Real Hope & Change - Ron Paul 2012

[SparrowHawk]

Indeed Imagine If???? And we live in a Fantasy? Think it couldn't happen? Think harder. Watch, Listen to these ladies. We can win! With people like this working for him We can frree the USA from the tyranny of a bloated Federal Government.



No fantasy folks, he is the real deal and it's starting to show in the polls. Liberty and Freedom are popular.

Ron Paul leapfrogs into second place in two key early states, Perry fifth

He may be the victim of a virtual media blackout — and moderators largely ignored him in last weekend’s foreign policy debate — but Ron Paul is on the rise.

Two polls released this week show the Texas congressman surging to second in Iowa and New Hampshire.

The Bloomberg poll of likely Iowa caucus-goers was taken Nov. 10-13, and it puts the Lake Jackson Republican one percentage point behind leader Herman Cain, with 19 percent of the vote to Cain’s 20 percent. The top four candidates in Iowa actually find themselves in a statistical dead heat, all falling within the four-point margin of error. After Cain and Paul come Mitt Romney (18 percent support) and Newt Gingrich (17 percent).

MORE HERE

 

[777 fixer]

Is it a fantasy?

To live free under the COTUS?

Hos our foreign policy made a better world? Depends who you ask

Has our National Debt increased or decreased as a result of our empire building?



A fantasy? I think Dr Paul is spot on in his assessment is spot on.

If you think that speech helps it does not. He refers to oppresive Middle Eastern regimes, what in the heck does he think the governemnt in Iran is? Here's hint, it's an oppresive Middle Eastern regime run by thugs. If he think that we can get into bed with them and there not be negative consequences down the road he really does live in a fantasy world.

 

[SparrowHawk]

If you think that speech helps it does not. He refers to oppresive Middle Eastern regimes, what in the heck does he think the governemnt in Iran is? Here's hint, it's an oppresive Middle Eastern regime run by thugs. If he think that we can get into bed with them and there not be negative consequences down the road he really does live in a fantasy world.

You know there is an old saying that I used to hear in PHL all the time and that is "Money talks and BS walks". I know of no culture where that isn't true. Heck there were companies here in the US that did business with the Germans during WWII.

Point is when you put money on the table, religion & politics tend to get overlooked to varying degrees. See China as a glaring example. Are we super buddy buddy with China? Are we "in bed" with them? NO! We are merely trading partners, nothing more then business rivals on the world stage. Iran with some good diplomacy could be nothing more then a trading partner. If Iran is up to it's eyeballs in debt to the US after we start trading with them, we can then convince them to leave Israel alone.

I agree that this approach is completely different then what has been used the last hundred years and is somewhat tough to embrace as it flys in the face of all we see and read. Iran is merely the Hitler Du Jour. Before it was Libya, before that is was the Taliban, before that is was Hussein. North Korea will be next IMO, after that perhaps Assad of Syria. The Military Industrial Complex requires conflict and Eisenhower warned us of this 50+ years ago. It is no surprise that a century of Central Banks pumping out fiat currency has lead to a century of wars.

 

[Ms Tree]

As I recall Hitler and Stalin had an agreement. That was until Hitler decided that the agreement had outlasted its usefulness. You can try and cosy up to Iran all you want. Theirs is an ideological war. They will usewhat ever is in their interest till they decide not to. The current theocracy will not ignore Israel. To think that they will is ignorant. The only way to beat them is to starve them out. The only way that will happen is get away from fossil fuels. The only way that will happen is for Americans to suck it up and get.out of they mega mansions,.get out of their gas guzzlers and make some sacrifices. Unfortunately that seems to be a dirty word in this country.

 

[777 fixer]

Trying to compare Iran and China is flawed. They are two very different countries.

So we will just be a trading partner with Iran? If it were only that simple. I'll use Syria for example. We had to pull out our ambassador due to concerns about his safety. Why, becasue he had made remarks supporting the opposition and was attacked by pro-government supporters. We do not sell Syria arms and trade with them is rather minimal compared to most countries in that region. Yet we still had to pull our guy out. If the ambassador had said nothing and conducted business as if nothing was happening that probably would have irked the opposition and they might have been the ones attacking him instead.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Trying to compare Iran and China is flawed. They are two very different countries.

So we will just be a trading partner with Iran? If it were only that simple. I'll use Syria for example. We had to pull out our ambassador due to concerns about his safety. Why, becasue he had made remarks supporting the opposition and was attacked by pro-government supporters. We do not sell Syria arms and trade with them is rather
minimal compared to most countries in that region. Yet we still had to pull our guy out. If the ambassador had said nothing and conducted business as if nothing was happening that probably would have irked the opposition and they might have been the ones attacking him instead.

It's a tight rope walk to be sure but that's what diplomacy is. I think given the loss of life and liberty by being at war (Either hot or cold) for nearly 100 years suggests that perhaps we give Ron Paul's way a try. What I think he sometimes fails to realize is that we are going to have to engage those who despise us and seek to harm us in ways that will involve covert and overt military actions.

 

[777 fixer]

As I have already said Ron Paul lives in a fantasy world if he thinks we can get into bed with a regime like Iran and not have negative consequesnces someday. Even trading with them would be prooping them up. Trade would give the Imam's there money and power that would enable them to tighten their grip even further.

 

[SparrowHawk]

As I have already said Ron Paul lives in a fantasy world if he thinks we can get into bed with a regime like Iran and not have negative consequesnces someday. Even trading with them would be prooping them up. Trade would give the Imam's there money and power that would enable them to tighten their grip even further.

Well I part company with the current foreign policy of empire building and essentially dictating to countries how they should govern. Iran, like it or don't is a sovereign nation and sanctions and the like are an act of war.

If you recall how well the sanctions placed on Japan worked in the late 30's and 40's? Pearl Harbor ring a bell? I agree that propping up regimes is a dangerous path. Look how it turned out with Castro and the Sandinista's? The current meddling is neither affordable nor does it provide positive outcomes. Recent history has taught us this about a bajillion times yet we fail to learn the lessons.

Trade with Iran would indeed give Iran money and if you get it into the hands of the people as consumer goods then you help the opposition gain power and possibly overthrow the thugs to which you accurately refer to in your post. Preemptive wars aren't the answer either as we see how well that's working in Iraq.

There are no easy answers to be sure. I'm open to Dr Paul's approach not so much because deep down I think it will work, more like I know what we're doing isn't working to the benefit of the average American. We also know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. So for me at least I'm willing to elect Ron Paul due to his domestic policies and take a small risk on the foreign policy side.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Here is a concrete example of why we need to just stay of other people business

Militia warning as Libyan PM forms government

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - A commander of Libyan former rebels has warned that his men could overthrow the incoming government if it fails to meet their demands for representation.

MORE HERE

 

[delldude]

As I have already said Ron Paul lives in a fantasy world if he thinks we can get into bed with a regime like Iran and not have negative consequesnces someday. Even trading with them would be prooping them up. Trade would give the Imam's there money and power that would enable them to tighten their grip even further.

So Obama can do the same and its ok by you.......

 

[777 fixer]

If you recall how well the sanctions placed on Japan worked in the late 30's and 40's? Pearl Harbor ring a bell?

Are you going to try and make the argument that we should have continued selling Japan oil and scrap metal to help fuel their war machine? If that's the case then what would that have made us? War profiteer comes to mind. Cutting off japan was the morally correct thing to do. No way around that.

 

[777 fixer]

So Obama can do the same and its ok by you.......

That response tells me you agree with me but don't want to admit it.

 

[777 fixer]

Trade with Iran would indeed give Iran money and if you get it into the hands of the people as consumer goods then you help the opposition gain power and possibly overthrow the thugs to which you accurately refer to in your post.

Assuming they get to share in the bounty. Oppresive regimes have this nasty habit of being greedy and not sharing with the people. And would not helping the oppostion overthrow the government be interferring with that countries internal affairs?

 

[SparrowHawk]

Assuming they get to share in the bounty. Oppresive regimes have this nasty habit of being greedy and not sharing with the people. And would not helping the oppostion overthrow the government be interferring with that countries internal affairs?

Well it would be a more benign "Help"! One that passes Constitutional muster. There is an actual middle class in Iran that is very secular in nature and has challenged the theocracy in elections and gotten into the 40% range vote wise so having them as a trading partner might just be enough for a peaceful transition via elections although that could be wishful thinking on my part.

I can't help but wonder what Cuba would look like today had we not isolated Castro and kept the door open to trade.

 

[SparrowHawk]

The title of this photo should be "So you want to be President"! An aging warrior in the battle for Liberty alone with only his thoughts to keep him companu! A very touching photo

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A man who runs on his record not away from it. This man not only talks a good game he lives what he believes and that's what integrity is. The way you conduct yourself when no one is watching.

Ron Paul IMO is Barack Obama's worst nightmare in that if Ron captures the nomination the Obama character assassination machine will be unable to lay a glove on him. Ron Paul will to paraphrase Ali's words, "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, Obama gonna find no dirt on me".

Face it Freedom is Popular!

If you like small government you need to work hard at having a strong national defense that is not so militant. Personal liberty is the purpose of government, to protect liberty - not to run your personal life, not to run the economy, and not to pretend that we can tell the world how they ought to live.
Ron Paul