Qatar Air CEO: Delta CEO Uses Terrorism Rhetoric to ‘Hide His Inefficiency

[WorldTraveler]

FL grew in ATL post 9/11 - just like the rest of the LCCs did elsewhere while the legacies were reeling from 9/11 - but FL's growth came to a halt very soon after DL entered BK and was reversed by the time DL and NW merged.

FL sold out to WN because FL had no place to grows and continued to look for growth in markets outside of ATL that overlapped WN. WN decided to eliminate the competition and in so doing have taken FL's operation in ATL down to the smallest size it has been since before 9/11.

meanwhile, WN is taking enormous share from AA at DFW - which is what I predicted while LCCs are or will do the same thing to/from Latin America. AA has had the luxury of having higher market share in its most profitable markets - LHR, DFW, MIA, Latin America - because of barriers to entry by competitors - not because it had been successful in competing against other carriers and maintaining that share - which is far more indicative of what DL and even US did in ATL, CLT, PHL, DTW, MSP, and SLC.

when barriers to entry fall, competition will come - and that is exactly what has happened to AA.

and as much as you want to hope, the ME3 could fly to ATL, DTW, or MSP - but they don't. you can wish all day long that they would but they don't. When they do, let us know. One or more of them do, however, serve NYC, ORD, DFW, and MIA.

for now, DL does a better job of maintaining the revenue in its key markets than either AA or UA and that translates directly into its profitability.

and while the level of competition in DL and UA markets is stable, it is growing dramatically in AA markets.

and despite what Qatar says, DL is more efficient at generating the best revenues in the US industry and at running the best operation than its US int'l peers. those are facts which you can try to avoid but which are true nonetheless.

 

[eolesen]

Your post about the $5 billion is misleading 700. That payment was direct compensation for the airlines not being able to operate due to the federal order shutting down the airspace. It is in no way comparable to any direct subsidy that the ME3 receive from their governments. If the $10billion in loan guarantees only a little over a billion was paid out, and many airlines saw their applications denied.

 
Absolutely correct on the direct compensation for shutting down airspace and over the ATSB's loan successes.

A subsidy doesn't get paid back with interest.

 

If he is so well spoken he would not have put his foot in his mouth

 
I will say it's rare for any company to have to apologize for its CEO, with perhaps the exception of Ryanair. 

I think where DL should be concerned is when a ME3 carrier starts service to DTW.  Which I'm kind of surprised none of them have done so, yet.

 

Frugal Im really surprised that none of the ME3 has begun service to DTW which I believe has a very high population ME folks.

 
How much disposable income and time off do all those people of ME origin have?... Probably not a whole lot.
 

What is worth noting is if the remaining 3 or 4 people who bother to respond to the troll would cease and desist, the forum would be a far better place.

Yep. Do you part, folks. You'll be a lot happier in the long run.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Feel free to ignore. I don't ignore anyone. you are one of many who say they ignore me but keep responding.

Tim Clark of EK was likely right that Anderson made the 9/11 comment intentionally and for effect

Doesn't change that Anderson might be more vocal but AA and UA are very much happy to have Anderson out front to draw attention to an issue that the press only cares about when dramatics are involved...which is likely why RA said it...and no one here can really ignore me

 

[topDawg]

and Parker or Kirby have s.aid that AA would return to India if the fares were higher - and it is precisely because of AI and the ME3 that fares to India will never return. Given that the Gov't of India knows that AI is finished if they don't continue to heavily subsidize AI, there is little to no chance that the GOI will back away.

so you are right that AI is part of the problem but AI is about one country. The ME3 is about a region.

and the Euro flags have competed with AI for years so they could if they wanted to.

the fare environment to India was better for DL because the AMS-BOM is/was (until it ends) operated as part of the JV.

DL partially shot itself in the foot with its internally imposed flight routing restrictions that add an extra 1-2 hours to the flight time. a weak fare environment compounded with 15-25% higher costs is no recipe for success.

I'm not arguing with DL's decision - they have people that can evaluate the risks - but the overflight decision has compounded a fare problem.

and thank you for sticking your nose into my pi78ing contest with commavia and LDV but I can stick up for myself 0 and they are fairly easy to whip anyway.

the UK economy is in a better shape than continental Europe and France is notably worse off than the UK or Germany.

but this whole ME3 issue doesn't isolate the UK or any one country from what is going on, including AA vs DL vs UA.

the whole reason why AA, DL, and UA are all addressing the issue is to make it clear to Washington that the future of US aviation really is at risk if the ME3 are allowed to continue to pick off one route after another, just exactly what they have started to do with JFK=MXP.

GIven that AA's TATL network is far more concentrated around a smaller number of cities on both sides of the Atlantic, it will take much less effort by the ME3 to hurt AA than it will DL or UA.

DL has shown a better understanding o f the major strategic issues facing the industry nad has gotten in front of them but AA and UA are not unaware of what is going on or their need to respond to the issue as well.

LDV can try to reduce this to an AF vs BA/ DL vs AA issue but it is far larger than that and his attempts only prove that he doesn't understand the issue at all.

I don't disagree. 
Of course all of these carriers are the problem. 
 
 
My issue with Anderson though is he keeps giving the ME3 all this s**t but he is in bed with a carrier that.....has it ever made money? (AZ) They are just as much a drain on the industry as the ME3. IMO. 
 

yes NYC, MIA, PHL, ORD and DFW are very small cities compared to:
 
NYC, ATL, DTW, MSP

Actually when you really look at it, they all have pluses and minuses.
 
first, As much as LDV thinks (stupidly) Atlanta sucks........the ATL hub is a printing press. AA and UA would trip over each other to have it if Delta gave it up. While Miami is the king of all kings to Latin Am/South am etc. Its a very poor hub to Europe of the US(and clearly Asia)
 
In the NE Delta is the largest carrier AA is a distant fourth......but I am not sure this is a bad thing. They have a solid hub in PHL that is profitable and has pretty good O&D on its own. A nice footing in NYC to get what they need. 
 
The same is said about ORD. I don't think Delta would trade its DTW hub for AA's place in CHI. DET has a good O&D base and a fairly strong corporate market. Its not CHI but Delta is all alone. 
 
just some food for thought. Delta's network might not be super sexy, but as we have seen the carrier with the best network (United) it doesn't see to be what drives profits. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not sure why AeroFlop or Argentinias or Saudi are in SkyTeam other than that Pan Am managed to develop a relationship with Flop and DL has maintained it. Given both carriers dominate the US-Russia market, it would seem stupid to let them walk away.

Alitalia is in Skyteam because AF had enough interest in trying to protect its flank that they invested in them.

even with that gone now, DL and AZ dominate the US-Italy market. It makes more sense to maintain a partnership with your largest foreign competitor than to let them go with someone else.

AZ doesn't have the costs to undercut DL and be profitable. They can't be profitable with DL competitive fares.

AZ is NOT a threat to pricing as the ME3 are.

 

[topDawg]

I'm not sure why AeroFlop or Argentinias or Saudi are in SkyTeam other than that Pan Am managed to develop a relationship with Flop and DL has maintained it. Given both carriers dominate the US-Russia market, it would seem stupid to let them walk away.

Alitalia is in Skyteam because AF had enough interest in trying to protect its flank that they invested in them.

even with that gone now, DL and AZ dominate the US-Italy market. It makes more sense to maintain a partnership with your largest foreign competitor than to let them go with someone else.

AZ doesn't have the costs to undercut DL and be profitable. They can't be profitable with DL competitive fares.

AZ is NOT a threat to pricing as the ME3 are.

Yes this is right, but the problem here is AZ doesn't seem to give a single crap about being profitable. Its something they talk about doing but haven't done so in a long long time. 
 
So when you are willing to operate on a loss due to tax money, AF money and now one of the ME3's money you are a threat to pricing. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

AZ wasn't bailed out this time by the EU... they had to sell equity to the Arabs.

The EU is getting tough right at the time when the situation there is getting a whole lot tougher.

that is precisely why the ME3 are doing all they can to push on the EU3 while expanding into the US.

It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the US and EU will decide that enough is enough... Canada has been willing to tell the ME3 that they don't have unlimited access to Canada... and guess what? AC flies some of the routes the US airlines would if their markets weren't being trashed by the ME3

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

AZ wasn't bailed out this time by the EU... they had to sell equity to the Arabs.
 

 
I would guess that AZ has been bailed out by the Italian government (directly and indirectly) so many times previously that ultimately the bureaucrats in BRU had to finally say something so AZ now had to sell some equity to the Arabs.

 

[topDawg]

AZ wasn't bailed out this time by the EU... they had to sell equity to the Arabs.

They weren't this time. 
they were 757397089347938457345789357345789304578934758934758923745890735073489573891457890 times before. 
Then AF got in on the action. Stupid plan. One dumpster fire trying to run another dumpster fire. 
 
The EY is now in the game, but is AB is any example of what is going to happen, AZ will keep burning money but its okay as long as they just keep feeding EY. 
 

The EU is getting tough right at the time when the situation there is getting a whole lot tougher.

 Meh I don't think the EU will ever be tough on it unless the US does something completely legal then off to the WTO we go(then the US or EU don't care what the WTO has to say and around and around we go) 
 
If AF or LH or BA ever start to fail their governments will be there to catch them. Way to much pride and trying to show up the US. All the EU is doing is making it so that its not just out in the open as it has been in the past. Gotta hide the money a little bit now. 

that is precisely why the ME3 are doing all they can to push on the EU3 while expanding into the US.

I don't disagree. Like I said, the ME3 aren't the only problem. Delta works with plenty of carriers who are a lot like the ME3. 
 
the problem is Delta doesn't care about them because they aren't nearly the threat the ME3 are. MU or CZ or AZ aren't about to order 200 77W and 100 380s to fly all over the world 
 
 

It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the US and EU will decide that enough is enough... Canada has been willing to tell the ME3 that they don't have unlimited access to Canada... and guess what? AC flies some of the routes the US airlines would if their markets weren't being trashed by the ME3

 Pretty sure Germany has also told EK to piss off. 
However I am not sure the US will do what is best for the airlines. It is pretty rare that they do what is right for the airlines. Lot of politics gets in the way in this country. 
 Just look at the **** show that is HND. If the government cared about the US carriers JL and ANA would have limited access to the US with their HND slots till Japan played ball with day time slots. Not only that but the .gov wouldn't give out the 4 night time slots based on "customers" (ie make AA fly JFK-HND or DL fly DTW-HND that never had a chance in hell) 
 
So I don't have high hopes that the ME3 will see much push back here. Europe.....I do. the EU countries will, on their own push back. Like I said I believe Germany has toll EK to piss off a few times when they asked for more slots. 

I would guess that AZ has been bailed out by the Italian government (directly and indirectly) so many times previously that ultimately the bureaucrats in BRU had to finally say something so AZ now had to sell some equity to the Arabs.

I don't think the EU said much. IIRC it simply came down to seeing that AZ was a huge mess a big piece of it was they were changing the network very few years to keep voters happy. Pretty sure Italy still owns a part of AZ.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there is absolutely no doubt that the DOT has had under the current administration the worst policy of protecting US legacy carriers and I am also not hopeful that the US will act correctly until there is a change at 1600 Penn.

that said, there are countries like Germany as you note that are smart enough to know what is good for their airlines.

France is too deep with Airbus to be able to separate the value of air transportation compared to building subsidized and money losing A380s for the ME3.

and no, the ME3 are not the same as AZ and other money losing airlines. the ME3 are able to cut fares using their subsidies and they offer a decent product... all of the other money-losing airlines are subsidized just to maintain market fares and they are not quality carriers.

that is a big difference which will never make the ME3 like other carriers.

and DL can and has managed to do very well in markets like Italy even with money-losing carriers there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

btw, despite DL's association with AZ, or perhaps because of it, DL is adding almost enough capacity to ATL-FCO to be double daily in the market - a 333 plus a 763.

and for this summer, again, DL will be the largest carrier between the US and Italy, are adding more seats than any other carrier, and between DL and AZ, Skyteam has half of the seats in the market - in a joint venture.

that is a remarkably different situation than what exists in any market with the ME3

 

[700UW]

And looks like someone is firing back:
 
http://www.arabianae...dy-critics.html
 
In a hard-hitting interview with global financial news service Reuters, Emirates Airline president, Sir Tim Clark, has called for the right of reply to the 55-page dossier prepared by three American airlines claiming unfair subsidies and presented to the US government. - See more at: http://www.arabianae...h.xKMaq6PH.dpuf

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't expect Tim Clark is going to roll over any more than DL is.

Difference is that DL is a US citizen; neither EK or Tim Clark is.

just because a US citizen has provided communication to an official of the US government does not make it public material.

further, your continued antagonism of DL interest on this issue shows how on yet another issue you and the IAM are not interested in the interests of DL employees who are smart enough to realize that the ME3 is fully devoted to gaining access to and taking revenue in the N. Atlantic market from US carriers - at the cost of DL jobs.

Even if you really personally support the ME3, given your clear position of advocacy for the IAM, you would be smart to shut your trap about the ME3 or at least put on a fake "I hope the US3 wins" face.

once again, this is not about DL or Tim Clark. It is about the US big 3 - AA, DL, and UA - who jointly delivered the report to the US government.

If you had half a functioning brain - which is highly questionable - you would desist from your cheerleading for causes that are clearly contrary to your own current constituents which includes US3 employees as well as DL FAs who you would love to represent but who are not about to harm their own future by supporting an organization that is working against them - whether it be for Boeing employees or the ME3.

 

[700UW]

DL is a US Citizen?
 
Um no, its a US based corporation.

Does DL have a Social Security #?
 
Your reaching World Fraudster.
 
Keep changing and deflecting the topic at hand.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you have no clue what you are talking about which is par for the course.

Yes, DL is a US citizen. So are AA and UA and most other US airlines.

you would do well to read "46 U.S. Code § 50501 - Entities deemed citizens of the United States" before you call other people frauds.


your statement here is as stupid as your argument that Defined Contribution Plans are not pensions even the IRS and Dept. of Labor say they are.

You continue to be the best advertisement that DL could ask for to prove how bad the IAM is for DL employees.