Report: US Airways to terminate ALPA pension today

[mrplanes]

Cosmo:

I did not leave out anything. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in LOA 84 that conditioned our agreed to benefits on the PBGC going along with the companies 30 year plan. NOTHING. The wording is no where to be found in that letter of agreement. Period. He committed. Now he is reneging on that committment. When he agrees to what he promised the problem is solved. Your assumption is incorrect. The company may want you to believe what you just stated but LOA 84 was not, and is not conditioned on anything other than his word and our word. We kept ours. He is not keeping his. Plain and simple.

mr

 

[ONTHESTREET]

I had previously posted that I thought that the older pilots would walk if pushed on this pension issue. It appears that I was wrong.

Judging from the roasting that 1 pilot took on the webboard for stating that he would continue to fly and not vote to shut down, It does appear that the majority of the under 50 pilots are saying enough is enough also.

Of course the majority of pilots do not post, so it could just be a small percentage, but judging from what I am hearing from the guys still flying, there seems to be no other topic being discussed in the crew rooms.

I am sure that the rest of the industry (CEO's) are watching to see what U does. If the pilots cave on this you can probably expect the same to happen at all the other carriers as well.

I am not real happy about the possibility of U going ch-7 but I am speaking from a junior perspective, so I could not tell you how I would feel if I were in my 50's. Probably just the same as they feel now.

I am typing this as I wait on my corp. pax to get out of their meeting so we can hit our next stop for the day. My point is please do not thrash me for relaying what I see. I no longer have a vote on the issue, just commenting on what I see happening. And it does not look good for me having an airline to come back to.

I do however feel that if Dave is successful in his attack on the pilots it will not be long until he comes after the rest of the groups with this issue. I know, "The other pensions are not the problem" Well neither was the pilots during the last round of concessions. Who is currently the "Problem" seems to rely heavily on whoever is next on Mgmt.'s hit list. The only question is who is next, IAM?

It appears that mgmt. is caught in a feedback loop, nobody in Crystal City has a clue as to how to actually run an airline, going after the employess seems to be all they teach at Harvard business school.

Money can be made in this mess, Southwest has proven that. My question is why are we still trying to be like all the other losers, (Gazillion RJ's etc.) If I were a mgmt. type I would be looking really hard at those calf turd brown aircraft and soaking up all the intel I could! We could be a mirror image of Southwest as far as labor costs and still be losing gobs of money if we do not change the way we operate this airline!

 

[enduro]

As a mechanic for ALLEGHENY, who?, oh yeah , those wholly owned guys that are being threatend to be shut down if we don't give something for the "TEAM". It is interesting to hear that mainline guys are realizing that DAVE might not be a man of his word. If you think the pension issue will be the end of it, think again, war is on our back door. Dave said he would not ask for concessions from any one at his wholly owned company's that made less than 30k a year,but yet it is happening. It will never be enough, untill Express guys along with Mainline guys are flying cheap RJ's for little more than a manager at Mickey D's. Hold your ground if you can kids, cause it's gonna get worse, we are proving it every day at the express end.
Jim

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
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On 1/28/2003 9:53:36 AM wts54 wrote:

There seems to be some similarities to the
things they are asking for at U.S.Air and U.A.L.
Does anyone think they are trying to get both
companies lined up as far as pay,benefits,and workrules
are concerned to try a merger again?I get this feeling
thats what the long range plan might be.
----------------
[/blockquote]

I think that your idea, may be much more than just a hunch.

If you think about the "failed" merger in 2001, I believe Wolfe purposly let U tank. Fuel was not hedged, United gave their pilots everything they demanded, no one was watching SouthWest beat us up in the Florida Market. It's not so outlandish to thnk that they (United and U management) purposly orchertrated losing money to help facilitate governement approval of the merger. If wolfe couldn't do it then, he may still be trying to do it now, through the back doors.

Ingenious how they manuver.

 

[usfliboi]

Mr Planes! Im not dis agreeing with you. Im saying its not about u or i budging. You dont have a choice..... If Dave doesnt do this based on todays environment, we go under. You dont have a job or pension. You or I werent and will not be asked if its ok. Now, can you slow down, gripe. raise cain? Sure but youll be shooting yourself in the foot. In the above post i was referring to chips (your fellow co workers) NON stop rant about how each of us have to go along or we should leave and find another job! Im not comparing other plans but the facts are that Dave did say he would honor his commitment dollar for dollar in the new plan. Im not defending anything this management team does. I agree that the unions are temp being busted. In the long run, companys across the nation will have lower productivity, low morale, and a poor product simply because how the employees are being treated today ! The battles are being won today but the war on the other hand will be lost . In the end when we emerge to be a a money making company, well be back to mistrusting anything that the big guy says. You live You learn. ! The boys upstairs will learn a lesson over these tactics i assure you in the end. Its about DO UNTO OTHERS and it most certainly isnt being done here.

 

[wings396]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/28/2003 10:57:33 AM 767jetz wrote:

Here we go again...

There is reason to believe...

You guys are hanging on by a thread, and still want to dream about picking at UAL's carcass. Unbelieveable!

The industry is still in meltdown. Haven't you heard? AMR is in deep KimChi also. Why don't you try fragmenting them with all the money you have, while you're at it. "Denial is not a river in Egypt."

Right now everyone is in survival mode. Not merger mode. Not aquisition mode. Not secret corporate transaction mode.

Now please go back to fixing your own problems and leave UA out of it. Especially this pension issue. What ever happens with that will set a precident for all other major airlines.


----------------
[/blockquote]
Only time will tell, but if you really think that nothing has and is going on behind closed doors, you are the one in denial my friend. US is in a better position than UA and is MUCH closer to recovery than UA is. Tinton is not there to run your company at all. I know we don't have the cash to buy anything, but Bonner and RSA sure due. Both carriers need each other to survive and everyone knows it. Our route systems are a perfect fit, especially with PIT downsized to a shell of a hub. If these two carriers can be put together with our cost structure, it would be second to none.

 

[Cosmo]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/28/2003 10:56:52 AM mrplanes wrote:

Cosmo:

I did not leave out anything. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in LOA 84 that conditioned our agreed to benefits on the PBGC going along with the companies 30 year plan. NOTHING. The wording is no where to be found in that letter of agreement. Period. He committed. Now he is reneging on that committment. When he agrees to what he promised the problem is solved. Your assumption is incorrect. The company may want you to believe what you just stated but LOA 84 was not, and is not conditioned on anything other than his word and our word. We kept ours. He is not keeping his. Plain and simple.

mr
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[/blockquote]
mrplanes:

Since I have not seen the actual agreement, I will accept your assertion that the specific wording of the US-ALPA agreement does not condition the agreement on PBGC approval of the 30-year payment plan. However, I find it extremely difficult to believe that ALPA was not aware that the agreement was predicated on the 30-year payment plan. So we are left with one of only two possible conclusions. Either:

1.) ALPA and its financial advisor knew that the company needed to use a 30-year payment plan (which required PBGC approval) to make the pilots' pension plan numbers work in the business plan, but ALPA didn't mention that to the membership, watched quietly as the PBGC denied the proposed 30-year payment plan, and is now being intellectually dishonest about the whole process; or

2.) ALPA and its financial advisor were indeed not aware that US management's proposed pension agreement required the use of a 30-year payment plan, but they nevertheless did not recognize that the funds needed to correct the pension underfunding over the normal 7-year period were not available and did not match the numbers shown in the business plan, apparently did not question this inconsistency, and thus failed in their fiduciary responsibility to ALPA's members at US.

IMHO, neither of the above scenarios reflects well on ALPA and its financial advisor. So while your anger about the current situation is certainly understandable, I believe that at least some of that anger should be directed at your union, ALPA, and its financial advisor.

 

[mrplanes]

Cosmo:

It is interesting that both of your conclusions place blame on ALPA. However, I am not interested in blame. That is a game children play. We are only interested in getting what we have already EARNED. And what has already been COMMITTED to by Dave. How he sticks to his committment is his problem. That is why he went to Harvard. Our jobs are to fly the planes. His is to find the way to live up to his committment. I am not trying to sway your opinion or argue with you. Your opinions are your own and totally irrelevant to our situation. The statements I have made are factual and truthful. He finds a way to make us whole or we all face liquidation. Yes, we hold that power just as Bronner and the ATSB do. They are not afraid to use that power and, now, neither are we. I truly hope he understands what is at stake. We do. And we are willing to do what we must.

mr

 

[OldGuyinPA]

David "Just call me Dave", busted the Unions...and their still here. That's a pretty amazing feat. It won't be long now ...

 

[PITbull]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/28/2003 2:29:40 PM mrplanes wrote:

Cosmo:

It is interesting that both of your conclusions place blame on ALPA. However, I am not interested in blame. That is a game children play. We are only interested in getting what we have already EARNED. And what has already been COMMITTED to by Dave. How he sticks to his committment is his problem. That is why he went to Harvard. Our jobs are to fly the planes. His is to find the way to live up to his committment. I am not trying to sway your opinion or argue with you. Your opinions are your own and totally irrelevant to our situation. The statements I have made are factual and truthful. He finds a way to make us whole or we all face liquidation. Yes, we hold that power just as Bronner and the ATSB do. They are not afraid to use that power and, now, neither are we. I truly hope he understands what is at stake. We do. And we are willing to do what we must.

mr
----------------
[/blockquote]

mr,

You are convincing, and I must agree with your "stance". If Bronner and the rest can use this threat, so should the UNION. More power to you, and whatever it takes...go for it. I am a flight attendant NOT married to a pilot or even close. If you want something for us to do...ALPA needs to call it.

Look folks, all our pensions are at stake. This co. takes us one at a time, to make sure we ALL dont get together on this. PENSION IS THE MOST VALUABLE ISSUE TO ALL. Most of us do not make enough of a wage to invest in a 401K to appreciate any possible matching by the co.
And that is not the main issue. THE POINT is that this new mangement is trying to bust us down, while they can, while that window is still open. DON'T LET THEM GO THERE.


When go we reach are "threshold". Now, American and Northwest are hiring Bankruptcy attorneys; have you guys heard? Fact! Someone, somewhere needs to take a stand!

 

[PITbull]

I forgot to add, that American and Northwest are looking to hire bankruptcy attorneys. I don't believe its because they are in such dire straights, I believe its more for getting their "free pass", "fresh start" bull crap; screw the creditors, stock holders, employess, so now we can compete with USAirways and UAL, who have every advantage there is, as they have done it FIRST. Yes folks we are setting the "bar"; all the way around!

 

[usfliboi]

Mr Planes. Im not sure what power your referring to. Im assuming your referring to the threat of Mr B losing money if we go under. He is in a win win situation. By coming in with his financing, he prevented losses in the hundreds of millions that he would have lost on the leases he held with US ! Now, he has first dibs at the money if we do go under ! My friend he has nothing to lose in fact everything to gain. Lets look at the shareholders>>>>> THEY HAVE ALREADY LOST IT ALL! So at this point who has anything to lose????????/ The employees........ So bark if you want but as your fellow pilot Chip says... if youre not happy you always have the choice of moving on to another job! There are thousands of pilots out there making zero dollars who are looking at it alot differently that we are....

 

[airlineorphan]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/28/2003 5:33:20 PM PITbull wrote:


I forgot to add, that American and Northwest are looking to hire bankruptcy attorneys. I don't believe its because they are in such dire straights, I believe its more for getting their "free pass", "fresh start" bull crap; screw the creditors, stock holders, employess, so now we can compete with USAirways and UAL, who have every advantage there is, as they have done it FIRST. Yes folks we are setting the "bar"; all the way around!
----------------
[/blockquote]


PITbull is right on target here. Keep in mind that Chapter 11 BK law can allow a company to file Ch.11 even if it is turning a profit. A company needn't be on the brink of extinction to take advantage of a judge's power to abrogate contracts of employees, vendors, lessors, etc.... And even the threat of Ch.11 may be enough to mug the unions and others after what has gone down at US Airways!

Watch each others' backs! I salute the pilots for taking a stand here!

 

[copilot]

At 41 years of age, 16 years employed at CO, I along with other crew members find your Airlines pension crisis of great concern. My best wishes to its outcome.

I can only give my impression as a outsider in this enviroment. Depending on the dollar amount vested, and that amount that could be retrieved, I'd get the heck out of there while the "getten" is good.

I also belive that someone above is "right on" that this could spread across the industry with Chap.11 BK. Next thing you no a Pension Plan won't even be part of a compensation package.

 

[usfliboi]

Chip! Your source let you down on this one. Yesterday came and left. In this case however nothing happening hopefully is good news.