Qatar Airways boss accuses Delta of flying 'crap' planes

[WorldTraveler]

^^^this^^^

the gig in the middle east is about up.... not just for the subsidized airline industry but because of the fact that the world is awash in oil.

The Middle East countries have a lot to be thinking about - they just aren't going to succeed by dumping capacity into the market without consequences any more than the US refuses to allow other industries to do the same.

 

[eolesen]

It's not negative about DL -- it's a positive for someone else. QR is launching service where they see an opening.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fact is that DL led the charge and has been the public face of this, so they shouldn't be surprised when the retaliation is into their home base.

Clearly, BA's neutrality on the topic has tempered what AA is going to say and do. Wil Ris was one of the panelists at last week's CAPA event, and his comments were extremely toned down from the rhetoric from when the first press blitz started. UA didn't even show up. DL was there, and EY was there to defend themselves. F

What I've heard from people in the audience is that DL's campaign for consultations probably won't result in anything except perhaps a cutting back on fifth freedom services (e.g. FCO-JFK), and maybe a limited carve-out for cargo to accommodate FDX and UPS.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and when retaliation is done using government subsidies, it isn't a surprise that the US government will step in.

Given that the process is far from finished, it is pure speculation to argue what the outcome might be.

in other industries, trade dumping has resulted in barriers for other companies in the industry that have been affected.

The US government is very capable of imposing trade penalties specifically against the products that are being subsidized or dumped into the market.

and it is no surprise that FedEx opposes what the passenger carriers are doing... they have defined the market for small package services worldwide and dominated it in ways that US passenger carriers have never been able to - even if they wanted.

what you and others can't accept is that subsidies in one industry cannot be separated from what is going on in other industries - airlines vs. airframe manufacturers or even some companies within one industry at the expense of other companies.

Even if the limitation is no ME3 5th freedom service between the US and Europe, that IS a major victory.

 

[topDawg]

It's not negative about DL -- it's a positive for someone else. QR is launching service where they see an opening.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fact is that DL led the charge and has been the public face of this, so they shouldn't be surprised when the retaliation is into their home base.

Clearly, BA's neutrality on the topic has tempered what AA is going to say and do. Wil Ris was one of the panelists at last week's CAPA event, and his comments were extremely toned down from the rhetoric from when the first press blitz started. UA didn't even show up. DL was there, and EY was there to defend themselves. F

What I've heard from people in the audience is that DL's campaign for consultations probably won't result in anything except perhaps a cutting back on fifth freedom services (e.g. FCO-JFK), and maybe a limited carve-out for cargo to accommodate FDX and UPS.

Pretty much what I expect. 
 
I do not see Obama and Co. doing anything big about this. (now if it had anything to do with Southwest...... he would ban EK/EY/QR from the country) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

keep in mind that it was the DOT that was quoted as saying this was the worst case of subsidies in the airline industry they have ever seen.

THIS DOT.

The OBAMA DOT.

You don't make those kinds of statements if you don't intend to do anything.

and WN has said they support the efforts to hold the ME3 accountable. They recognize the danger to the US airline industry if the ME3 bulldoze the big 3 int'l carriers and then take aim at the domestic market because there is no competition left.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

The US government is very capable of imposing trade penalties specifically against the products that are being subsidized or dumped into the market.

 

 
Yep, just look at the wonderful things they've done with sugar price supports since before we were born.
 
How much extra have you paid in your lifetime for every product that contained sugar/sweetner?
 
Akbar Al Baker is coming for you!

 

[topDawg]

keep in mind that it was the DOT that was quoted as saying this was the worst case of subsidies in the airline industry they have ever seen.

THIS DOT.

The OBAMA DOT.

You don't make those kinds of statements if you don't intend to do anything.

and WN has said they support the efforts to hold the ME3 accountable. They recognize the danger to the US airline industry if the ME3 bulldoze the big 3 int'l carriers and then take aim at the domestic market because there is no competition left.

dude you know very little about this administration if you really expect them to do anything. Obama's game is play golf, let everyone in the Middle east walk all over us and try as hard as he can to f&@k over Israel without causing the population to go crazy.
 
They aren't going to a damn thing. Maybe a little wrist slap and no more Europe-US flying but thats it. We have a president without a spine.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I doubt if he is coming after me... not much I can do one way or another.

and yes, there are a number of agricultural products that are provided with price supports (subsidies) in many countries. For the US, milk is also a very large subsidy - maybe larger than sugar but I'm not sure.

But those subsidies are known and they are factored into trade agreements.... the whole issue with subsidies by/for the ME3 is that they are not known or admitted and absolutely do influence competition.

When the ME3 touts how great of a product they offer and how low their fares are, it isn't hard to see those things are possible when subsidies are involved.

US trade policy on products has long been able to isolate the appropriate product and make the appropriate corrective actions in the marketplace.

Foreign airlines have long been state run and often subsidized.

what is different today is that the ME3 are using MASSIVE subsidies to buy huge numbers of longhaul widebody aircraft that are being used to shift the economic center of the global air transportation system.

Lawmakers and a whole lot of other people can see the danger and are acting and I believe there will be substantive changes come out of this effort.

and dawg, while I don't disagree with you in principle, Obama is set to give the White House over to the Republicans because so many people see so much corruption and so many failed issues and the best candidate his party can find is one of the very same kind.

When even his outgoing Democratic Senate leader is willing to go toe to toe with Obama and the courts are sidelining his projects while one inquiry after another finds massive failure in one part of the government after another, your assessment of how easily Obama will steamroll the rest of the US might not be as accurate as you think - and we can all hope at least on this issue.

 

[topDawg]

I doubt if he is coming after me... not much I can do one way or another.

and yes, there are a number of agricultural products that are provided with price supports (subsidies) in many countries. For the US, milk is also a very large subsidy - maybe larger than sugar but I'm not sure.

But those subsidies are known and they are factored into trade agreements.... the whole issue with subsidies by/for the ME3 is that they are not known or admitted and absolutely do influence competition.

When the ME3 touts how great of a product they offer and how low their fares are, it isn't hard to see those things are possible when subsidies are involved.

US trade policy on products has long been able to isolate the appropriate product and make the appropriate corrective actions in the marketplace.

Foreign airlines have long been state run and often subsidized.

what is different today is that the ME3 are using MASSIVE subsidies to buy huge numbers of longhaul widebody aircraft that are being used to shift the economic center of the global air transportation system.

Lawmakers and a whole lot of other people can see the danger and are acting and I believe there will be substantive changes come out of this effort.

and dawg, while I don't disagree with you in principle, Obama is set to give the White House over to the Republicans because so many people see so much corruption and so many failed issues and the best candidate his party can find is one of the very same kind.

When even his outgoing Democratic Senate leader is willing to go toe to toe with Obama and the courts are sidelining his projects while one inquiry after another finds massive failure in one part of the government after another, your assessment of how easily Obama will steamroll the rest of the US might not be as accurate as you think - and we can all hope at least on this issue.

I wouldn't say that just yet. 
 
So far the republicans have yet to put fourth a name big enough or if they have a big enough name someone who doesn't suck to run yet. 
 
If they Romney or McSuck us again then we are going to get to enjoy the third term for Hillary 
 
 
but having said that, none of that has to do with Obama growing some balls. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and of course the real issue is whether there are really merits to the claim that the ME3 have been subsidized.

Since the US3's report said that Qatar and Etihad had heavier subsidies although they did not let Emirates off the hook, Emirates is now the one that is most vocal in saying they aren't subsidized.

They just reported a healthy profit including giving more than half of their net profit to the Dubai government apparently as proof they are not receiving interest free anything.

Of coruse the question is when did they last pay a dividend to their owners - the UAE government.

and it doesn't change that Etihad and Qatar haven't been willing to make the statements regarding their subsidies that Emirates has made.

The ME3 wouldn't be near as much of a threat if it was just Emirates.

 

[robbedagain]

I believe one of the 3..Emirates? is suppose to start MCO service soon.    Being the largest A380 and B777 operators  calls into question bout subsidizies and just how much etc is involved

 

[WorldTraveler]

It is Emirates, Robbed, that is starting MCO.

the size of the airplanes doesn't "undo" the amount of subsidy that the ME3 receives. The 380 wouldn't exist were it not for the ME3 and specifically Emirates that has bought it.

and Emirates has used the excuse of buying 380s as justification for gaining access to Europe's top airports where it has and will significantly harm the European carriers. but they will fare better than a lot of smaller airlines in Africa and Asia that will simply disappear because they cannot compete against the ME3 which have far more impact on their markets than they will on the US or even Europe.

The US might be the ones that are finally speaking up and there might be some slowdown of ME3 growth in the US but other countries will pay a much higher price when they wake up and realize their airline industry has been decimated

and ultimately, Airbus and Boeing will realize that the sales that they chased with the 380 and the 777X will have just shifted demand from other airlines in the world which will shrink or die and can no longer buy airlines to the ME3 which will eventually run out of growth options as long as the EU, US, and Asia Pacific countries prohibit the ME3 from flying from the US to Europe and East Asia.

 

[robbedagain]

I do have to think that eventually having so many wide bodies that down the road EK will be hurt probably more so than say Qatar air and Etihad  much more so if the world goes into a recession  and or if losses start

 

[WorldTraveler]

it is hard to believe that there are really that many passengers that are flying over the Middle East but they are pushing their networks as far and as fast as they can.

You are correct, robbed, that there are limits and economic downturns will eventually impact them but I suspect that there will be a whole lot of smaller airlines in the world that will be knocked off before that happens.

When there are JUST the big 3 or so of Europe and perhaps a slightly larger number of large global Asian carriers, then perhaps the world will realize that the concerns that the US3 raised were real.

and just as it is for LCCs in any part of the world, a big part of the ME3's cost advantage comes from rapid growth. when that growth slows down, their unit costs (CASM) start going up.

and then you have to consider that the world is still not producing anywhere near the number of pilots to support the current level of int'l flying and as pilot salaries go up in other parts of the world including China and East Asia, the ME3 will find it harder and harder to find qualified pilots.

 

[eolesen]

If crap hits the fan, EK definitely has a lot farther to fall than either QR or EY.

QR has the benefits of being tied into oneworld, while EY has built up its own network of partners thru equity investments (similar to what DL is now doing with VS, G4, and AM). Both have a 30/70 split between narrowbodies and widebodies.

EK is all widebody. They have no partners. They do their own IT in-house. They have this mindset that they can go it alone.

History has proven that is a really bad approach.