Pilot job action?!

[blue collar]

Seems to me you just validated my position that there are sustained differences in pay levels between airlines, even if you narrow your results just to legacy/network carriers which is AA's closest peer set.

The notion that low pay rates at one carrier will bring down the industry pay levels in that classification cannot be shown to be valid.

Yes there is, why do you think AA was getting paid as low as they are? Because US went bankrupt and drove the wages down. The wages at any airline affect the 'market rate'.

 

[Bob Owens]

If one day a flight crew makes an issue out of something that they wouldn't have last week then that's on them not us. If a pilot chooses to call us out for a leaky coffee maker before departure or wait until he lands at the next station to write it up then that's on him

If a pilot admitted that he knew the coffee maker was leaking but decided not to report it till the next flight how would the FAA look upon that?

 

[Bob Owens]

Seems to me you just validated my position that there are sustained differences in pay levels between airlines, even if you narrow your results just to legacy/network carriers which is AA's closest peer set.

The notion that low pay rates at one carrier will bring down the industry pay levels in that classification cannot be shown to be valid.

Wrong. The difference used to be in pennies with the highest guy being the last one to settle a contract, now the last one to settle is around $20/hr below the top guy who settled a few years ago. WN has already been talking about how the AA contract will hurt their ability to pay their mechanics fair wages.

 

[LAX AMT]

If a pilot admitted that he knew the coffee maker was leaking but decided not to report it till the next flight how would the FAA look upon that?

Don't be coy. You and I both know how it goes on the line and on the gate and how things go and don't go.

 

[Bob Owens]

Don't be coy. You and I both know how it goes on the line and on the gate and how things go and don't go.

Exactly, now answer the question.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob,
if there is a sustained difference in pay between carriers NOW, then how can you logically argue that if AA goes into BK 2, it will pull the rest of the industry down to the same level. I understand market wages but it is obvious that other carriers have chosen to pay their mechanics higher despite AA's lower levels. If AA mechanics are already the lowest paid, those other carriers have had the opportunity to bring their pay down to AA levels for quite some time but they haven't.
I don't disagree that the effect will be downward on wages- but it won't force all carriers down to AA rates.

Our advisor working with the UCC (highly paid and well known) said that one of the big UCC members forgot to turn his microphone off and began speaking to another party nearby and it was heard by everyone.

No surprise, it's exactly what APA knew what they were dealing with even though we were supposed to be just another "equal" member of the committee.

incredible...ranks right up there w/ throwing gasoline on a raging fire.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
if there is a sustained difference in pay between carriers NOW, then how can you logically argue that if AA goes into BK 2, it will pull the rest of the industry down to the same level. I understand market wages but it is obvious that other carriers have chosen to pay their mechanics higher despite AA's lower levels. If AA mechanics are already the lowest paid, those other carriers have had the opportunity to bring their pay down to AA levels for quite some time but they haven't.
I don't disagree that the effect will be downward on wages- but it won't force all carriers down to AA rates.

incredible...ranks right up there w/ throwing gasoline on a raging fire.

UAL just signed their contract on Dec 31st 2011, they started negotiations for a new one this month. Why do you think UAL went for such a short trem (besides integrating CAL)? While those carriers may not be able to pull wages down as far as what the ATD was able to deliver to AA, due to the fact that Line Maint is the majority at those carriers and even here at AA Line maint voted 3 out of four against the AA deal will most definately suppress mechanics wages for years to come.

 

[LAX AMT]

Exactly, now answer the question.

Self explanatory Bob. You've seen and I've seen it.

 

[ContUNITEus]

As I am reading these reports of the supposed AA employees' slowdown, I cannot help but sympathize with the employees. I think that in general, employees that are treated good at a company, give at least 101% percent to their jobs - always trying to save the day when the need arises.

I have seen it though at US Airways (well, mostly at the America West side of things) in the F/A group, that employees are unwilling to give an inch more than what they are required contractually to give. There is almost this sentiment of satisfaction, if the company winds up in mayhem on any particular day. It's almost like the want the operation to fail, and when it does, the employees cannot help but gloat about it.

Anytime a company gets away with implementing draconian work rules and pay cuts outside what they normally would do, I can understand why employees would feel also the need to cut their efforts to help it out. In my opinion, airlines do often manage to recover from irregular operations, only because of the sacrifices that the employees make from time to time. Employees that are treated good would go as far as helping out their companies financially. We saw this clearly when the employees of AA assisted their company with the previous voluntary pay cuts - only to be stiffed by the executives awarding themselves bonuses a few months later.

AA as well as US Airways, and well - probably all major airlines at this point (even Lufthansa), started this "we're gonna screw you over" campaign. I perfectly understand the "no-more-good-will" attitude of employees.

I hope that the AA employees succeed. Don't get yourselves in trouble though; you know the law is always on the side of corporations.

Good luck

 

[FWAAA]

AA released a statement blasting the pilots:

American Airlines (AA) issued a statement Thursday afternoon blasting its pilots for causing hundreds of flight cancellations and delays this week.

AA, which this week sent out layoff warning notices to 11,000 employees (ATW Daily News, Sept. 19), said in the statement that flight disruptions this week “are primarily due to the significant increase in maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Additionally, continued higher-than-normal sick usage by pilots—which has been up more than 20% year-over-year and has been elevated for months—impacts the availability of reserve pilots, which can ultimately lead to cancellations. Our pilot staffing—without the recent actions regarding maintenance write-ups and the continued increase in sick time—is adequate to meet our scheduling needs and recalling pilots from furlough would not be needed.”

http://atwonline.com/operations-maintenance/news/american-says-disruptive-pilots-causing-flight-delays-cancellations-0920?NL=ATW-04&Issue=ATW-04_20120920_ATW-04_974&YM_RID

 

[WorldTraveler]

ok.... Bob. I think we agree that AA's actions will depress mechanic wages overall but there will be carriers that will not pay wages as low as what AA offers.... for those who are young enough to start over and who want to stay in aviation, it is worth it to jump ship than to see wages at AA remain stagnant over the long-term.

 

[737823]

If AA thrives with their BK induced concessions how will that affect the rest of the mechanics in the industry? Do you feel it would be positive? I dont because if AA thrives it will only put pressure on those mechanics to match the concessions that AA was able to get, and if they wont give them then the Airlines will simply stall, like AA did, and either file for BK again, threaten to file, or request release and get the President to issue a PEB. The PEB will simply look at the AA contract and say "How can your employer compete with that? " and grant the concessions. We've even had Non-union mechanics from Jet Blue tell our guys "Thanks for Fu$$%$g us, what the hell were you guys thinking?" Thats why I believe our Pilots rejected the deal, and we should have, if they end up in a PEB the PEB will look at prevailing wages and terms which would be United and Delta. But for mechanics the deal is already done, if UAL goes into a PEB we already lowered the bar, howver if AA Liquidated it would not be considered by the PEB. So, as far as whats best for the profession, liquidation of AA, while it would no doubt be traumatic and disruptive for the mechanics at AA, would be a better outcome for the profession as a whole than allowing a business plan based on super low wages for mechanics to succeed.

Bob I really wish I could understand your perspective and I'm trying hard to read and piece together all you wrote here. You are assuming the capacity that AA has in place would be replaced by the acquiring carrier(s) which would not necessarily happen. At the very least some may say your desires to see AA liquidate are selfish as you disregarding the dire implications for other employees and workgroups. What would happen to all the agents, FAs, pilots, ground workers, suppliers, and contractors of AA? It is beyond belief that you somehow think AA coming out of this restructuring and thrive how it would be adverse to your profession. Other carriers aren't looking to match the concessions AA has obtained much like AA didn't seek deep concessions after the RPA up until they filed November 29, 2011. I know you probably feel otherwise but I can't understand how as an employee you hope AA doesn't become profitable and return to a position of growth, leadership, and innovation like in decades past.

I dont know where the story about ineligible votes started from but I havent seen anything that supports it. The fact is it doesnt matter because even if the deal was voted down the International has the final say and they say it passed and is ratified. Ratification votes are not held to the same standards as elections, there is no recourse as far as challenging the vote so even if it could somehow be proven that more people voted NO than YES it doesnt change the fact that the International ratified the contract.

Well if that's the case its time to get a new representation. Seems the international has other priorities though, and I'm also not sure things would be better had you faced abrogation and the term sheet. Let's see how things play out with the pilots before making any conclusions.

All I can say is dont expect things to get better at AA. Even if AA puts out numbers saying things are better. When you treat your workers as they do you cant expect the same performance that competitors get who treat their workers much better. Sure many of us will stay because at our age its easier to stay than it is to leave and start over again but if the fire, the passion to perform, is gone, its gone, and no amount of threats will relight it. They can hire twice as many Supervisors, it wont help, because the more they take, the less we have to lose and the less interest we take in making things work. Gordon Bethune found that out twenty years ago when he realized you cant cut wages to profitability, I think he said "You can make pizza so cheap nobody will buy it". Management went too far. They were pigs, and pigs get slaughtered.

Strangely most of the agents and FAs I've been dealing with have been surprisingly upbeat and professional despite the challenges the company is facing now. The AA pilot friend I have has said things have gone downhill very quickly and likely won't be getting better anytime soon. Not sure why you are talking about cutting wages, some workgroups got pay increases but had changes in work rules to increase productivity.

Josh

 

[AANOTOK]

Not sure why you are talking about cutting wages, some workgroups got pay increases but had changes in work rules to increase productivity.

Josh

Josh, with all due respect, you had better start learning how to read contracts and not take someones word for it. Any workgroup that got a pay raise (and mine, Fleet, did not) lost that increase in givebacks, by a bunch.
My premiums in health insurance alone are going up by $292 dollars a month. And if wouldn't have been for the infamous "me too" clause, that would have been on top of a pay cut! It wasn't just about workrule changes Josh, it was much much more!!

 

[wings396]

Josh isn't in the industry, so he doesn't understand zilch about the contract or the concessions. He usually just complains about service, so he is way out of his league here. He is a big financial guy if that tells you anything.....

 

[FWAAA]

From everyone's favorite former CEO who walks on water:

In each instance, the airline went to court to force pilots to speed things up. Crandall said American might be forced to do the same thing this time.

"It is perfectly obvious that this is a job action by the pilots," Crandall said. "I think it's childish, it's self-defeating and it's harmful to the company and to other employees."

American is particularly vulnerable to long-term damage if passengers choose other carriers because it is already in bankruptcy and weak compared with bigger rivals United and Delta, he said.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Labor-strife-threatens-American-Airlines-schedule-3881682.php#page-2