Release Us!

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

No more ot and field trips. You want to talk about CHAOS!!!!!

While that's a great idea - a pity it would never happen.

 

[Mr Red]

Chuck, if I was president of my local and on the negotiating committee I would.....
1. Stop talking on this forum.
2. Hold more strategy sessions with committee members on ways to force the company's hand to negotiate. One way is to have an understanding within the union negotiators that other locals will not go on field trips, work ot and will approach management that the union doesn't recognize the CS policy in the contract, and therefore will not allow members to CS.

Now, you all may think I'm CRAZY. I'm not! Right now, members are pretty much content because there's plenty of ot, field trips and more importantly CSing. Somehow the only way to engage the membership is to piss off the membership, and have them take it out on the company. Much of the finger pointing has been towards the union leadership....this strategy will turn it towards management. I would put the hurt on the membership, then go around and tell the members that management decided to pull the CS policy, No more ot and field trips. You want to talk about CHAOS!!!!!

WHAT stop posting,this is the only place where we can hear what the latest company B/S
The only stradegy we need is how and when to get rid of TWU !
This company's got money for everything but the employees
There would be no access to Billions For A/C financing if BK was in the picture.
I"m kind of getting tired of working two jobs
Keep up the FIGHT Bob theirs more of us with u then against u !!!

 

[strikeforce]

WHAT stop posting,this is the only place where we can hear what the latest company B/S
The only stradegy we need is how and when to get rid of TWU !
This company's got money for everything but the employees
There would be no access to Billions For A/C financing if BK was in the picture.
I"m kind of getting tired of working two jobs
Keep up the FIGHT Bob theirs more of us with u then against u !!!

I already know we need to get rid of the TWU....but that wasn't the question here. Read Chuck Schalk's request?

I'm not against Bob, I respectfully disagree with his current strategy with negotiations. We can all agree, to disagree!

 

[Buck]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Airlines-positioned-for-big-apf-629971177.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
"A satellite-based air traffic control system in the U.S., several years away, that could cut fuel consumption by 12 percent. Airlines and the government are fighting over who will pay for it. The current system is based on less precise World War II-era radar, which can force planes to zigzag miles out of their way.

-- Aerodynamic improvements to jets, including vertical extensions at the tip of each wing called "winglets" that prevent drag. They've been around for several years but are being deployed on a wider range of planes.

-- Carrying less weight inside the plane. American is replacing its 19,000 catering carts with models that weigh 16 pounds less. Southwest is testing seat covers made with lighter fabric. JetBlue chose thinner seats for its new A320s. Every pound removed from a plane saves 30 gallons of fuel a year.

-- Replacing older jets faster. American, which has the worst fuel economy among U.S. airlines, is replacing aging MD80s with 737s that use 35 percent less fuel per passenger.

Airlines are cutting costs in other areas as well.

Ten years ago, salaries and benefits accounted for 39 percent of industry expenses. Now they account for 28 percent. Several major airlines filed for bankruptcy and that allowed them to renegotiate labor contracts."

Do not forget about the new Flight Tablets, about 2 lbs. vs a 35 lb. Flight Bag.

 

[strikeforce]

WHAT stop posting,this is the only place where we can hear what the latest company B/S
The only stradegy we need is how and when to get rid of TWU !
This company's got money for everything but the employees
There would be no access to Billions For A/C financing if BK was in the picture.
I"m kind of getting tired of working two jobs
Keep up the FIGHT Bob theirs more of us with u then against u !!!

I don't have to come on this forum to see how the company's spending billions on things, other than employees.

If the TWU had a legitimate negotiating strategy....you wouldn't have to work two jobs.

Bob's on the committee, and although Bob claims that he's just a witness to this calamity....I disagree, and believe he's directly involved in the process. Because if he wasn't....the Intl didn't have to go through the process of replacing the other negotiators after the rejected T/A, and place Bob in the line of fire. Remember, the Intl doesn't care about the membership, so why would they go out of their way to change negotiators, especially ones that were in thier back pockets, like Gilboy????
I guess you're going to say, "so the Intl can defer blame to Bob and Co.", right?

Wrong! Bob's going to be blamed no matter what, because he's the only person the membership will see after negotiations. Chicken Little and Co. aren't going to come around and take heat from the members,"are you kidding" they're going to be on a company paid vacation with Weel, Burdette, Brundage, and Durst. So, if I was Bob, I would do whatever I can to bamboozle the Intl and company by turning the membership against the company. This way, when the company get's hurt by CHAOS, AA can turn their anger towards Little & co. and blame them. What do you think, Mr. Red?

 

[iluvaa]

all the Bob Owens haters, I have not heard all your individual words of wisdom and how to get a liivable contract! So here is the platform and tell us all what we need to do going forward and what is the plan of attack under the current conditions Hey i have a great idea, why don't you ask your presidents and get back to this board what they think we should do.

........cricket.......cricket........ I will await your responses.

I voted yes on the TA right or wrong but no one here has a right to bash Bob Owens he has been the only one to give us info (I REPEAT THE ONLY ONE) even if you dont agree with him he is fighting for all of us, even if you disagree with him you would be hard pressed to disagree with that. I do think informer is right he is going to be the fall guy in all this and I dont think we are going to get anything better than the failed TA, but to bash Bob is pure B.S he is a union man through and through to bad he doesnt have a union lol.

 

[TWU informer]

I voted yes on the TA right or wrong but no one here has a right to bash Bob Owens he has been the only one to give us info (I REPEAT THE ONLY ONE) even if you dont agree with him he is fighting for all of us, even if you disagree with him you would be hard pressed to disagree with that. I do think informer is right he is going to be the fall guy in all this and I dont think we are going to get anything better than the failed TA, but to bash Bob is pure B.S he is a union man through and through to bad he doesnt have a union lol.

Correct.

It is not Bob's fault the TWU is corrupt and sold out. And it is not his fault the TWU appointees and potential appointees outnumber him.
Most of Bob's beliefs are on target or at least acceptable within the country of freedom and democracy, that is if you take away the TWU factor.
In the end, I predict he writes a novel to us all about what really happened that he couldn't say while it was happening because of silence rules of the TWU.
Remember how much information came out after the 2003 Concessions for Jobs TWU leadership fiasco? This will be no different.

 

[737823]

For all employees and TWU members-if you are so unhappy with TWUs leadership and ability to produce a good contract for you, why don't you want to decertify the union and try taking the non-union approach? Perhaps it would be better for many and you could get the JetBlue wages everyone seems to want.

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

For all employees and TWU members-if you are so unhappy with TWUs leadership and ability to produce a good contract for you, why don't you want to decertify the union and try taking the non-union approach? Perhaps it would be better for many and you could get the JetBlue wages everyone seems to want.

Josh

We are talking about AA management here, a union is needed.
Keep in mind, a contract is not just about wages....language and work rules carry equal value.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob has stated outsourcing is not cheaper but has given no facts other than anyone who states otherwise is talking like management (mis-direction).

I think I've repeatedly stated that we dont get the information needed to determine whether or not outsourcing costs more or less. I've repeatedly stated that Arpey could not even answer that question but the companys behavior indicates that when all is factored in its not cheaper to outsource and thats why AA has continued to increase its insourcing. Such a conclusion on the existance of something we cant see, based upon its affect on things we can see isnt 100% proof but it is an accepted theory in both science, and religion.

Blames the Int'l for dictating the votes on the Committee, if that was the case it's not the Int'l, it is the very Presidents that were directly elected. They can always vote no. They are either weak or understand the gravity of the situation.

So I guess thats the reason why Don will always cite how much it costs the company when fuel goes up a penny a gallon but never cite how much the company collects in baggage fees or all the fare increases to pay for the fuel. The fact is I've been hearing from the International for eight years about how the company is going to file BK "Its not a question of if but when". Yet here we are eight years later, with talk about a $15 billion aircraft order and International officials are running around saying that our table position which only takes back a little more than half of what we gave up eight years ago is too much to ask for. The fact is this is the airline industry, the situation is always grave. The fact that you like to avoid is that revenues have increased dramatically over the last eight years, not all of those revenues were eaten up by fuel because at the same time the company has slashed the number of employees it has by thousands and cut its fleet by hundreds.

States only half the truth when referring to other's pay. Never once discussed that a contract must be viewed as a whole and not as stand alone parts. Everyone he quotes as getting paid higher have major outsourcing of overhaul.

Stated that the TWU started the B-Scale. Not true. Read below about the APA under the direction of AMFA counsel Seham.
[/b]

TWU started it for mechanics. More should be expected of an AFL-CIO affilated Union than a small independant union like the APA, isnt that so?
If you want to get technical the first B-Scale I read of was by Julius Ceasar but the TWU was the first to voluntarily bring it to Aircraft Mechanics.

There is a ton more. Ten plus years of BS its hard to figure out the web of half-truths that make up Mr. Owens.

Overspeed Joined: 28-June 11

You've been reading my stuff for 10 years yet you only decided to jump in to the debates a week ago? Somehow I get the feeling that you've posted before but under some other discredited alias.

That claim of "half truths" seems to always come from people who do it more than anyone. So far you havent produced one example.

So as far as the contract who other than AA does not have major outsourcing of OH and since there isnt anyone else then how are we supposed to make a comparasion? The fact is that USAIR, UAL and Delta, the three legacy carriers that filed BK and do have major outsourcing of OH are and have been accepted comparators while other carriers like SWA for some reason were excluded. When I first got to negotiations and brought up SWA I was given that same tired line of "We cant compare to SWA because they dont do OH", well neither do USAIR, UAL or Delta. So tell me if we are the only ones that do OH why should we just limit comparing ourselves to carriers that went BK? Why shouldnt we pick the position thats most favorable to us and let the company make their arguement? Do you think for one moment that they wont hesitate to Cherry Pick? They do it all the time. Like when they offered what Bobby Gless said was an "industry leading proposal" that "the SWA guys would have killed for" , Retiree Medical. The company claimed it was conceptually similar to plans in place at Southwest and Continental, where workers had been getting twelve days of sick time for most if not all their careers, not 10, 12 for one year and 5 for the last eight years, and those carriers would only charge 11 or 12 hours per month for coveraghe locked in whereas ours was 20 hours per month with the ability to raise that in two years. *

When you say whole package are you referring to the way the company throws it out there? You know how AA spends more on labor than other carriers. Are you saying that despite the fact that we do it in house that we should strive to have the same total labor costs as competitors who pay more to outside vendors to do that labor? Because we both know thats unreasonable. You come here and trash SWA for allowing a limited amount of outsourced work to be outsouced overseas which they did in exchange for bringing more work in house, work they never had before, that get done right along side USAIR planes, yet you leave out the fact that the TWU has not put any limitations on where AA can send their outsourced work. Is that an omision by design or a half truth? Or are you saying that we as individual workers should sell our labor at a discount so AA can employ more workers (and the TWU can have more dues payers)?

Whats really amusing is that people such as yourself come here and try to claim the moral high ground, make accusations of half tuths while at the same time identifying yourself under an alias, in other words concealing the tuth, making anything you post suspect, and employing the very same tactics you accuse me of such as putting forth information that supports your position and leaving it up to your opponent to produce counter information. When your counter information collapses you make accusations of "half truths". In other words you employ the tactics of FOX NEWS.

Now anyone has the right to come here and use an alias but there is more than a tinge of hypocrisy when charges of half truths are hurled from someone hiding behind one.

Your type comes here and claims that because I'm an elected officer that I should not speak unless its cleared by a Committee that exists at the sole discretion of the TWU International and that every statement I make should be deviod of personal opinion. Well maybe thats your view, your opinion on how an elected official should act, but in my opinion thats not how one should act, that there should be an open exchange of information, opinions and an engagement with the members who can give their input. You would likely say that should take place at Union Meetings, and while some information and discussions should be shielded from management, who hear about it anyway from their rats, the fact is that Union meetings are sparsely attended, we have to find different ways to engage the members, unless of course you feel that the way we've done it for the last 30 years has produced adequate results. I dont. I feel that the status quo of keeping the members in the dark and allowing ourselves to be limited to expessing ourselves in a forum controlled by the International has produced inadequate results and we need to do things differently if we want different results. In the end the members will decide whether they want me to do as I've done or not, in fact they dont have to wait because we put recall in our Bylaws, something the International blocked as far as Recall for International Officers at the last Convention. But I suppose you feel I should just accept that as well and not discuss it either.

* Two 25 year employees, one at AA the other at SWA or CAL
SAW/CAL 12 days per year after 25 years they were afforded 300 sick days to use or bank
AA employee
-10 days per year from 1986 to 2001 =150 days
-2002 12 days
-2003 -2011 5 days per year=40 days
150+12+40=202 daysSo over a 25 year span the AA employee was afforded 98 days, or 784 hours lessof sick time to use or bank,
AA admitted that mechanics averge 5.1 days per year sick. So over 25 years thats 127.5 days.
SWA/CAL 300days-127.5 average usage=172.5 days or 1380 hrs, he would have enough sick time to buy between 115 and 125 Months of coverage (12 hrs /month or 11hrs/month)
AA 202days -127.5= 74.5days or 596 hrs, he would have enough sick time to buy 29.8 months of coverage providing AA did not decide at its sole discretion to increase the niumber of hours per month.

So how is the AA plan industry leading? After 25 years and average usage our peers at SWA and CAL would have enough sick time in the bank to buy 10 years of coverage while the mechanic at AA would only have enough to buy less than two and a half.

If you were 49 and the TA passed at AA, even if you had perfect attendance the most you could bank up to the failed TA was 1200hrs, or 60 months of coverage. If you continued to have perfect attendance to 55 you would only be able to buy 16 more months of coverage at the current proposed rate (which can go up without being negotiated after the amendable date). So in other words the "retire at 55 option"is out the window as well, there is no way you could accumulate enough sick time to buy the coverage till normal retirement age. You would have to buy it out of pocket.Thats with perfect attendance for your entire career. In the meantime peers at SWA and CAL may not have the 55 option but they could have had normal usage, even above average, and more than enough coverage to retire at 60. We would have to have perfect attendance for the majority of our careers and no serious injuries or illneses, our peers however have rapid reaccrual under those circumstances .

 

[Bob Owens]

all the Bob Owens haters, I have not heard all your individual words of wisdom and how to get a liivable contract! So here is the platform and tell us all what we need to do going forward and what is the plan of attack under the current conditions Hey i have a great idea, why don't you ask your presidents and get back to this board what they think we should do.

........cricket.......cricket........ I will await your responses.

I think the plan is kiss butt from behind an alias, help push through concessionary deals, then jump either into management or the International, whichever they get offered.

 

[Bob Owens]

I wouldn't want to ask my president.....he's one that got booted off the committee and Chicken Little's stooge. I'm talking about Gilboy!

Who said he was booted? Because that didnt happen.

 

[strikeforce]

Who said he was booted? Because that didnt happen.

Ohhhhhh! So, what is he, Little's stool pigeon or stooge, or are you the union's defacto stooge put in place so you can take the heat off of Gilboy and co.????????? I'm going to guess the latter. I feel for you Bob!! Get out while you can!!! I'm Just Saying!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Ohhhhhh! So, what is he, Little's stool pigeon or stooge, or are you the union's defacto stooge put in place so you can take the heat off of Gilboy and co.????????? I'm going to guess the latter. I feel for you Bob!! Get out while you can!!! I'm Just Saying!!!

I'm just saying he was not booted. It was his choice not to be there.

 

[Buck]

For all employees and TWU members-if you are so unhappy with TWUs leadership and ability to produce a good contract for you, why don't you want to decertify the union and try taking the non-union approach? Perhaps it would be better for many and you could get the JetBlue wages everyone seems to want.

Josh

There is a rift between the TULE membership. The loyal TWU and those who want a descent contract. It would be amazing if the votes were published by skill, but that is another story.