Recording Secretary

[Bob Owens]

Oh I was talking about the house the land and the fish not just the fish
I know your cost of living could not be that high

Hey if you run across that website again that has the cost of living figures on it please post it again, I wouldn't mind checking that out for myself.

I know the guys in LA complain about high cost of living as well, I wouldn't mind checking on their alleged <_< cost of living.

Thanks for the Info. Bob

If you would need a 100% increase in pay then you are saying the cost of living in NY is twice as high as in Tulsa, I knew that there was a difference but I did not know that it was that dramatic, are you sure about that or are you just pulling my leg that seems kind of high to me.


The calculator was made by bank. I did not make it. If I can find the link again I'll post it.I live around 45 miles from JFK , my house is 1800 sq/ft on a 120' x 125' lot. Taxes are around $6200/year and it would go on the market for somewhere in the mid $300s. I'll admit that the number seemed high to me too since other things like food, appliances, clothing would not be that much more here than there.

I lived in Hawaii on Oahu for 3 years and people use to always say that Hawaii cost of living was high but it really wasn't, the houses may have been higher I don't know as I lived in the Army barracks when I was there but everything else was quite reasonable.

I have relatives in Hawaii living on a military pension. They say that while it appears high they save money because the seasons are relatively the same-warm.

Found it http://www.bankrate.com/brm/movecalc.asp

From the calculator;

A $62000 income in Tulsa OK is equivalent to a $144733 income in New York (Manhattan) NY

You will need an increase of 133% to maintain your standard of living.

 

[Buck]

Careful there Raptor.........Bobby might just want to meet you "face to face" and tell you what he really thinks of you!!!!!


And Buck, have you met face to face with Raptor, or is it easier to voice your opinion of someone (you work with everyday) on the computer??????

I have not met you face to face either, or have I?

Either one of you can visit Hangar 4A any time you desire.

If I work with this person everyday it does not matter. If he has the urge he can speak to me about any issue he wishes, right?

 

[Raptor]

If you would need a 100% increase in pay then you are saying the cost of living in NY is twice as high as in Tulsa, I knew that there was a difference but I did not know that it was that dramatic, are you sure about that or are you just pulling my leg that seems kind of high to me.


The calculator was made by bank. I did not make it. If I can find the link again I'll post it.I live around 45 miles from JFK , my house is 1800 sq/ft on a 120' x 125' lot. Taxes are around $6200/year and it would go on the market for somewhere in the mid $300s. I'll admit that the number seemed high to me too since other things like food, appliances, clothing would not be that much more here than there.

I lived in Hawaii on Oahu for 3 years and people use to always say that Hawaii cost of living was high but it really wasn't, the houses may have been higher I don't know as I lived in the Army barracks when I was there but everything else was quite reasonable.

I have relatives in Hawaii living on a military pension. They say that while it appears high they save money because the seasons are relatively the same-warm.

Found it http://www.bankrate.com/brm/movecalc.asp

From the calculator;

A $62000 income in Tulsa OK is equivalent to a $144733 income in New York (Manhattan) NY

You will need an increase of 133% to maintain your standard of living.

The calculator was made by bank. I did not make it. If I can find the link again I'll post it.I live around 45 miles from JFK , my house is 1800 sq/ft on a 120' x 125' lot. Taxes are around $6200/year and it would go on the market for somewhere in the mid $300s. I'll admit that the number seemed high to me too since other things like food, appliances, clothing would not be that much more here than there.

That is high I don't know how one could afford a 300,000 dollar house on what we make at AA, I live in a 1750 sq/ft house on a 140’x140’ lot. Taxes are around $1200/year and it would go on the market for about $100,000 I only paid 59,000 for it 14 years ago thought, most houses of this size do not go for that high in Tulsa I live in a Independent school district not Tulsa public so the house's are quite a bit higher in my area of town, up to 10,000 more than the rest of Tulsa.
I thought that maybe it was only the housing that was high that is the case in many area’s your Gas is quite a bit higher than ours thought.

I have relatives in Hawaii living on a military pension. They say that while it appears high they save money because the seasons are relatively the same-warm.

Found it http://www.bankrate.com/brm/movecalc.asp

Thanks for the Calculator I will check it out.

From the calculator;

A $62000 income in Tulsa OK is equivalent to a $144733 income in New York (Manhattan) NY

You will need an increase of 133% to maintain your standard of living.

Ouch Do you really like living there that much with your seniority I would think you could live anywhere and work at AA if you wanted to, if the cost of living is that high there it sounds like Aviation is not the ideal job for that area of the country there must be many higher paying jobs there to support that high of a cost of living.

 

[Raptor]

Bob I checked out that calculator that is pretty cool, I know nothing about NY so I don't know what is close to what but I did see some area's in NY that the cost of living was only 6% higher than here.
you did say that you do not live in Manhatten so I am assuming your cost of living is not quite the 133% higher like in Manhatten.

It appears that the cost of living in LA is 60% higher than here.
I guess in many area's if you don't buy a house and property the cost of living is not that much different than here.

 

[Bob Owens]

That is high I don't know how one could afford a 300,000 dollar house on what we make at AA, I live in a 1750 sq/ft house on a 140’x140’ lot. Taxes are around $1200/year and it would go on the market for about $100,000 I only paid 59,000 for it 14 years ago thought, most houses of this size do not go for that high in Tulsa I live in a Independent school district not Tulsa public so the house's are quite a bit higher in my area of town, up to 10,000 more than the rest of Tulsa.
I thought that maybe it was only the housing that was high that is the case in many area’s your Gas is quite a bit higher than ours thought.

Ouch Do you really like living there that much with your seniority I would think you could live anywhere and work at AA if you wanted to, if the cost of living is that high there it sounds like Aviation is not the ideal job for that area of the country there must be many higher paying jobs there to support that high of a cost of living.

Look I dont expect to live a Tulsa lifestyle. I was satisfied with what we had. I dont need to be rich but I would like to live decently off 40. Here in new york you need at least $80,000. I live here because this is where I was born and where my family is. They are happy here, so if I have to leave this industry in order to stay here thats the way it will be, but not without a fight. I have over 25 years invested in this career.

The problem is that just as a house is worth a lot more so are landing rights, terminal space and so should labor.

I read where the NY area alone accounts for nearly 20% of AA revenues. In other words they make a lot of money here. Quite frankly it is the TWUs manipulation Tulsa that that keeps our wages down. I have no problem with you guys making a huge income for Tulsa just dont force us to live on the Tulsa equivelent of $30,000 a year.

We were always struggling, we could deal with that, these concessions are putting us under.



I think that if we had a union in place that would share such information that perhaps there would not be as much resentment as there is between the line and overhaul. However the TWU likes it just the way it is.

 

[Raptor]

Look I dont expect to live a Tulsa lifestyle. I was satisfied with what we had. I dont need to be rich but I would like to live decently off 40. Here in new york you need at least $80,000. I live here because this is where I was born and where my family is. They are happy here, so if I have to leave this industry in order to stay here thats the way it will be, but not without a fight. I have over 25 years invested in this career.

The problem is that just as a house is worth a lot more so are landing rights, terminal space and so should labor.

I read where the NY area alone accounts for nearly 20% of AA revenues. In other words they make a lot of money here. Quite frankly it is the TWUs manipulation Tulsa that that keeps our wages down. I have no problem with you guys making a huge income for Tulsa just dont force us to live on the Tulsa equivelent of $30,000 a year.

We were always struggling, we could deal with that, these concessions are putting us under.



I think that if we had a union in place that would share such information that perhaps there would not be as much resentment as there is between the line and overhaul. However the TWU likes it just the way it is.

I think it is more AA's manipulation of Tulsa than the TWU the TWU wants everyone to make as much money as possible all Unions want that but AA knows that the majority vote is in Tulsa so they cator to that and as you say manipulate the Tulsa members including officers to vote for contracts that are not that great for other area's of the country but are not too bad for Tulsa, I am not sure that another Union would change that, when you are dealing with an area that has a low cost of living AA has the majority right where they want them, that is why I think that AA will never leave Tulsa cause they know this, AA knows that they can pay all AA employee's less because of the cost of living in Tulsa, as long as the Tulsa employee's keep voting for lower wage contracts nothing will change, and I will tell you Bob I am not so sure that if it came to more money or a strike that the Majority in Tulsa would go on strike and if they did I think they would probably only last about a week at best, The reason I say this is because of what many people I have talked to have said to me, even though our cost of living is much lower people manage to spend that extra money on toys that have to be paid for like New Motorcyles, boats, cars, Airplanes etc. many have told me that they could not afford to go on strike, No matter what Union you have you can not get tough with your company unless the members are willing to back you up. :unsure:
That is why I say even if AMFA gets in at AA I am not so sure there will be that big of a change unless the employee's are willing to change as well.

I am all for changing to AMFA cause it can't be any worse than it is but I am not getting my hopes up that it will be a whole lot better either.

 

[Bob Owens]

I think it is more AA's manipulation of Tulsa than the TWU the TWU wants everyone to make as much money as possible all Unions want that but AA knows that the majority vote is in Tulsa so they cator to that and as you say manipulate the Tulsa members including officers to vote for contracts that are not that great for other area's of the country but are not too bad for Tulsa, I am not sure that another Union would change that, when you are dealing with an area that has a low cost of living AA has the majority right where they want them, that is why I think that AA will never leave Tulsa cause they know this, AA knows that they can pay all AA employee's less because of the cost of living in Tulsa, as long as the Tulsa employee's keep voting for lower wage contracts nothing will change, and I will tell you Bob I am not so sure that if it came to more money or a strike that the Majority in Tulsa would go on strike and if they did I think they would probably only last about a week at best, The reason I say this is because of what many people I have talked to have said to me, even though our cost of living is much lower people manage to spend that extra money on toys that have to be paid for like New Motorcyles, boats, cars, Airplanes etc. many have told me that they could not afford to go on strike, No matter what Union you have you can not get tough with your company unless the members are willing to back you up. :unsure:
That is why I say even if AMFA gets in at AA I am not so sure there will be that big of a change unless the employee's are willing to change as well.

I am all for changing to AMFA cause it can't be any worse than it is but I am not getting my hopes up that it will be a whole lot better either.

Well I think that the TWU wants to make as much money as possible, and if that means selling its members cheap so be it. Thats at least what their actions for the last twenty years have proven.

While I would agree that simply voting in AMFA will not result in an immediate permanent radical change in attitudes in Tulsa or most likely anywhere else I do think that it would over the long term result in improvements. I say this because under the TWU our profession has deteriorated and the TWU has actively promoted this deterioration because of their indifferent attitude towards the profession. They could care less about aircraft mechanics, as long as dues are paid to the TWU they dont care who gets the work. This point is illustrated clearly in our contract.This attitude runs contrary to our interests because if we lose the work we can not transfer our seniority to some of these other classifications, and those where we could carry our seniority pay less. For example lets say we have 500 TWU members in the city of Oz.250 are mechanics and 250 are fleet service clerks. The company decides they no longer want mechanics in Oz so they lay off the 250 mechanics and hire 250 fleet service clerks. The TWU could care less because they still have 500 members there. Liscenced mechanics would most likely seek jobs as mechanics, not as TWU members.

The TWU and the AFL-CIO may try to counter this claim of indifference citing their recent interest in fighting FAR 145. The fact is that FAR 145 was modified over 10 years ago and they have only decided to fight it recently due to the rapid exodus of mechanics from AFL-CIO unions. And even if their concern was real, it still does not prove that they are doing this for the profession or the individuals who have chosen the vocation of an A&P. Once again,thier concern is the loss of TWU jobs, not neccisarily the loss of TWU A&P mechanics. The TWUs creation of SRP and OSMs, new titles that do work that was previously majority staffed by A&Ps, is a clear example of the TWUs indifference to the profession. According to them, the creation of these subclasses of lower paid workers doing what A&Ps used to do is good because they are TWU members. The fact that it effectively reduced options and demand for A&Ps, something that should be of concern for A&Ps meant nothing to the TWU.This is further reinforced by the fact that the TWU totally ignores FAR 66, which would hurt the profession but may not threaten the TWU with member losses, they would just have more non-A&P members. In fact the OSM program appears to be a pilot program for putting FAR 66 into effect.

The fact is that the TWU has never represented "mechanics" interests. They may have represented TWU members who were mechanics but never argued in a way that promotes our craft.

 

[Raptor]

Well I think that the TWU wants to make as much money as possible, and if that means selling its members cheap so be it. Thats at least what their actions for the last twenty years have proven.

While I would agree that simply voting in AMFA will not result in an immediate permanent radical change in attitudes in Tulsa or most likely anywhere else I do think that it would over the long term result in improvements. I say this because under the TWU our profession has deteriorated and the TWU has actively promoted this deterioration because of their indifferent attitude towards the profession. They could care less about aircraft mechanics, as long as dues are paid to the TWU they dont care who gets the work. This point is illustrated clearly in our contract.This attitude runs contrary to our interests because if we lose the work we can not transfer our seniority to some of these other classifications, and those where we could carry our seniority pay less. For example lets say we have 500 TWU members in the city of Oz.250 are mechanics and 250 are fleet service clerks. The company decides they no longer want mechanics in Oz so they lay off the 250 mechanics and hire 250 fleet service clerks. The TWU could care less because they still have 500 members there. Liscenced mechanics would most likely seek jobs as mechanics, not as TWU members.

The TWU and the AFL-CIO may try to counter this claim of indifference citing their recent interest in fighting FAR 145. The fact is that FAR 145 was modified over 10 years ago and they have only decided to fight it recently due to the rapid exodus of mechanics from AFL-CIO unions. And even if their concern was real, it still does not prove that they are doing this for the profession or the individuals who have chosen the vocation of an A&P. Once again,thier concern is the loss of TWU jobs, not neccisarily the loss of TWU A&P mechanics. The TWUs creation of SRP and OSMs, new titles that do work that was previously majority staffed by A&Ps, is a clear example of the TWUs indifference to the profession. According to them, the creation of these subclasses of lower paid workers doing what A&Ps used to do is good because they are TWU members. The fact that it effectively reduced options and demand for A&Ps, something that should be of concern for A&Ps meant nothing to the TWU.This is further reinforced by the fact that the TWU totally ignores FAR 66, which would hurt the profession but may not threaten the TWU with member losses, they would just have more non-A&P members. In fact the OSM program appears to be a pilot program for putting FAR 66 into effect.

The fact is that the TWU has never represented "mechanics" interests. They may have represented TWU members who were mechanics but never argued in a way that promotes our craft.

I agree with everything in your post that is why I worked so hard to get AMFA in at AA and I would still like to see it happen some day, cause I do think that AMFA is better for Aircraft Mechanics, and if it is going to happen then I am sure that it will happen without me helping as an Organizer, After all AMFA has some good men working to get them in at AA like you and Chuck and Ken, and Don etc. of course there are some real losers dragging down the drive like Dave but hey maybe Don can manage to keep him quiet on the next drive.

 

[Checking it Out]

Looks like Amfa had little results in having Hartman get in! Since Mary had the most votes out of everyone. It is obvious the membership made the wise choice.

Amfa failed!

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

RAPTOR, no offense, but have you ever non-reved anywhere? You do work for an airline you know? Maybe you should use some of those flight benefits, and fly around the country and find out for yourself what the cost of living is like in NYC,SFO,LAX,SAN,DEN,BOS,WASH.DC,etc.