Question

[Ken MacTiernan]

Received my latest issue of TWU Express. On the inside cover it lists a lot of the people inside the twu. My question is this.

Steve Luis use to be the President of Local 514 but was not re-elected. The membership spoke by electing a FSC President. I guess old Steve peddling the failed t/a showed his true alliegance was to the international and not the membership.

Steve Luis doesn't have any elected position in Local 514.

So WHY is he listed as an International VP for the twu?

I did not get a ballot to vote for him. Did you?

twu = good old boy system of "democracy".

AMP = True Democracy.

Sign an AMP Authorization Card and remove the cancer from our craft.

hss and other twu tools: Love to read your spin on this.

 

[strikeforce]

Received my latest issue of TWU Express. On the inside cover it lists a lot of the people inside the twu. My question is this.

Steve Luis use to be the President of Local 514 but was not re-elected. The membership spoke by electing a FSC President. I guess old Steve peddling the failed t/a showed his true alliegance was to the international and not the membership.

Steve Luis doesn't have any elected position in Local 514.

So WHY is he listed as an International VP for the twu?

I did not get a ballot to vote for him. Did you?

twu = good old boy system of "democracy".

AMP = True Democracy.

Sign an AMP Authorization Card and remove the cancer from our craft.

hss and other twu tools: Love to read your spin on this.

Ken,

In my OPINION, and from my observations from conversations on the floor regarding AMP. No one is disputing the fact that AMP will provide democratic ways of holding elections, and provide transparencies during negotiations, and use outside agencies to facilitate negotiations on behalf of the membership for the best interest of the membership. The cancer you mention are our own people within the TWU structure today, that will seek and ultimately hold elected positions within AMP, and corrupt AMP.

Unless WE get OTHER members to participate and seek elected positions within AMP, WE will see the same CLOWNS that are currently holding appointed TWU positions, in AMP. Therefore, most AMT's believe NOTHING will change between what you see today with the TWU, and what you will get with AMP. I believe that line of thinking is prohibiting AMP's movement forward in getting the necessary amount of cards signed for elections.

AMP has to change the culture of the union, and therefore change the way WE think of our craft as professional people instead of just another group within the industrial organization. I'm not sure why the pilots left and formed their own organization, but I'll bet they were in the same line of thinking. Now, they compare themselves to Doctors, Lawyers and Accountants, i.e. "professionals", and that line of thinking enhances their ability to negotiate in UNITY!

Now, you may think that hasn't helped the pilots, but they know how to play AA and they wait for the opportune time to capitalize on an issue that is vital to AA's future....like the new aircraft order. You will see lots of movement for the pilots because AA has to negotiate pay rates for the 777-300, 787 and Airbus before AA can use them. That provides the pilots with tremendous leverage over AA. Leverage in negotiations is king. AA has tremendous leverage over the AMT's because of the MRO issue and how cheap other MRO's pay their employees. What the union fails to capitalize on is the fact that MRO's charge airlines just as much, if not more, than AA supposedly pays for wages and benefits for the AMT's. The difference may just be the "Time" it takes MRO's to complete a heavy check as compared to Tulsa. Why do you think AA has "Continuous Improvement" and "Lean", it's because they want to keep in-house maint. but they want more productivity....meaning less time to do it. Time is money!


Carmen

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken,

In my OPINION, and from my observations from conversations on the floor regarding AMP. No one is disputing the fact that AMP will provide democratic ways of holding elections, and provide transparencies during negotiations, and use outside agencies to facilitate negotiations on behalf of the membership for the best interest of the membership. The cancer you mention are our own people within the TWU structure today, that will seek and ultimately hold elected positions within AMP, and corrupt AMP.

Unless WE get OTHER members to participate and seek elected positions within AMP, WE will see the same CLOWNS that are currently holding appointed TWU positions, in AMP. Therefore, most AMT's believe NOTHING will change between what you see today with the TWU, and what you will get with AMP. I believe that line of thinking is prohibiting AMP's movement forward in getting the necessary amount of cards signed for elections.

Carmen

Carmen,

People who get elected under AMP thinking that the twu way is still the way things will operate are in for a bitter surprise. Yes, there will be "clowns" under any organization that get elected but I believe that under the twu these "clowns" thrive because the membership doesn't feel that there is any leadership from the twu int. because the int. rewards these "clowns".

I know for a fact that the "change from within" slogan was nothing more than an empty slogan. I also know for a fact that once AMP gets certified quality UNION people will run for office and everything will change.

The simple question remains to be asked by everyone in our craft & class... do you want to continue under the twu's guidance? This is the last chance for a better future for our profession at AA. We either remove the twu and utilize the AMP Constitution FOR the membership or we can sit back and watch the company... with the twu's assistance... pick us apart.

Me? I'd rather try and have an organization where accountability is the cornerstone of my union.

GO AMP!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Received my latest issue of TWU Express. On the inside cover it lists a lot of the people inside the twu. My question is this.

Steve Luis use to be the President of Local 514 but was not re-elected. The membership spoke by electing a FSC President. I guess old Steve peddling the failed t/a showed his true alliegance was to the international and not the membership.

Steve Luis doesn't have any elected position in Local 514.

So WHY is he listed as an International VP for the twu?

I did not get a ballot to vote for him. Did you?

twu = good old boy system of "democracy".

AMP = True Democracy.

Sign an AMP Authorization Card and remove the cancer from our craft.

hss and other twu tools: Love to read your spin on this.

Why can't I pick all three answers? They all apply.

 

[TWU informer]

You left one option out.

The TWU was founded by the Communist and the Irish Republican Army in the 1930's.

Even the first election was handed to Red Mike Quill even though O'Shea had received more votes than Quill.
For God's sake Read the following books and learn something!

"Intransit" by Joshua Freeman
And Shirley Quill's memior "Mike Quill - Himself

Nothing has changed from the founding and nothing will ever change. Then read the available minutes of the TWU Constitutional Conventions.

But this is nothing new and I have no clue what purpose this "poll" serves.

Everytime these Communist Facts were brought forth during the AMFA Drive, even AMFA Organizers would ask that I not use these facts during Power Point Presentations about the history of the TWU. Until members read and understand the history of the TWU's founding, they will never understand why change is needed. But to change to a Constitution or an Organization that wants to remove the power of the majority member Local, then I see that as not much different than what we have now, just sugar coating? All I hear is how TWU members that are bothered by the Tulsa Majority want to outsource work, spin-off, or have seperate contracts. And then they #### and complain about current lack of democracy. Isn't Democracy Majority Rule?

I really don't see much difference between the founding of the TWU, the first TWU election outcome, or current TWU members constantly in pursuit of some method to circumvent majority rule. The reason I am not much interested in AMP, or changing to a structure that removes the power of the largest Local is because stomping on majority rule is not much different than Not voting at all!

My personal opinion is that the AMP structure will eliminate the current Roll Call Vote system, that based on what I have seen and read of late, Roll Call Vote is the only thing that has kept my job and many other jobs in Tulsa. Unfortunately, without that safety net in place, I am quite sure that the line guys would have already eliminated overhaul for their own fortune. Screw THAT! Leave it the way it is until AA AMT's actually learn what unionism really is. My opinion is they couldn't handle true democracy any better than the NWA AMT's handled it. You guys can all destroy the profession and unionism after I am gone.

Even if we changed to a Democratic Union, it will take many years to successfully change over without total self destruction. The contract language is too weak to instantly switch to militant and fully democratic union. AA will pound us into the ground with that weak language. I personally no longer have the stomach or the career time left to fix this freaking membership and all their self serving beliefs. In other words, democracy will not fix STUPID!

 

[strikeforce]

Carmen,

People who get elected under AMP thinking that the twu way is still the way things will operate are in for a bitter surprise. Yes, there will be "clowns" under any organization that get elected but I believe that under the twu these "clowns" thrive because the membership doesn't feel that there is any leadership from the twu int. because the int. rewards these "clowns".

I know for a fact that the "change from within" slogan was nothing more than an empty slogan. I also know for a fact that once AMP gets certified quality UNION people will run for office and everything will change.

The simple question remains to be asked by everyone in our craft & class... do you want to continue under the twu's guidance? This is the last chance for a better future for our profession at AA. We either remove the twu and utilize the AMP Constitution FOR the membership or we can sit back and watch the company... with the twu's assistance... pick us apart.

Me? I'd rather try and have an organization where accountability is the cornerstone of my union.

GO AMP!

I agree!!!!

 

[strikeforce]

You left one option out.

The TWU was founded by the Communist and the Irish Republican Army in the 1930's.

Even the first election was handed to Red Mike Quill even though O'Shea had received more votes than Quill.
For God's sake Read the following books and learn something!

"Intransit" by Joshua Freeman
And Shirley Quill's memior "Mike Quill - Himself

Nothing has changed from the founding and nothing will ever change. Then read the available minutes of the TWU Constitutional Conventions.

But this is nothing new and I have no clue what purpose this "poll" serves.

Everytime these Communist Facts were brought forth during the AMFA Drive, even AMFA Organizers would ask that I not use these facts during Power Point Presentations about the history of the TWU. Until members read and understand the history of the TWU's founding, they will never understand why change is needed. But to change to a Constitution or an Organization that wants to remove the power of the majority member Local, then I see that as not much different than what we have now, just sugar coating? All I hear is how TWU members that are bothered by the Tulsa Majority want to outsource work, spin-off, or have seperate contracts. And then they #### and complain about current lack of democracy. Isn't Democracy Majority Rule?

I really don't see much difference between the founding of the TWU, the first TWU election outcome, or current TWU members constantly in pursuit of some method to circumvent majority rule. The reason I am not much interested in AMP, or changing to a structure that removes the power of the largest Local is because stomping on majority rule is not much different than Not voting at all!

My personal opinion is that the AMP structure will eliminate the current Roll Call Vote system, that based on what I have seen read of late is the only thing that has kept my job and many other jobs in Tulsa. Unfortunately, without that safety net in place, I am quite sure that the line guys would have already eliminated overhaul for their own fortune. Screw THAT! Leave the way it is until AA AMT's actually learn what unionism really is. My opinion is they couldn't handle true democracy any better than the NWA AMT's handled it. You guys can all destroy the profession and unionism after I am gone.

This is exactly why the Line wants seperate contracts. True unionism looks out for ALL members. Unfortunately, WE all don't live in Tulsa and have Tulsa's cost of living expenses. Therefore, Tulsa should negotiate whatever wages and benefits Tulsa based residents need to live comfortably in Tulsa. Why would you care if ORD needs an extra $2 in order to live like you?? Why should I care if LAX needs an extra $10 an hour, I don't live there.

UPS ground employees negotiate a Master contract, and then each individual local like 705 in Chicago negotiates wages and benefits for Chicago based employees. Why wouldn't you be in favor of something similar to this???? Or are you the type that wants your cake, my cake and eat it too??

 

[TWU informer]

This is exactly why the Line wants seperate contracts. True unionism looks out for ALL members. Unfortunately, WE all don't live in Tulsa and have Tulsa's cost of living expenses. Therefore, Tulsa should negotiate whatever wages and benefits Tulsa based residents need to live comfortably in Tulsa. Why would you care if ORD needs an extra $2 in order to live like you?? Why should I care if LAX needs an extra $10 an hour, I don't live there.

UPS ground employees negotiate a Master contract, and then each individual local like 705 in Chicago negotiates wages and benefits for Chicago based employees. Why wouldn't you be in favor of something similar to this???? Or are you the type that wants your cake, my cake and eat it too??

I don't care if ORD makes more than me.
In fact there was $2.55 in line premium and the line voted NO.
I voted YES.

Did you vote for or against the $2.55 in Line Premiuim? You accuse me of being against line premium pay, yet I am one of the few on here that voted YES, and I work and live here in Oklahoma.

Go bark up some other tree, because I know many in Tulsa that voted yes and had no problem with the $2.55 Line Premium. Now Bob Owens and the rest of the chest pounders has seen that reduced below $2. Congratulations.

Why don't you give me a $ amount that his NO VOTE campaign has cost you so far. Then direct your attacks in the right direction. I am curerntly down more than $15,000.00 since the NO VOTE. I have now been added to the list of those that will lose their pre-funding early retirement medical. And now, we dont even have a scheduled negotiations date. Great Job wouldnt you say?

How about you cease with the emotional and irrational outburst that blames Tulsa, I VOTED FOR THE LINE PREMIUM, Did you?

 

[strikeforce]

I don't care if ORD makes more than me.
In fact there was $2.55 in line premium and the line voted NO.
I voted YES.

Did you vote for or against the $2.55 in Line Premium? You accuse me of being against line premium pay, yet I am one of the few on here that voted YES, and I work and live here in Oklahoma.

Go bark up some other tree, because I know many in Tulsa that voted yes and had no problem with the $2.55 Line Premium. Now Bob Owens and the rest of the chest pounders has seen that reduced below $2. Congratulations.

Why don't you give me a $ amount that his NO VOTE campaign has cost you so far. Then direct your attacks in the right direction. I am currently down more than $15,000.00 since the NO VOTE. I have now been added to the list of those that will lose their pre-funding early retirement medical. And now, we dont even a scheduled negotiations date. Great Job wouldnt you say?

I voted No, not because of the $2.55 but because of the whole package....retiree medical, creation of the airline support mechanic and most importantly NO RETRO! I blast Bob Owens and my local president for eliminating the line pay increase, and I'm still waiting on Bob Owens to explain to me why the Line pay decrease and structural pay increase DON'T ADD UP?

Bottom line....I'm not blasting you for living in Tulsa, but I don't like the chest beating Tulsa guys use regarding majority rule. It just happens to be that Tulsa has a majority, but it doesn't mean the Line has to be satisfied with Tulsa wages, benefits, or work rules. According to the TWU, each local is autonomous. Therefore, let each local negotiate it's own wages and benefits. The people in that city are the ONLY ones that know what it takes to meet that city's COLA. Don't you agree?

The TWU, as a union, has very serious cultural problems. We have more in-fighting than fighting for what's ultimately more important to all of us....higher wages and benefits. We are ONE F&^ked up group, let me tell you.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Dave,

"But this is nothing new and I have no clue what purpose this "poll" serves."


The poll was meant as humor only. I could have added several more appropriate answers but thought three was enough to get people's interest.

As for your thoughts on AMP I think you are wrong. I do not believe the Line would sell out Overhaul as you think we would. This is because a union fights for the entire union. Unlike the twu that brings back a t/a that pits one part of our work group against another. Divide and conquer? Split Line from Overhaul and vice versa and BINGO! I have NEVER bought into the sewer water that spewed from burchette's lips and when people point fingers from the Line to Overhaul and Overhaul towards the Line both the company and twu laugh their collective arses off.

Roll Call Vote with AMP? Why should there ever be a Roll Call vote? We have different opinions.

"I am curerntly down more than $15,000.00 since the NO VOTE."

So you would rather have $15,000.00 in hand in exchange for the worse contract language among all the major carriers?

Back on track... why is Steve Louis an Int. VP? Does he hold any elected office in Local 514? If he doesn't why is he a Int. VP?

The twu is not democratic and I want to change that. That doesn't make AMP "militant".

 

[TWU informer]

"I am curerntly down more than $15,000.00 since the NO VOTE."

So you would rather have $15,000.00 in hand in exchange for the worse contract language among all the major carriers?

Don't we currently still have the worst language among all majors?
Yes give me the $15,000.00 nothing is changing by giving it up.

 

[strikeforce]

Even if we changed to a Democratic Union, it will take many years to successfully change over without total self destruction. The contract language is too weak to instantly switch to militant and fully democratic union. AA will pound us into the ground with that weak language. I personally no longer have the stomach or the career time left to fix this freaking membership and all their self serving beliefs. In other words, democracy will not fix STUPID!

I totally agree with that bold statement!

WE, the membership, can only blame ourselves for our failures and demise. WE allow this non-sense within the TWU to fester out of control. If you read my earlier rant to Ken, I mentioned the cancer is US, the membership, for electing clowns that are self-serving, and in those positions to rub elbows with Chicken Little hoping for INTL positions. WE put them there!!!

Just like AA, this union needs a house cleaning...top to bottom, and this includes a cultural house cleaning for the entire membership. BTW, most of your craft or trade unions like plumbers, electricians or carpenters wouldn't tolerate the non-sense that happens in the airline industry.

 

[iluvaa]

I don't care if ORD makes more than me.
In fact there was $2.55 in line premium and the line voted NO.
I voted YES.

Did you vote for or against the $2.55 in Line Premiuim? You accuse me of being against line premium pay, yet I am one of the few on here that voted YES, and I work and live here in Oklahoma.

Go bark up some other tree, because I know many in Tulsa that voted yes and had no problem with the $2.55 Line Premium. Now Bob Owens and the rest of the chest pounders has seen that reduced below $2. Congratulations.

Why don't you give me a $ amount that his NO VOTE campaign has cost you so far. Then direct your attacks in the right direction. I am curerntly down more than $15,000.00 since the NO VOTE. I have now been added to the list of those that will lose their pre-funding early retirement medical. And now, we dont even have a scheduled negotiations date. Great Job wouldnt you say?

How about you cease with the emotional and irrational outburst that blames Tulsa, I VOTED FOR THE LINE PREMIUM, Did you?

I voted for it (another tulsa vote) im all for high cost areas making more. hard to bash me there isnt it

 

[Buck]

I voted for it (another tulsa vote) im all for high cost areas making more. hard to bash me there isnt it

Thanks for exercising your right to vote. However the majority did not vote for it, what is to done about that?

If the negotiators would just establish all differences in compensation for OH and the Line as GEO Pay then there would be less to negotiate.

 

[odie01]

Just like AA, this union needs a house cleaning...top to bottom, and this includes a cultural house cleaning for the entire membership. BTW, most of your craft or trade unions like plumbers, electricians or carpenters wouldn't tolerate the non-sense that happens in the airline industry.

How can you clean house from the top down if you can't vote or re-call the top officials. This is getting old......I would bet that if their was no overtime and our work rules were enforced, AMP, or any other union besides the twu would be a shoe in. Weak minded people support the twu, because they are lazy and can't think for themselves. I'm in this till January, if we can't get it done, I will have no regrets because I tried, unlike other people, who would rather rant on forums and hope somebody does something about it. That's what's wrong with society today, nobody wants to get involved.