips. Can we say "wake up call"? This does not refer to all blockholders but the ones that had this thing about us reserves getting "all that time" and "all that money". Well we will all be $crewed now! ! ! :unsure:

 

[PITbull]

I simply do not see this happening. As a quick scan of these boards will attest, reserves are not getting there time in as is. Put simply, we are overstaffed. This ruling will result in a few more split trips and things of that nature, and may result in some localized headaches in the smaller bases (although those trips tend to be 1 and 2 days anyway)and crunches during holiday periods, but its not going to result in such a huge ineffeciency that we cannot staff the current schedule with the current workforce.

When this regulation went into effect for the pilots in '99, it did not result in huge numbers of pilot hires, and they were staffed far more tightly than the current f/a situation. You might be right if the airline returns to growth mode - we will have to hire / recall sooner than we otherwise would have, but even that is going to be marginal, IMHO.

The company is not overstaffed. The very nature of the LTO Reserve System is to prevent the reserves from "timing out" early in the month, keeping coverage balanced in the beginning of the month as well as the end of the month.

 

[PITbull]

PITbull, in an earlier post on this thread you said this would create a need for more F/As. In other words, it would take more F/As (and therefore more payroll $) to fly the same schedule, which is more inefficient and leaves less money for other things, like raises.

Now you are saying it will also lead to more leverage to increase wages?

Sometimes your business sense puzzles me.

Its puzzling to you because you've been gone from the profession for quite awhile.

The company will find themselves short reserves because of this FAA ruling. Way I see it, there is contract language that prevents the company from making reserve lines of "days off" in sequence of less than 2 days and the reserves have to have no less than 11 days off per month. There is only 31 days in most months, therefore, in order for the company to comply with FAA, they have no choice but to bring on more reserves and increase the "pool".

The entire reason the company pushed down our throats in BK the LTO reserve system was to eliminate f/as, preventing f/as from "passing" trips and timing out. Then, with the ETB, this method allowed for the company time that was dropped to go into a different "pool of trips" to be bid (first come;first serve) by all f/as including reserves and this time was not counted towards your company time for lineholders; and time on days off on top of gurantee for reserves.

This FAA ruling makes it even more difficult for reserves to capture this time on their days off.

Following the company's line of thinking, either they hire more f/as or negotiate with the MECs.

 

[Bear96]

Its puzzling to you because you've been gone from the profession for quite awhile.

Care to share the date you last flew a trip as a working F/A?

The company will find themselves short reserves because of this FAA ruling.

You managed to totally miss my simple point.

I wasn't disputing that this will or won't create a shortage of reserves. My point was that you are crazy if you think this change will somehow lead to both more F/As being recalled / hired, AND a raise.

 

[PITbull]

It definitely will require a recall of flight attendants. Will not have enough. Just wait and see. That is why the company has not been complying and why the union has not been pushing the issue either.

Its not that the unions (AFA at other airlines too) didn't raise the issue...they did. Crew Sched managers were aware of this issue and the FAA involvement. Trust when I tell you, if we would have grieved it, we would have lost. Why? Because this is going to cost the company tens of millions of $$ in adjusting the schedules which will necessitate HIRING. If you have ever attended a system board grievance, the arbitrator rarily rules in the unions favor...specifically while in bankrupcy, U being in there twice in the past 3 years.

Care to share the date you last flew a trip as a working F/A?
You managed to totally miss my simple point.

I wasn't disputing that this will or won't create a shortage of reserves. My point was that you are crazy if you think this change will somehow lead to both more F/As being recalled / hired, AND a raise.

Again, your simple points escape me.

What I am saying, friend...is that this creates leverage for the unions. If you don't see that "clearly", then all I can imagine is that you've never negotiated anything.

 

[ilg30/7]

The company is not overstaffed. The very nature of the LTO Reserve System is to prevent the reserves from "timing out" early in the month, keeping coverage balanced in the beginning of the month as well as the end of the month.

The LTO system does indeed balance out the time for reserves for the month. The time, absent growth, is going to stay the same. If one reserve is unable to take a trip due to this legality, it will go to another reserve who can. Or the first reserve will split the trip, and the remainder to the second reserve. Until the airline grows, it's a zero sum game.

It will, however, create a crunch at the beginning of the month, traditionally a high open time period. The contract does indeed mandate that reserve lines be built with at least 2 OFF/INV days, but awarding an extra ILG day to cover the month to month transition legality can be a single day, IMO, if that is how the company and the union decide to resolve the matter (this is how it is done for pilots)

 

[PITbull]

The LTO system does indeed balance out the time for reserves for the month. The time, absent growth, is going to stay the same. If one reserve is unable to take a trip due to this legality, it will go to another reserve who can. Or the first reserve will split the trip, and the remainder to the second reserve. Until the airline grows, it's a zero sum game.

It will, however, create a crunch at the beginning of the month, traditionally a high open time period. The contract does indeed mandate that reserve lines be built with at least 2 OFF/INV days, but awarding an extra ILG day to cover the month to month transition legality can be a single day, IMO, if that is how the company and the union decide to resolve the matter (this is how it is done for pilots)

Crunch you say???? A zero sum game?? LOL...

I suggest you read the f/a contract language. Its not the same as the pilots reserve language.

Can't wait to see how the company is going to handle the very thing they feared the most... Yea. Simple indeed. 😛

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

Crunch you say???? A zero sum game?? LOL...

I suggest you read the f/a contract language. Its not the same as the pilots reserve language.

Can't wait to see how the company is going to handle the very thing they feared the most... Yea. Simple indeed. 😛

I'm sure you are...but I really hope you are right!

 

[ilg30/7]

Crunch you say???? A zero sum game?? LOL...

I suggest you read the f/a contract language. Its not the same as the pilots reserve language.

Can't wait to see how the company is going to handle the very thing they feared the most... Yea. Simple indeed. 😛

I have read the language. It says nothing about the awarding of an extra day to cover the 24/7 legality.

If they decide instead to move existing days around to cover the legality, then I agree. Has to be at least 2.

As to the rest of your hyperbole, our opinions differ.

 

[PITbull]

I have read the language. It says nothing about the awarding of an extra day to cover the 24/7 legality.

If they decide instead to move existing days around to cover the legality, then I agree. Has to be at least 2.

As to the rest of your hyperbole, our opinions differ.

Can not schedule a "single off" day. B)

In addition, there are OTHER legalities the company must contractually comply with.

 

[jimntx]

Maybe I'm missing something or AA is getting away with murder also...however, FWIW

At AA, 'on duty' and 'on call' are not the same thing with a couple of exceptions.

The "six-day countdown toward a mandatory day off" starts with the first day you actually fly. If you sit at home on call, this does not count toward the six-day requirement.

Now our reserve system is different from yours, but say for instance, I have a line month in September and I am on reserve in October. I fly the last day of September and I am scheduled to be available for reserve assignment the first six days in October. Even if I am not used for 5 days, I still get that sixth day off because the block of "on call days" (what we call ready reserve) was preceded immediately by a day of flying.

If I don't fly the last day of September and I sit on ready reserve unused the first five days of October, they can give me a trip for the 6th and 7th (even though that was scheduled as a day off) as long as I am back at base by 12 noon on the 7th. My block of days off (let's say 3) then start 15 minutes after the end of the trip and "rolls" to that time on the 10th (which was supposed to be my next ready reserve day starting at midnight on the 9th). Trip ends at 10:45am on the 7th. Next "available day" begins at 11:00am on the 10th. They can, however, assign me a trip where I have to sign-in at 11:01am on the 10th.

R=Ready Reserve (on call)
X= Day off

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
R R R R R R X X X R R R R R

One of the things in our contract that "helps" the company is that we have 12 mandatory days off per reserve month; however, one of those days is Moveable. With 24 hours notice the company can move that day off anywhere on your schedule whether you agree or not. So, if I fly on 30Sep they will probably move my day off to one of those 1st 5 days so that I don't show a 7D (7-day legality) on my schedule.

At AA they are getting pretty good at avoiding giving f/as a 7-day legality day off. Mostly they create the reserve lines with fewer than 6 days straight "on call" so it would be impossible to occur. Something like 5 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, 4 days, off, 5 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, and off last 2 days of the month.

One of the things that I have noticed on reserve is that even schedulers sometimes confuse 30-in-7 (which is a contractual issue) restrictions and 7-day legality (which is an FAA issue).

BTW, as I understand it, the way AA does it has been fully blessed by the FAA in writing.

 

[ilg30/7]

Can not schedule a "single off" day. B)

In addition, there are OTHER legalities the company must contractually comply with.

Page 11-1


"Reserves shall gave a minimum of eleven (11)days free of duty ("reserve days off") at his or her domicile each bid month A reserve's day off will begin at 0001 domicile local time and end at 2400 domicile local time

a)These days shall be consecutive in increments of not less than two (2) days each. Eight (8) of such days shall be inviolable (INV) days and three (3) shall be non-inviolable (OFF) days"

The language speaks to the 11 contractually mandated reserve off days per month, not to an extra 12th day given to satisfy a legality.

 

[IMisstheAladdinTrays]

Maybe I'm missing something or AA is getting away with murder also...however, FWIW

At AA, 'on duty' and 'on call' are not the same thing with a couple of exceptions.

The "six-day countdown toward a mandatory day off" starts with the first day you actually fly. If you sit at home on call, this does not count toward the six-day requirement.

Now our reserve system is different from yours, but say for instance, I have a line month in September and I am on reserve in October. I fly the last day of September and I am scheduled to be available for reserve assignment the first six days in October. Even if I am not used for 5 days, I still get that sixth day off because the block of "on call days" (what we call ready reserve) was preceded immediately by a day of flying.

If I don't fly the last day of September and I sit on ready reserve unused the first five days of October, they can give me a trip for the 6th and 7th (even though that was scheduled as a day off) as long as I am back at base by 12 noon on the 7th. My block of days off (let's say 3) then start 15 minutes after the end of the trip and "rolls" to that time on the 10th (which was supposed to be my next ready reserve day starting at midnight on the 9th). Trip ends at 10:45am on the 7th. Next "available day" begins at 11:00am on the 10th. They can, however, assign me a trip where I have to sign-in at 11:01am on the 10th.

R=Ready Reserve (on call)
X= Day off

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
R R R R R R X X X R R R R R

One of the things in our contract that "helps" the company is that we have 12 mandatory days off per reserve month; however, one of those days is Moveable. With 24 hours notice the company can move that day off anywhere on your schedule whether you agree or not. So, if I fly on 30Sep they will probably move my day off to one of those 1st 5 days so that I don't show a 7D (7-day legality) on my schedule.

At AA they are getting pretty good at avoiding giving f/as a 7-day legality day off. Mostly they create the reserve lines with fewer than 6 days straight "on call" so it would be impossible to occur. Something like 5 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, 4 days, off, 5 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, and off last 2 days of the month.

One of the things that I have noticed on reserve is that even schedulers sometimes confuse 30-in-7 (which is a contractual issue) restrictions and 7-day legality (which is an FAA issue).

BTW, as I understand it, the way AA does it has been fully blessed by the FAA in writing.

What the FAA has told US is that "on call" and "on duty" are the same thing...so if it is different at AA, my bet is it will change!

Page 11-1
"Reserves shall gave a minimum of eleven (11)days free of duty ("reserve days off") at his or her domicile each bid month A reserve's day off will begin at 0001 domicile local time and end at 2400 domicile local time

a)These days shall be consecutive in increments of not less than two (2) days each. Eight (8) of such days shall be inviolable (INV) days and three (3) shall be non-inviolable (OFF) days"

The language speaks to the 11 contractually mandated reserve off days per month, not to an extra 12th day given to satisfy a legality.

My guess is that legality will win out over contractual. If they can't cover trips without causing me as a RSV's to earn an illegal day...why should that 24 hour break even be counted in with my contracual days off?

 

[ilg30/7]

Jim,

That was the distinction that traditionally existed here at US East also - the difference between "on call" and "on duty" It is that distiction the FAA has ruled invalid, and honestly, I can understand why, from the point of view of our reserves.

I do not know enough about your scheduling system to be able to comment, but it would seem at first blush to not comply with the FAA's interpretation.

 

[PITbull]

Page 11-1
"Reserves shall gave a minimum of eleven (11)days free of duty ("reserve days off") at his or her domicile each bid month A reserve's day off will begin at 0001 domicile local time and end at 2400 domicile local time

a)These days shall be consecutive in increments of not less than two (2) days each. Eight (8) of such days shall be inviolable (INV) days and three (3) shall be non-inviolable (OFF) days"

The language speaks to the 11 contractually mandated reserve off days per month, not to an extra 12th day given to satisfy a legality.

Hey Sparky,

The company is in PHX desperate to negotiate as we speak.

Twelve days off min...that's great for starters!

These are the times I wish I were on the MEC....to me, this is a big ticket item for the company...huge...like tens of millions!